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#17249 - 08/05/11 05:18 PM New MSR Stoves
wazzu Offline


Registered: 06/20/10
Posts: 319
Loc: Orange County, CA
Hikin_Jim has some info on 3 new MSR stoves. Check out his blog.

Everything you might want to know about stoves can be found on this blog. If you have any questions about stoves, this is the guy to contact.

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#18044 - 09/04/11 04:33 PM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: wazzu]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: wazzu
Hikin_Jim has some info on 3 new MSR stoves. Check out his blog.

Everything you might want to know about stoves can be found on this blog. If you have any questions about stoves, this is the guy to contact.
Aw, shucks. wink

But seriously, I do enjoy stoves and don't mind questions. Questions make good grist for my stove blog, and (weirdo stove guy that I am) I actually enjoy talking about stoves. I guess I must since I have stove blog, lol.

Right now, I'm evaluating the new MSR Whisperlite Univeral, which is set for public release in 2012. The Whisperlite Universal will do anything the old Whisperlite Classic or Whisperlite Internationale will do AND the Universal will burn canister gas. I've only run a few tests as of now, but I like what I see so far. I haven't finished my evaluation, but I do have some videos of the new stove posted on my blog: MSR Whisperlite Universal -- First Videos, Detailed Photos

Here is a photo of the W'Lite Universal running on canister gas:


HJ
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Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18045 - 09/04/11 06:30 PM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1025
Loc: Madison, WI
I own 5 stoves - not gonna get another one... maybe...
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#18063 - 09/05/11 11:11 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Great news! Next time my hiking buddy's white gas blowtorch clogs, he can use my backup canister and we can keep two stoves melting snow. smile I used to be the one with stove problems eating last and cursing. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'll share my experiences with a few different stoves to generate discussion:

I spent more time tinkering with my retired Whisperlite than any other piece of gear ever. When I first bought the blowtorch, the Bluet stove was about the only canister option and fuel seemed expensive. I replaced my jet when the shaker jet came out, used fresh gas, primed it with alcohol, rebuilt the pump, yet I still couldn't be sure if it would work every time. I also remember getting white gas on my hands, my pack, and some on the ground. Liquid fuel might be the best option for Everest or for serious snow campers, but I grew tired of it for my backpacking purposes. The last time it flared up I decided it was time to retire it.

For typical long weekend solo or duo trips, I love my titanium tab-fuel mini-stove & SnowPeak lidded 0.7 pot/cup setup for reliability, compactness, and most of all - ultra low weight (5-6 oz incl fuel). SteveC describes an interesting way to warm up a Mt House meal very efficiently with his tab fuel stove on another GearHead thread. I prefer to boil 2+ cups of water with one Espit tab and keep my pot clean. One tab in the morning for oatmeal and coffee. One tab in the evening for a 2-person Mtn House meal. I don't carry fuel tabs in my pot, but I'm just being extra cautious.

For snow camping, long excursions, or family trips, I go to my MSR pocket rocket with 1L Evernew titanium pot (2L MSR Titan pot for family use). A custom cut mouse pad provides adequate insulation on snow. I confess I don't camp in subzero weather or multiple nights on snow where white gas might work better. Wind issues are a problem with these lightweight canister stoves and building an adequate shelter is difficult. Windscreens are dangerous if they enclose the canister causing overheating and potential for explosion. Here's a link to a simple design for a windscreen that keeps the canister out of the heated space.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00041.html

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#18077 - 09/06/11 09:39 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
I own 5 stoves - not gonna get another one... maybe...
Oh, come on, you know you want one. wink

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18078 - 09/06/11 10:16 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: SierraNevada]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I spent more time tinkering with my retired Whisperlite than any other piece of gear ever. I replaced my jet when the shaker jet came out, used fresh gas, primed it with alcohol, rebuilt the pump, yet I still couldn't be sure if it would work every time.
That's really odd. I've been using my Whisperlite since 1987, and I've had very few problems. Do you filter your white gas? I run my white gas through a coffee filter as I fill my bottles. Seems to work pretty well.

The one stove I have had a lot of clogs on is my dad's old MSR Dragonfly. Ugh. Clogs a lot on the in-line filter in the fuel line.

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I also remember getting white gas on my hands, my pack, and some on the ground.
Have you tried the "flip" stop technique? It prevents a lot of that.


Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I confess I don't camp in subzero weather or multiple nights on snow where white gas might work better.
There is a middle ground: a remote inverted canister gas stove. If you run with the canister inverted (upside down), you can use a gas stove in weather that's about 20 degrees Fahrenheit colder than with a conventional upright canister stove (e.g. a Pocket Rocket, etc.). That's the real genius of a stove like the MSR Whisperlite Universal. Not only will it run on canister gas, it will do it in temperatures down to 0F (-18C) or colder.

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Wind issues are a problem with lightweight canister stoves and building an adequate shelter is difficult. Windscreens are dangerous if they enclose the canister causing overheating and potential for explosion. Here's a link to a simple design for a windscreen that keeps the canister out of the heated space.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00041.html
That's a good reference, and I've got some additional windscreen ideas for conventional upright canister stoves on my blog.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18083 - 09/06/11 11:41 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7209
Loc: Fresno, CA
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
Have you tried the "flip" stop technique? It prevents a lot of that.
I've never tried the "Flip Stop" technique. Interesting. Looks like it works pretty well.

What I have always done is this:
1. Shut off the valve at the pump/bottle.
2. Disconnect the stove.
3. Open the stove valve (the one on the stove, NOT the bottle).
4. (Make sure stove is cool first) Hold the stove in my hand with the supply line down, and swing my arm, so centrifugal force drives all the liquid fuel out of the line. This leaves the stove with no fuel left in the line.
5. Release the pressure from the fuel tank by unscrewing the pump just enough. Some fuel sprays out, so I do get it on my hands. Using Coleman fuel, it evaporates quickly and doesn't leave an odor.

So my method is certainly messier than the flip stop. I'll try flipping it next time I use the stove. cool


As for flare-ups: This is the biggest problem with liquid fuel MSR stoves. It is hard to tell people how to do it, but I have never had any trouble. Simple instructions:
  Open. Close. Light. Wait until flame almost goes out. Then open the second time.

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#18085 - 09/06/11 12:46 PM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Steve C]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
Have you tried the "flip" stop technique? It prevents a lot of that.
I've never tried the "Flip Stop" technique. Interesting. Looks like it works pretty well. ...my method is certainly messier than the flip stop. I'll try flipping it next time I use the stove. cool
It works very well, but it doesn't have nearly the same potential for warming up your arm that your method has. smile

Originally Posted By: Steve C
As for flare-ups: This is the biggest problem with liquid fuel MSR stoves. It is hard to tell people how to do it, but I have never had any trouble. Simple instructions:
  Open. Close. Light. Wait until flame almost goes out. Then open the second time.
Yep, that's about right. You can also use alcohol. I use alcohol in a squeeze bottle. With the squeeze bottle, it's easier to control the amount dispensed, and you don't get nearly as much soot with alcohol primes.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18103 - 09/07/11 06:28 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Thanks for great discussion. I think all these work-a-rounds and special handling techniques exemplify what I meant by "more tinkering than any other piece of gear ever." It's not that I couldn't keep the stove going, it was just too much effort and there was always some uncertainty about how it would perform.

I bought high quality fresh gas every season (which also drives up the cost alittle). I did not filter my white gas, so I guess I didn't actually try "everything." My random flare ups occurred as a result of clogging, which caused a weak initial flame followed by liquid fuel sputtering into the bowl. I primed with a lot denatured alcohol so I know it was hot enough. Sometimes the clogging occurred during cooking, the stove burned slow and cooled down, and then when I pumped up the pressure it squirted liquid fuel and flared up.

Bottom line for me: the Whisperlite was a heavy piece of work compared to a canister stove. Great that the new design will accept canister fuel. Good to have versatility, but that's not an important consideration for me. If I'm ever headed for Himalaya or the Arctic, I'll reconsider.

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#18104 - 09/07/11 07:02 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: SierraNevada]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7209
Loc: Fresno, CA
Wow! Vastly different experiences here. I have never filtered my Coleman fuel, never bought new each year -- just replace that gallon rectangular can each time it gets low.

And I have never had a stove clog even once, and have never had a flare-up, or a slow-down for any reason other than pressure depletion.

I DO check out the stove before I head out, though, lighting it up and testing it for leaks (rubber O-ring cracked once). I oil the pump once in a while, too. ...but that is all.

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#18109 - 09/07/11 07:52 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: SierraNevada]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
My random flare ups occurred as a result of clogging, which caused a weak initial flame followed by liquid fuel sputtering into the bowl. Sometimes the clogging occurred during cooking, the stove burned slow and cooled down, and then when I pumped up the pressure it squirted liquid fuel and flared up.
Yep, sounds like clogging all right. Interesting. I've never had those kinds of problems with a Whisperlite, and I've frequently used fuel that was multiple years old (Coleman brand).

I have some guesses as to what's going on, but you don't live nearby (and aren't all that interested in your Whisperlite!), so I guess it's not worth working on.

As for the Whisperlite Universal, at the very least it's a nice remote inverted canister gas stove that will operate in much colder temperatures than upright canister stoves -- and handle some pretty big pots. If someone were in the market for a stove with those attributes, then the W'lite Universal might be a good practical choice.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18112 - 09/07/11 07:57 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Steve C]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
Wow! Vastly different experiences here. I have never filtered my Coleman fuel, never bought new each year -- just replace that gallon rectangular can each time it gets low.

And I have never had a stove clog even once, and have never had a flare-up, or a slow-down for any reason other than pressure depletion.

I DO check out the stove before I head out, though, lighting it up and testing it for leaks (rubber O-ring cracked once). I oil the pump once in a while, too. ...but that is all.

Hi, Steve,

Yeah, my experience is more like yours. I even have the old pre-shaker jet Whisperlite. Never a clog, although I have had problems with cracks in the "O" ring that seals the pump to the fuel bottle.

I wonder if SierraNevada's stove had crud in the fuel line. Something that would periodically dislodge, go down the fuel line, and then clog the burner. I've seen that before on other people's stoves. In that case, one has to scour the line with the built in cable. A pain-in-the-arse, and a dirty job, but it usually takes care of business.

Interesting point re the above: the flip stop technique will clear the line and typically prevent the kind of problem that SierraNevada is describing.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18113 - 09/07/11 08:00 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7209
Loc: Fresno, CA
> the flip stop technique will clear the line and typically prevent the kind of problem that SierraNevada is describing.

My purging of the liquid fuel using centrifugal force might do that even better.

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#18114 - 09/07/11 08:45 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Steve C]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
> the flip stop technique will clear the line and typically prevent the kind of problem that SierraNevada is describing.

My purging of the liquid fuel using centrifugal force might do that even better.
Not sure that one or the other might be better, but it is interesting that we both purge our fuel lines and we've experienced no clogs.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18116 - 09/07/11 09:37 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2205
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Helpful hint here:

When you run the propane tank with the Northstar lantern and two stoves for a long period of time (cooking for 30 campers), the tank gets very cold and the propane starts to freeze.

Just pop the tank (with the lantern running) on the BBQ fire. A good side benefit is that you get the campground to yourself.

And yes, Steve is implicated in this one.

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#18117 - 09/07/11 09:43 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
shocked Hope you have good life insurance!!!

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18118 - 09/07/11 10:33 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7209
Loc: Fresno, CA
wagga loves to trot that picture out.   grin

Actually, the tank was nearly empty, with the lantern flame nearly out. The last of the propane was too cold to vaporize, so a little heat was applied. I think we got about a minute of extra flame from it.

...but all the campers DID take off. smirk

I still use that tank and lantern. A much more dangerous situation occurred when the lantern somehow crossthreaded onto the pipe. I lit the lantern, but the gas escaping from the bad connection caused a fire around the valve and ignitor, melting the parts. Pretty much destroyed the lantern.

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#18120 - 09/07/11 11:29 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: Steve C]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C

...but all the campers DID take off. smirk
laugh

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#18147 - 09/07/11 09:48 PM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal


After watching HJ's embedded video above, YouTube's recommended links took me to a Whisperlite fan demonstrating how to light one. He accidentally gets a 1-ft tall flare up going at about 4:30 into the clip. When he moves the black bag, notice the pile of gun shells he has laying on the table. I think he was subconsciously going for a Darwin award and he wanted video proof.


Edited by SierraNevada (09/07/11 09:53 PM)

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#18153 - 09/08/11 05:52 AM Re: New MSR Stoves [Re: SierraNevada]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Actually, it's better if you pour the white gasoline directly on the ammunition. wink

HJ
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Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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