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#11682 - 03/17/11 04:49 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: Bee]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
One of these days, in spite of counsel from my peers, I'll try to launch a thread treating nuclear energy scientifically instead of widely-disseminated popular opinion. But it will probably decay (thank you HKL) into the realm of Urban Legend.
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Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11688 - 03/17/11 06:13 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
Rod Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 660
Loc: Santa Clarita, Ca. USA
Fantastic news +@ti2d.


Edited by Rod (03/17/11 06:14 PM)

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#11689 - 03/17/11 06:14 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: wagga
One of these days, in spite of counsel from my peers, I'll try to launch a thread treating nuclear energy scientifically instead of widely-disseminated popular opinion.



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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#11690 - 03/17/11 06:22 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: Bee]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
When I read a new murder/mystery novel, the chief figure of merit is the number of pages before the word "sardonic" or "sardonically" turns up. Kellerman (all 3) are dismal failures. Today is St. Patty's day, so all is forgiven.
_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11691 - 03/17/11 06:24 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: + @ti2d]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Lol Bee.

I can't post the sources of research associated with the book I mentioned because I don't have a copy of it. This is one of the articles I read from April 2010 when this book was released.
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FlickR

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#11692 - 03/17/11 06:46 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Since we have at least indirect requests for reading matter...

Greenpeace Chernobyl study story

Greenpeace Chernobyl study

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#11693 - 03/17/11 07:59 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: AlanK]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
a friend of mine works on Nuclear plants. I asked him about the Fukushima disaster.

Here is his response (two different responses, but you'll get the gist.

----------------------------------------------
As for Japan, well, you know my distrust and disdain for the traditional media...so I tried not to listen. Too many people talking about stuff they don't know about or think they do, or thought they did. Also, it makes catchier headlines to overreact, hype, and spread fear.

When the quake hit the reactors scrammed...automatically...as designed. At that moment, the fissioning process stops and then the concern is controlling residual heat until it dissipates. The plant lost all outside electricity when the transmission lines were swept away by the tsunami, and they can't make any on their own...their reactor has shut down.

So they use the back-up generators to run the coolant pumps, until they quit from water in the fuel. So they go to battery back-up until they're used up. Now they have NO power. This is all in the first 12 or so hours.....lot's of stuff going on.

As for a meltdown (China Syndrome) happening....I don't think so. The fissioning process had been stopped, there's simply not enough heat to melt through the RPV (Reactor Pressure Vessel). However, there is a tremendous amout of steam pressure remaining.

From what I've read, the explosions occurred in the containment building...which is esssentially a metal barn. Meant to keep weather out, but nothing in. It has nothing to do with primary nor secondary containment of the reactor.

When somebody compares the Japan situation to Chernobyl or Three Mile Island I turn away.

First of all, Chernobyl had NO containment...just a graphite cooled reactor. (bad design, but cheap). The reactor exploded, the graphite caught fire, and sent highly radioactive material in the air. The reasons for the explosion are many...much too involved for here. Further reading is suggested.

As for TMI, it was under full power for many hours with reduced water inventory, and the fuel did melt down. However, it was all contained inside the RPV and containment structures....as designed. Only a very little gas was vented.

So in answer to your question....how much should we believe?

I'm not sure how much or what you have heard....but I'd say overall very little.

The main question that we don't have an answer to, yet...and won't for awhile...did the containment structures survive the initial quake?

What has happened in Japan is a tragedy, but the real tragedy is in the loss of human life and a society....not a nuke plant.
------------------------------------------
Until they give quantities or the details of their findings, I am a little suspect.

Here's why...

The average person receives between 360 and 630mr (millirem) per year from normal background radiation. (depends on who you read). So that equates to 1 to 2 mr a day.

The other day when I linked that picture of a core and fuel bundle, I had just spent 20 hours over the course of 2 days working right over the core. On one of our 'jumps', I picked up 22 mr. Not a lot, but you could truthfully write a headline that screams "Nuke worker picks up 10 to 20 times normal radiation", investigation continues.

So until they publish quantifiable amounts or what they were measuring, you really don't know what they're comparing.

Up until a couple of years ago...5 Rem or R (5,000 millirem) was the annual limit for a nuke worker. You could have 4.99R on December 31st and then on January 1st your count for the year would reset.

Most of the industry has recently changed to a 2R (2,000 millirem) yearly limit. My company has a 2R rolling limit. Meaning in that any 12 months...that is your limit.

These are ultra conservative amounts. It takes 50R (50,000 millirem) before any kind of visible change to blood cells. So we are working under a 4% threshold.

The work I was doing recently was very low dose. I have been on jobs doing RPV head inspections that were in areas known as "Locked High Rad Areas". Yes, they are locked with key.

Anyhow, say our dose limit for that one 'jump' was 800mr with a maximum dose rate of 1R (1,000 millirem) per hour.

And...let's say I picked up my 800mr limit. You could write another headline that screamed "Nuke worker picks up 80 times normal radiation", investigation continues.

So...until you see amounts listed, who knows what they're trying to say.

From what I've read, the most exposure that anybody has received is 10R...a crane operator.

To put that in perspective....ever had a whole body CT scan?

You then received 1.5 to 10R (1,500 to 10,000 millirem) dose from such a scan.

Okay....that was for dose, or the amount of energy received.

Now there is also contamination.

Any amount of radioactive material where it is not wanted is contamination. So, if some material is found anywhere where it is not wanted the headline can truthfully scream "****(pick any number) times higher than normal detected."

Truthfully? Yes

Does it mean anything? Maybe.

Is this situation serious. YES!!

The fact that they're venting is not good, but is it the end of mankind as some would have you to believe? I don't think so.

There is opportunity in every situation...I'll be heading West with my newly processed iodine pills, shortly. I don't have any kelp, but do have piles of buffalo chips.[/sarcasm]

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#11700 - 03/18/11 10:35 AM Re: Japan EQ [Re: + @ti2d]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
I think the news had perfect timing in the way that I read all that last night and thought it was a bit funny because he is saying that the media is playing it all up and it's probably not as bad when everything I had been reading was saying the media is down playing it all and especially the Japanese government was and now I see the news this morning that the government has admitted that the disaster is far worse then they have been letting on. I'm just glad they did admit they partially melted down and that the radiation is so dangerous because covering things up will cost more lives.


Edited by RoguePhotonic (03/18/11 10:37 AM)
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FlickR

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#11704 - 03/18/11 01:45 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: tdtz]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
tdtz - Thanks for the many insights and Nuke 101 course. Very helpful.

CaT
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If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

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#11706 - 03/18/11 01:56 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: CaT]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: CaT
tdtz - Thanks for the many insights and Nuke 101 course. Very helpful.

Agreed.

If you want to elevate your radiation exposure to something approaching 1 mrem per hour (instead of per day), just fly across the country in an airplane (Ref).

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#11808 - 03/21/11 12:27 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: AlanK]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
This enlightening material turned up on The Register.

_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11818 - 03/21/11 01:16 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 579
Loc: Manchester, NH
Pretty high-brow stuff.

I got sucked into reading a piece from Ann Coulter a few days ago. Among others things I learned that only 30 people had died at Chernobyl - just those people within the reactor area itself. Also - there's "scientific" evidence that we can be "inoculated" against radiation by regular exposure to radiation well above what many consider safe limits.

You gotta love the Wing Nuts. When the science doesn't match their belief system, they just make stuff up.

The sad part is how many people actually believe some of this stuff.


Edited by KevinR (03/21/11 01:19 PM)

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#11825 - 03/21/11 02:15 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: KevinR]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
I can make up better stuff than that: No one died at Chernobyl. In fact, thousands of people were healed of all manner of illnesses. Radiation is good for you.

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#11828 - 03/21/11 02:58 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: KevinR]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Originally Posted By: KevinR
I got sucked into reading a piece from Ann Coulter a few days ago.

Coulter is the reason we have off-switches on our TVs (or no TV). I'd love to see Dr. Kiki spar with her - either in the studio or on the mat (Dr. Kiki has a black belt in some form of warfare I can't comprehend).

Here's an early "Food Science" episode. (I think this was posted previously, when we only had a few dozen members). Sorry for the ads. That's what it takes.

Nowadays, she has the "Science Hour".Here is an example. Sorenson has given some lectures on Google Tech Talks. You can Google them. No comment on the eyebrow malfunction.

"Politicians of the day understand that science, facts, and reason are not the way into the voters hearts. So do the news channels, cable and otherwise. People are using opinion in place of knowledge, and opinion will always rule the day because it is easier to align with a person's belief system than are facts." Dr. Kiki.
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Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11837 - 03/21/11 03:44 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: wagga
"Politicians of the day understand that science, facts, and reason are not the way into the voters hearts. So do the news channels, cable and otherwise. People are using opinion in place of knowledge, and opinion will always rule the day because it is easier to align with a person's belief system than are facts." Dr. Kiki.

Excellent statement in the "sad but true" category.

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#11842 - 03/21/11 04:33 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: AlanK]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 989
Loc: Richmond, Virginia

Physics for Future Presidents
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Future-Pre...7488&sr=8-1

an excellent primer.

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#11849 - 03/21/11 05:30 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: Harvey Lankford]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
The laws of physics are great and immutable. Sadly, politicians seem to feel they are immune. Perhaps a requirement before election should be that said politician should lead some easy, but vulnerable route such as the East Face "Fresh Air". No, that wouldn't work, that would just reinforce their false confidence.

I know! - a 10 meter belayed drop off "Shark Fin". That should ground them.
_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11854 - 03/21/11 06:12 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: wagga
The laws of physics are great and immutable. Sadly, politicians seem to feel they are immune. Perhaps a requirement before election should be that said politician should lead some easy, but vulnerable route such as the East Face "Fresh Air". No, that wouldn't work, that would just reinforce their false confidence.

I know! - a 10 meter belayed drop off "Shark Fin". That should ground them.

When I meet someone who thinks that evolution is "just a theory" I remind them that so is gravity. Show some real cojones and deny that theory! The Shark Fin trick would be a perfect demo.

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#11857 - 03/21/11 06:24 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: AlanK]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Added to the Czar Of The Planet List Of Rules.
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Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#11862 - 03/21/11 06:56 PM Re: Japan EQ [Re: wagga]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
And don't overlook 'Intelligent Falling' as an explanation for gravity..
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Mike

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