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#17572 - 08/16/11 08:14 PM Re: Diamox [Re: ]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 453
Loc: San Diego
Only thing I'm worried about right now is that coldness, probably more than the AMS. I was hoping some thermals and a zero degree bag would be enough. I HATE packing heavy. More than likely I'll head down after Russell/Carillion. Those guys with those night shots are really killing me.

The Palisades someday soon it is then dude. LOL, by the time I'm ready, you'll be at Denali.

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#17581 - 08/17/11 07:51 AM Re: Diamox [Re: 2600fromatari]
Burchey
Unregistered


Atari, Denali won't be for another couple years. That requires a lot more experience, time, and money than I'll have any time soon.

You'd probably be okay on the summit in a 0 degree bag, just watch the wind. Wind will suck your heat out of your bag if you aren't prepared - sleep behind a wall/under a shelter/windstopper shell on your bag.

BTW, thread drift

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#17582 - 08/17/11 08:33 AM Re: Diamox [Re: ]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
We have prepared a short video explaining the forum rules regarding threadjacking, thread drift & so forth.
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#17583 - 08/17/11 08:45 AM Re: Diamox [Re: wagga]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Excellent hijack -- I absolutely love this movie! It portrays guys before they became sensitive 90's kinda guys!
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#17584 - 08/17/11 09:10 AM Re: Diamox [Re: Bee]
quillansculpture Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 564
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Thread drift, thread drift......we don't need no stinkin thread drift!!!!

Possibly because Diamox has been beaten to death on about 100 different threads. Besides, this thread has been fun.

Question: Can you tell me what I should eat on Mt Whitney (Aaaaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!)

Answer: Check the other 100 threads on what to eat! And, oh yea, learn to use the "search". My God, I am pissy when I haven't had enough coffee.

p.s. 1 Burchey....Denali???? Please don't call yourself a newbie. I'm way too jealous and not brave enough.

p.s. 2 Atari .... same with you. I love reading your posts. Russell/Carillion in October!!!! It will be cold, but if snow keeps away.....One GORGEOUS month to go up. Didn't you go up Whitney in June? Snow? Straight up the chute?

p.s. 3 Tom, we need to hike together. I'm 200, but 55 lb's lighter than three years ago. The new hip likes less weight.

p.s. 4 CaT, Yes, I summited a week before the date you put down. I wish I had met you either at the portal or the hostel while you were at Whitney.....bummed about that.

p.s. 5 Gary is the fastest hiker downhill I've ever seen. Sucks for me because I hate downhill and try to keep it slow and less stress on my legs, knees, hip.

p.s. 6 I've got permits for Oct 2nd, but am considering doing the MR in mid September instead. It will be my first time doing the entire route. I checked the calendar and didn't see anyone doing the MR at all in Sept. Is anyone hiking the MR in Mid Sept?

p.s. 7 Bee Hijack, hijack, hijack :-)

p.s. 8 wagga.....great video and movie

My favorite is Val Kilmer (select from about 5 different scenes) in Tombstone

asta.....and it's almost lunch time. I have a show tonight in San Diego in case anyone is there.
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#17585 - 08/17/11 09:40 AM Re: Diamox [Re: quillansculpture]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
Joe,
I'm definitely game. My weekends are booked for the foreseeable future...However, I am pretty flexible on weekdays.

I've had overnights in June, July, August and September. I need an october overnight. Atari is going up Russell in October, which is very tempting.

I'm pretty good on downhills. I think that comes from the skiing. Last year when we had storm clouds on the summit, I booked down to trail crest pretty damned fast.

Oh, and I'll be taking diamox...125 x 2. (just to keep on topic).

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#17586 - 08/17/11 09:49 AM Re: Diamox [Re: quillansculpture]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 453
Loc: San Diego
Burchey, I was actually planning on using the summit hut to help with the wind. Otherwise, plenty of boulders to hide behind/under @ Iceberg.

quillansculpture, yes on June. It was actually a walk in the park due to consolidated snow and being able to glissade down which cut quite a bit of time, and stress on the knees. I'll be up the North Fork next April-June if you're interested.

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#17587 - 08/17/11 11:22 AM Re: Diamox [Re: quillansculpture]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1255
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
My favorite is Val Kilmer (select from about 5 different scenes) in Tombstone


"I'm your huckleberry . . . "

Got a T-shirt I bought in Tombstone a few years ago that says that, with a silkscreen of Kilmer's Doc Holiday. Love that shirt.


Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
p.s. 5 Gary is the fastest hiker downhill I've ever seen. Sucks for me because I hate downhill and try to keep it slow and less stress on my legs, knees, hip.


That's just to offset my very deliberate, granny-gear pace uphill. I have a naturally fast gait, but it's taken a lot of conscious effort to dsicipline my uphill pace so that I don't wind up stopping every 10-15 minutes to suck wind. That's just how I've generally always hiked. John Whitworth (catpappy) and Bob Pickering can mostly be thanked for finally getting me over my jackrabbit uphill tendencies after a few hikes in Death Valley back in March, particularly a day on super-steep Corkscrew Peak. I truly learned to pace myself on the uphills from those two guys.

I still tend to fly on the flats and downhills, though, especially if I'm using trekking poles and feel like I've got the stability of a mountain goat. It's not an issue for me since I can keep it up for hours, but it does sometimes create problems with hiking partners. Joe gave me quite a bit of grief over my pace coming down Whitney last year, especially on the switchbacks. I think we covered Trail Crest to Trail Camp in about 30 minutes of hiking time. My wife has learned to keep up with me on the flats and downs, but my daughter still occassionally yells her patented, "slow-down-dad!"

Besides Joe, I took it pretty easy coming down Whitney last month. We had heavy packs and I was deliberately not moving very fast since Brianne was with us. Other than the times we got separated due to talking to others on the trail, you were right there with me. Didn't I ask you several times if you were OK with the pace? You gotta let me know if not, bro!

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#17590 - 08/17/11 02:56 PM Re: Diamox [Re: bobpickering]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:
Bee: I live at 5,000 feet. I think that helps a little, but it's not a big deal. I'm not climbing nearly as much as I did in the 90's, but I try to get up one of the nearby 10K peaks every week or two if I'm not doing something bigger. That helps acclimatization, but I don't think an hour or two above 10K makes a lot of difference. I have never spent extra time at a campground or trailhead just to acclimatize.


Bob, I was kind of amazed by your post, above, and some of the other things that you'd said in your associated post, in which you'd generally dismissed acclimatization, diamox, in general.

clearly, you start off by saying you live at 5,000 feet, so you are acclimatized to that altitude. but then you mention that you climb to 10k every week or so. So you are essentially acclimatized to 10k, inasmuch as you do that on a constant basis. In our last study, we could show an effect if someone had simply been above 10k in the previous MONTH. At all. I think that what you do has a huge effect. What then happened on Denali would then bear that out, as altitude increasingly had an effect on them, but not on you.

Diamox does have it's effect on the breathing aspects of AMS very quickly. It does NOT have such an effect on the other aspects of AMS, however. As you saw on Denali.

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#17591 - 08/17/11 03:13 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Ken]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
(Jerking this thread back from you hijackers... wink  )

Bob's post brought to mind a comparison with Colorado hikers and climbers. We don't hear nearly as much about issues with AMS in that state, because everyone lives at 5k or so. Even though people don't have AMS symptoms at 5k, I am sure there is a benefit. For a person living in Denver, or near Reno, they's have to hike to 19.5k in order to experience similar effects as we lowlanders do when climbing Whitney.

I know from personal experience, when in the past I had the opportunity to spend weekends at a cabin at 5k, that I'd feel unusually lethargic the first day there.

I think Bulldog34 (or someone else), mentioned recently that they were consulting with a Colorado AMS physician at some clinic, and this physician was surprised to hear about AMS problems climbing to 14k. Seems pretty clear to me that the 5k threshold for people in CO provides a completely different reference point.

...and I, too, am in awe of BobP's climbing numbers! smile

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#17594 - 08/17/11 04:15 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Steve C]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
This brings to mind the post, either here or on the other site, from the guy who brought cans of Coors and Budweiser to the summit. The Coors cans were intact, but the Budweiser cans burst. He implied a difference in manufacturing quality, but I wondered whether the fact that Golden, Colorado where Coors is brewed (and often bottled, I think) is at 5,700 feet elevation. The local Budweister bottling plant in Fairfield, CA, by contrast, is between 15 and 400 feet above sea level, depending where you are.

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#17624 - 08/18/11 10:11 AM Re: Diamox [Re: Bulldog34]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
Bulldog - Sounds like our hiking styles are very similar, esp. the downhill part. Richard P. had a hand in helping me learn to pace myself also back a few years ago.

CaT
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#17640 - 08/18/11 06:06 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Steve C]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1023
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Steve C

Bob's post brought to mind a comparison with Colorado hikers and climbers. We don't hear nearly as much about issues with AMS in that state, because everyone lives at 5k or so. Even though people don't have AMS symptoms at 5k, I am sure there is a benefit. For a person living in Denver, or near Reno, they's have to hike to 19.5k in order to experience similar effects as we lowlanders do when climbing Whitney.

mentioned recently that they were consulting with a Colorado AMS physician at some clinic, and this physician was surprised to hear about AMS problems climbing to 14k. Seems pretty clear to me that the 5k threshold for people in CO provides a completely different reference point.


Ready for some Lankford trivia about that 5k?

Although the official definition of altitude illness begins at 8k, the FAA recommends that general aviation pilots flying above just 5k at night in non-pressurized aircraft use supplemental oxygen. Of course most of them ignore this recommendation, but it is there because the retina (which is actually an extension of the brain) is the most sensitive body part to hypoxia. So the small amount of lowered O2 available at 5k is enough to subtlely impair night color vision. I gave a talk to pulmonary MDs once and this older codgy pilot tried to argue with me in front of the audience. I used a paraphrase of the great line in Top Gun where Charlie tells Maverick something like, "The government sees to it that I know more about than you do."

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#17641 - 08/18/11 06:27 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Fascinating info, Harvey! I have had my pilot's license for about 20yrs, and I did not know about the O2/brain/retina connection. Most of the pilots that I know do not use O2 unless they were at 10k or higher....
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#17648 - 08/19/11 05:30 AM Re: Diamox [Re: Bee]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1023
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Bee, most everyone (pilots) does what you say (above 10k and not 5.) The key words are "night" flying where color perception is more affected ...but, I gather most VFR does not happen at night anyway. The other key word is "subtle" loss of color vision. The explanation to me was that this would not be problem in familiar surroundings, but if you were flying in a novel situation (ie, different plane, new runway, or inclement conditions ) then you would not want to miss any visual clues, no matter how minor.

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#17656 - 08/19/11 04:14 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1023
Loc: Richmond, Virginia

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#17659 - 08/19/11 09:13 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Ken]
bobpickering Online


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 403
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Ken:

The last time we disagreed, you said some pretty outrageous things on WPSMB, deleted your posts, and then suggested in a PM that I had exaggerated or distorted what you said. I've quoted you here, complete with grammatical/punctuation/capitalization errors, so I won't find myself responding to a post that got deleted.

Originally Posted By: Ken
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Bee: I live at 5,000 feet. I think that helps a little, but it's not a big deal. I'm not climbing nearly as much as I did in the 90's, but I try to get up one of the nearby 10K peaks every week or two if I'm not doing something bigger. That helps acclimatization, but I don't think an hour or two above 10K makes a lot of difference. I have never spent extra time at a campground or trailhead just to acclimatize.


Bob, I was kind of amazed by your post, above, and some of the other things that you'd said in your associated post, in which you'd generally dismissed acclimatization, diamox, in general.

clearly, you start off by saying you live at 5,000 feet, so you are acclimatized to that altitude. but then you mention that you climb to 10k every week or so. So you are essentially acclimatized to 10k, inasmuch as you do that on a constant basis. In our last study, we could show an effect if someone had simply been above 10k in the previous MONTH. At all. I think that what you do has a huge effect. What then happened on Denali would then bear that out, as altitude increasingly had an effect on them, but not on you.

Diamox does have it's effect on the breathing aspects of AMS very quickly. It does NOT have such an effect on the other aspects of AMS, however. As you saw on Denali.

You say in your first (somewhat confusing) sentence that I "generally dismissed acclimatization, diamox, in general."

Here is what I said about Diamox:
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
The last few years, "everybody" has been recommending taking Diamox before you go to altitude. You should probably do that if you have good reason to expect AMS. However, Diamox does work if you wait until symptoms develop. It's better to climb without using drugs if you can, so you might want to bring some Diamox but not use it until you need it.
That certainly isn't "dismissing" the use of Diamox.

The subject of acclimatization, which you accuse me of dismissing, is more complex. My answer to Bee's question, which you quoted, says that I live at 5K and often take a quick trip to 10K. I acknowledged that this helps acclimatization, but I also said that I don't think it's a huge advantage. In another paragraph, I said that I try to sleep at the trailhead to help acclimatize. Is that dismissing acclimatization?

You claim that a few hours a month at 10K means that I am "essentially acclimatized to 10K." If that were true, people who spend 12-48 hours at or above Horseshow Meadow wouldn't get AMS on Whitney any more than I do. Either that, or I simply tolerate altitude better than most people. Which one is it?

People who climb often develop the right muscles, pace themselves, climb efficiently, and take good care of themselves. People who run on the beach and then decide to head up a big mountain are going to have more trouble. A survey that finds a slight negative correlation between AMS and being above 10K in the last month proves nothing. Climbers climb better than non-climbers. Duh!!

On the Denali trip, we spent four nights at 12,800 and six nights at 14,700. After all those storm days, we should have all been equally acclimatized. (After all, you claim that just a few hours at 10K has a "huge effect.") However, three members of the team still performed poorly. All of them had a history of not performing particularly well at altitude.

If living at 5K had a "huge effect," you would expect all my local climbing partners to perform well. They don't. On one fast trip up Shasta with three younger guys, one of them started pushing me at Red Banks. I pushed hard and waited 40 minutes for him on the summit. On a Whitney trip, another guy who consistently kicked my butt at running and cycling got AMS, leaving me to solo the East Face. I have a great photo of another local partner puking on the summit of Shasta. Another regular partner was consistently stronger at lower elevations, but I always turned the tables above 12K. I could go on, but I can assure you that there are plenty people living at 5K who don't perform especially well at altitude.

BTW, I know a member of this board who lives at sea level, rarely gets above 10K, and regularly performs better as the air gets thinner. Some of us are just lucky and don't have to worry much about AMS.

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#17660 - 08/20/11 04:20 AM Re: Diamox [Re: bobpickering]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1023
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: bobpickering

Some of us are just lucky and don't have to worry much about AMS.


Bottom line

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#17673 - 08/20/11 05:27 PM Re: Diamox [Re: bobpickering]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Ken:

The last time we disagreed, you said some pretty outrageous things on WPSMB, deleted your posts, and then suggested in a PM that I had exaggerated or distorted what you said. I've quoted you here, complete with grammatical/punctuation/capitalization errors, so I won't find myself responding to a post that got deleted.

Originally Posted By: Ken
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Bee: I live at 5,000 feet. I think that helps a little, but it's not a big deal. I'm not climbing nearly as much as I did in the 90's, but I try to get up one of the nearby 10K peaks every week or two if I'm not doing something bigger. That helps acclimatization, but I don't think an hour or two above 10K makes a lot of difference. I have never spent extra time at a campground or trailhead just to acclimatize.


Bob, I was kind of amazed by your post, above, and some of the other things that you'd said in your associated post, in which you'd generally dismissed acclimatization, diamox, in general.

clearly, you start off by saying you live at 5,000 feet, so you are acclimatized to that altitude. but then you mention that you climb to 10k every week or so. So you are essentially acclimatized to 10k, inasmuch as you do that on a constant basis. In our last study, we could show an effect if someone had simply been above 10k in the previous MONTH. At all. I think that what you do has a huge effect. What then happened on Denali would then bear that out, as altitude increasingly had an effect on them, but not on you.

Diamox does have it's effect on the breathing aspects of AMS very quickly. It does NOT have such an effect on the other aspects of AMS, however. As you saw on Denali.

You say in your first (somewhat confusing) sentence that I "generally dismissed acclimatization, diamox, in general."

Here is what I said about Diamox:
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
The last few years, "everybody" has been recommending taking Diamox before you go to altitude. You should probably do that if you have good reason to expect AMS. However, Diamox does work if you wait until symptoms develop. It's better to climb without using drugs if you can, so you might want to bring some Diamox but not use it until you need it.
That certainly isn't "dismissing" the use of Diamox.

The subject of acclimatization, which you accuse me of dismissing, is more complex. My answer to Bee's question, which you quoted, says that I live at 5K and often take a quick trip to 10K. I acknowledged that this helps acclimatization, but I also said that I don't think it's a huge advantage. In another paragraph, I said that I try to sleep at the trailhead to help acclimatize. Is that dismissing acclimatization?

You claim that a few hours a month at 10K means that I am "essentially acclimatized to 10K." If that were true, people who spend 12-48 hours at or above Horseshow Meadow wouldn't get AMS on Whitney any more than I do. Either that, or I simply tolerate altitude better than most people. Which one is it?

People who climb often develop the right muscles, pace themselves, climb efficiently, and take good care of themselves. People who run on the beach and then decide to head up a big mountain are going to have more trouble. A survey that finds a slight negative correlation between AMS and being above 10K in the last month proves nothing. Climbers climb better than non-climbers. Duh!!

On the Denali trip, we spent four nights at 12,800 and six nights at 14,700. After all those storm days, we should have all been equally acclimatized. (After all, you claim that just a few hours at 10K has a "huge effect.") However, three members of the team still performed poorly. All of them had a history of not performing particularly well at altitude.

If living at 5K had a "huge effect," you would expect all my local climbing partners to perform well. They don't. On one fast trip up Shasta with three younger guys, one of them started pushing me at Red Banks. I pushed hard and waited 40 minutes for him on the summit. On a Whitney trip, another guy who consistently kicked my butt at running and cycling got AMS, leaving me to solo the East Face. I have a great photo of another local partner puking on the summit of Shasta. Another regular partner was consistently stronger at lower elevations, but I always turned the tables above 12K. I could go on, but I can assure you that there are plenty people living at 5K who don't perform especially well at altitude.

BTW, I know a member of this board who lives at sea level, rarely gets above 10K, and regularly performs better as the air gets thinner. Some of us are just lucky and don't have to worry much about AMS.


you know, Bob, I'd posted a somewhat scathing response, and then I'd deleted it, saving Steve the bother.

Basically, the topic of this thread boils down to the use of diamox, the prescription drug.

Bob, you are basically saying that the best strategy is to plan to have the best genetics so that one does not need the support of acclimatization or drugs. I agree.

Everyone should follow that advice.

As for the use of a prescription drug, people should do what they think is safe and effective.

Otherwise, with respect to the prevention and treatment of altitude illnesses, it seems odd to be getting advice from someone who goes to great lengths to describe how they dont ever get it. Sort of like getting advice on how to put on makeup.

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#17676 - 08/20/11 05:55 PM Re: Diamox [Re: Ken]
quillansculpture Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 564
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Okay, okay.... I hope this doesn't go from being an informative thread, degenerating down to fun thread.....then back to an informative but pissy thread.
As a note.......we ALL enjoy reading your (Bob and Ken) posts.
You guys promote some of the best educational info from LIFE experience on both sites. You both provide information that many of us would need a lifetime to acquire. With that said, this site and the other wouldn't be the same without your knowledge and participation. And, if you check all the new posts on this site, there's a whole lot of them......and they just want to know how the heck they can get to the summit without throwing up, getting a splitting headache, getting too cold, hit by lightning, keep from getting rescued by SAR, etc. I look up to you guys, many of us do.....now give the new posters some real life experience they can remember you guys by. That's all they want, a hug a kiss, a spank on the butt for good luck.....and then sending them on their way.

nuff said
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