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Altitude JEOPARDY
#10265 01/25/11 08:02 AM
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The topics of altitude, AMS, acclimation, etc. have been prominent on the boards this week, and it got me thinking about how capricious and unpredictable altitude illnesses can be.

A few years ago I had the opportunity to speak with the leader of a group of about 25 people who I'm pretty certain spend more time above 14,000 feet (above sea level) year in and year out than any other group of Americans - thousands and thousands of hours per year. He told me that his biggest challenge, other than the obvious weather events at such an elevation, was dealing with altitude-related issues such as AMS, even though many members of his group consistently spend a significant percentage of their entire year above 14K'. That struck me as probably the best example of how AMS should always be a concern at elevation, regardless of an individual's prior lack of issues.

Anyone want to venture a guess as to what group of people I'm talking about? And, no - flight is not a player here. These are folks with their feet planted firmly on the ground.

There's one board member who should absolutely nail this without a second thought - I would ask that person (you know who you are) to hold off just a bit till others have had a chance to demonstrate their deductive abilities smile .

Last edited by Bulldog34; 01/25/11 11:40 AM. Reason: Clarified elevation to above sea level - some people think I'm being tricky!
Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
KevinR #10269 01/25/11 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: KevinR
Have often thought that one of most important safety precautions is to choose your hiking/climbing companions carefully.

Professional guides don't have that luxury.



On the contrary, they have that responsibility. Have you seen the medical history forms they require from clients?

Dale B. Dalrymple

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10270 01/25/11 08:48 AM
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> a group of about 25 people who I'm pretty certain spend more time above 14,000 year in and year out than any other group of Americans - thousands and thousands of hours per year.

All I can guess is miners at a high-altitude mine in Chile???

I recall a student posting here who spent some time at a mine like that.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10271 01/25/11 08:49 AM
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I would guess that the mountain rescue crews have to pay attention to it a bit.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
tdtz #10272 01/25/11 08:51 AM
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Good guesses guys, but not even close. This requires thinking outside the box a bit. And is within the boundaries of the US (I didn't make that clear at the outset - sorry).

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10274 01/25/11 08:58 AM
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I Googled "american everest guides" and found half-a-dozen companies, which could possibly add up to 25 or so American guides. Cindy would know!. Is there a national society or organization for this group?


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10277 01/25/11 09:13 AM
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All the time at elevation - every minute of it - is spent within the boundaries of the US, not Americans outside the country. It wasn't a trick question (at least not in that sense). It just takes a little broader thinking - and a bit of knowledge of high elevations outside of California.

Dave, I'd really be surprised if Google helped anyone get this.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10279 01/25/11 09:21 AM
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You posted that detail while I was writing my reply...


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10280 01/25/11 09:25 AM
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Did one of their huts burn down in 2009?


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10283 01/25/11 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
Did one of their huts burn down in 2009?


Not that I'm aware of. To my personal knowledge, a hut, as such, isn't even present.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10285 01/25/11 09:44 AM
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Does "10th." feature in the group's name?


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10289 01/25/11 09:55 AM
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Found this on Google, "xxxx" so it doesn't give more away...

Other Requirements
1. Valid xxxx driver's license.
2. Successful completion of high altitude physical and continuing ability to work effectively at 14,000 foot altitude.
3. Willingness to commit to xxxx core and cultural values.
4. Ability to work varying schedules including weekdays, weekends, holidays and evening hours.

Working Conditions:
1. Work at the xxxx (14,000 feet elevation) on a frequent basis.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10290 01/25/11 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
Does "10th." feature in the group's name?


Nope.

Outside the box. From the perspective of a board that might focus heavily on mountaineering and associated endeavors, way outside the box. A mountain is involved, but that's the extent of it.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Steve C #10291 01/25/11 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Found this on Google, "xxxx" so it doesn't give more away...

Other Requirements
1. Valid xxxx driver's license.
2. Successful completion of high altitude physical and continuing ability to work effectively at 14,000 foot altitude.
3. Willingness to commit to xxxx core and cultural values.
4. Ability to work varying schedules including weekdays, weekends, holidays and evening hours.

Working Conditions:
1. Work at the xxxx (14,000 feet elevation) on a frequent basis.


Steve, you may have it! Then again, I wasn't aware of item # 1 - there is another option. PM me - I'm curious what your search words were.

Last edited by Bulldog34; 01/25/11 10:24 AM. Reason: Last sentence added.
Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10292 01/25/11 10:55 AM
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Three answers (all in the same place):

The v c?
The S H?
The R C?

All on top?

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Ken #10294 01/25/11 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Three answers (all in the same place):

The v c?
The S H?
The R C?

All on top?


Ken, I'm not getting a hit on these initials, but PM me with more detail.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Ken #10295 01/25/11 11:15 AM
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They have a Subaru and a Gemini and they work all night?


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10296 01/25/11 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
They have a Subaru and a Gemini and they work all night?


No, but a good deduction. Getting warmer.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10297 01/25/11 11:23 AM
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Do they work on the tallest mountain on Earth?


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10298 01/25/11 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
Do they work on the tallest mountain on Earth?


Not unless they moved Everest to the United States . . .

I would be willing to bet that several of you have been to this place and interacted with some of these people. If not, you gotta get out (of Cali) more!

Last edited by Bulldog34; 01/25/11 11:30 AM. Reason: Added 2nd line.
Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10299 01/25/11 11:26 AM
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I got it! I got it! I got it! - the Starbucks workers at the Smithsonian hut on Whitney!


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10300 01/25/11 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Not unless they moved Everest to the United States . . .

Tallest, not highest.


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10301 01/25/11 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
I got it! I got it! I got it! - the Starbucks workers at the Smithsonian hut on Whitney!


You're getting really warm . . .

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10302 01/25/11 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
Quote:
Not unless they moved Everest to the United States . . .

Tallest, not highest.


Nope, not Mauna Kea. The elevation in the question is no trick - 14,000-plus ft above sea level.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10303 01/25/11 11:45 AM
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And here I was thinking the Observatory could be 204 feet tall.


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10304 01/25/11 11:48 AM
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I am stumped...spent my lunch hour trying to figure this out...I keep thinking it has something to do with the weather service. Am ?patiently? waiting to see the answer!!!

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10305 01/25/11 11:51 AM
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My guess would be the Pikes Peak summit shop crew.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
marmoting #10306 01/25/11 11:53 AM
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There is a building at the end of the road on top of Pikes Peak... I can't find a Street View.


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
hiker00 #10307 01/25/11 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: hiker00
I am stumped...spent my lunch hour trying to figure this out...I keep thinking it has something to do with the weather service. Am ?patiently? waiting to see the answer!!!



hiker00, I promise you that when the answer appears, many people will give their foreheads that good old "I could'a had a V-8!" slap.

Let's review:

(1) This group of 25 people (it varies throught the year) are consistently above 14K' for much of any given year. With my hint of thousands of hours per year spent by this group at that elevation, it is clearly their occupation.

(2) Every moment of that time is spent in the USA.

(3) There are a finite number of places in the USA that are above 14,000 feet.

(4) It is not a trick question - just one that requires a slight mental shift.

(5) wagga almost had it.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
marmoting #10308 01/25/11 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: marmoting
My guess would be the Pikes Peak summit shop crew.


We have a winner! Welcome to the board marmoting!

14,110 feet as your workplace 8 hours a day, mostly year-round. A huge gift shop, tram ticket office and cafe, all rolled up in one pretty good sized "hut". Someone beat that!

Ernie (CMC2) was the person I wanted to hold off answering. He lives in Colorado Springs, in the shadow of Pikes Peak.

Last edited by Bulldog34; 01/25/11 12:02 PM. Reason: Added detail
Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10309 01/25/11 12:01 PM
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Hmmm...is there a partner in Chile?

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
hiker00 #10310 01/25/11 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: hiker00
Hmmm...is there a partner in Chile?


Why yes, I do believe they serve chili at the PP summit cafe . . . smile

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
hiker00 #10311 01/25/11 12:05 PM
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Hey, wait! What about the Keck Observatory on the Big Island in Hawaii?

Here's the job posting I quoted.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Steve C #10313 01/25/11 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Hey, wait! What about the Keck Observatory on the Big Island in Hawaii?

Here's the job posting I quoted.


There's no Fourteener on Hawaii. Mauna Kea is the highest point at @ 13,800. Don't know where they get 14K', unless they're rounding. The only Fourteeners are in Alaska, Colorado, Washington and California.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10314 01/25/11 12:34 PM
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Well, their "rounding" fooled me! They do kick that rounded number around a few places. frown

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Steve C #10316 01/25/11 12:50 PM
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When you posted the job requirements, I thought you may have it. The one thing that didn't fit was the driver's license requirement. I think most Pikes Peak summit staff take the cog railway up and down the mountain.

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10318 01/25/11 01:15 PM
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General Aviation pilots in unpressurized aircraft are required by the FAA to use oxygen above approx. 12,000 feet.

At Pikes Peak, workers, climbers, runners and even race car drivers do without.


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Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10319 01/25/11 01:35 PM
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The "leader" I spoke with was the gift shop/cafe complex manager. I believe the management company is Aramark, similar to national park operations. I was asking him if they required applicants to undergo any type of high altitude tolerance screening, and he said they did not. Since most folks that live in Colorado Springs are at approximately 7000 feet, and often spend time at higher elevations, it was not a pre-employment requirement. He did say, however, that about one in five hires found in the first week that they could not tolerate working at 14K' and quit their job.

He also told me that even seasoned staff were occasionally hit with symptoms of AMS while at work, especially after returning from any extended time off (makes sense - acclimation generally dissipates after a couple of weeks). He said that there was rarely a week that went by in which he didn't have to deal with at least one employee altitude issue - especially if someone came to work after a night of hard drinking.

The customers are another matter entirely - people-watching on Pikes Peak is one helluva spectator sport. There's a lot of stumbling around and holding on to things as people get back on their feet at 14,110' after riding or driving up from 7000'. Many get off the cog railway excited and eager - an hour later they look like they can't wait for the tram to get them off the damn mountain! Pikes Peak is a study in the negative effects of 14K' being too easily accessible to the general public. My wife re-christened the mountain as "Pikes Puke".

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
wagga #10320 01/25/11 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
General Aviation pilots in unpressurized aircraft are required by the FAA to use oxygen above approx. 12,000 feet.


AND ABOVE ONLY 5,000 ft at night !!!

The retina is very sensitive to lower O2 pressure. Because color vision at night begins to deteriorate above just 5,000 ft, the FAA recommends general aviation pilots in non-pressurized aircraft use O2. Most do not.

I once had an arguement with an old pilot in the front row when I was giving a medical talk about hypoxia. He stated that he never had a problem landing at night at his usual place. That's the problem, add a new situation, like new runway, odd lighting around the airport, bad weather, etc, and it might not be so easy. I could not get him to stop badgering me during my talk, so I finally resorted to the line from Top Gun, where Charlie ( Kelli McGinnis) tells Maverick (Tom Cruise), "The Pentagon sees to it that I know more than you."
Brought the house down.


Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Ken #10348 01/26/11 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Three answers (all in the same place):

The v c?
The S H?
The R C?

All on top?


Ahem.

The Visitor Center
The Summit House
The Research Center

Enter "summit house, visitor center, research center" into google, and the first entry is "drive to the summit of Pike's Peak"
smile

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Ken #10349 01/26/11 11:36 AM
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Ken,

Sorry I didn't recognize the initials for what you intended. Since the staff I was referring to works at the Pikes Peak Cafe and Gift Shop, I wasn't able to associate those letters with what I had in mind.

Either way, you were the first to associate Pikes Peak with the question, so you da man! Check's going out by Pony Express . . .


Gary

Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10354 01/26/11 01:48 PM
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I know the road, cafe, and gift shop are out of the question (at least till the tram is finally built smile ), but maybe we can get one of these on Whitney. Maybe where the old "throne" used to be . . .


Re: Altitude JEOPARDY
Bulldog34 #10366 01/26/11 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
Ken,

Sorry I didn't recognize the initials for what you intended. Since the staff I was referring to works at the Pikes Peak Cafe and Gift Shop, I wasn't able to associate those letters with what I had in mind.

Either way, you were the first to associate Pikes Peak with the question, so you da man! Check's going out by Pony Express . . .


Gary


Well, I didn't want to give it away too soon, and spoil the fun.

BTW, until you identified it as being uniquely american, I'd decided on the Space Station!

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