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Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
#18737 09/26/11 06:43 PM
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I see people taking their pets on hikes all the time. I saw a dog on the Mt. Whitney main trail two weekends ago, its owner said his dog made it all the way to Trail Crest.

I see dogs all the time on San Gorgonio trails and at the summit. I've even seen a dog carried down in a backpack because it was too exhausted to walk down after its owner made it walk all the way to the summit of San Gorgonio.

I'm an animal lover to the nth degree, I LOVE ANIMALS. It breaks my heart when I see animals taken to high altitudes because I think to myself, 'how does the owner know if the dog is experiencing AMS and how does an owner know if their pet's poor little feet are just plain tired and most of all, I THINK OF ALL THE LITTLE ROCKS THAT CAN GET STUCK BETWEEN THEIR TOES AND CAUSE PAIN and the cuts they can get from jagged rocks.

Does anyone on the WZ know how to tell when a dog has AMS?

Recently on the news I saw a dog being rescued on a mountain because it was too tired to go any farther. Thank goodness this pet had good owners who called for a helicopter for their pet. I know SAR uses dogs on rescues and I realize how valuable a dog can be to finding someone lost and in need of help. I just saw a photo of DUG in the photo gallery with his new rescue pet.

I think we also need to think of our pets when taking them on long hikes, especially at high altitudes. If anyone has any experience with mountain hiking pets I would love to hear if a pet needs to start hiking at a young age and how can you tell if your dog has AMS.

Thank you for listening.

Super Animal Love, Lynn-a-roo


Lynnaroo
Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18754 09/27/11 07:54 AM
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I once met a guy with a Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pig on one of the easier 14ers in Colorado. They were on their way back down after making the summit. No cut feet or signs of AMS. Vincent was a pretty cool pig, and he seemed proud of his accomplishment.

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18757 09/27/11 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: lynn-a-roo
Does anyone on the WZ know how to tell when a dog has AMS?


Lynn, this is not a joke, but I would think "Mountaineer's Foot" applies to pets as well, ie, can't put one foot in front of the other...then go down.

Different species of animals have different pulmonary vasculature reactivity to hypoxia. Cattle are very sensitive even to 7,000 ft. See Brisket Disease (Chronic Mountain sickness in cattle). Don't know about dogs (or pigs)


Last edited by Harvey Lankford; 09/27/11 10:12 AM.
Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18759 09/27/11 11:06 AM
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Dogs often fly as cargo on airliners. I'm not positive, but I thought the cargo area wasn't pressurized or not pressurized the same as the cabin.

Of course chilling in a crate at 20,000 is probably easier than hiking at 14,000 feet.

A few years ago there was a dog who hung out on the trail between trail crest and the summit. Must have lived off of hand outs until someone got him down.........................DUG

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
DUG #18761 09/27/11 01:13 PM
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most, but not all ,cargo areas in passenger planes are pressurized to same as cabin - 7,000-8,000 ft. This effective altitude will be lowered (hence higher pressure) in the new Boeing 787 just released. The Boeing medical dept has felt that some travelers complaints are actually high altitude sickness.

here is one carriers info - more than you might ever need to know about pressure, humidity and temperature variation in various areas of the plane - applicable to what you send either inanimate or animate:
http://www.jal.co.jp/en/jalcargo/inter/guide/animal/
http://www.jal.co.jp/en/jalcargo/inter/bulk.html

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18772 09/28/11 04:17 AM
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I have hiked with my dog on Whitney. We've been up to Trail Camp, though not as far as Trail Crest. With some care and preparation, this can be a safe and enjoyable way to hike, for dog and owner alike, without negative impacts on the surrounding environment.

1. With respect to paws, you have to condition your dog to hike properly. I hiked a lot of East Bay Hills before trying the Sierras. We had a few mishaps (once, I did run her paws raw), that I learned how to address and avoid. Before trying Whitney, we did a number of long day hikes, including Mt. Tallac and Mt. Tamalpais, as well as a lot of hikes on Mission Peak in Fremont, CA.

2. On altitude, I have read the dogs can get altitude sickness (and have read trip reports about the bizarre ways in which that can manifest, including uncontrollable barking and erratic behavior). Before taking my dog up Whitney, I spent a lot of time with her over several weeks in the Tioga Pass area. When we did our Whitney trip, I built in a lot of acclimatization for both of us. We spent 2 nights at Tioga Pass, plus a night at Outlook Camp, before going up to Trail Camp.

3. On Whitney, because of the rocks, my dog wore booties (see second picture below). We turned around at Trail Camp, rather than go for Trail Crest, because even with the booties, I was concerned about the rock issues. Though she did the entire Tallac hike (14 miles in one day) without booties, so I was probably being overcautious. I also carry duct tape (the 11th wildnerness essential), which in a pinch, can be used to deal with paw issues.

4. Despite all this preparation, I make sure to have a pack that, if necessary, could be used to carry her down in. I don't think you can assume that a helicopter will come for a dog.

5. Dogs are great pack animals. They can carry out their own poo, and they don't mind a little extra. My dog carries out her own wherever we go ... dog poo is not good for wild animals....

6. Depending where we are, I may only allow my dog to drink filtered water (e.g., if there are livestock around, or if it doesn't appear that the water is pristine). Dogs can get parasites. However, I am a little less scrupulous about the water that she drinks than I am about my own; dogs do have strong stomachs, and there is the fact that a dog will be a dog ... even though I keep my dog on leash at all times while hiking, it is hard to be attentive to every single movement ... if we are doing a stream crossing, and she's thirsty, she may get a sip in before I can evaluate and offer filtered water instead.

7. I started high altitude hiking with my dog when she was maybe 6 years old. So far, paw care has proved to be the thing I have to focus on the most.

Happy trail dog (Kennedy Meadows near Sonoro Pass)



At Trail Camp



Overheated on the Main Trail...

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
Akichow #18789 09/28/11 03:42 PM
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Great thread, Lynn. Too many people don't think about this in advance.

Akichow, what a great job in caring for your pooch! You can tell that nothing bad is going to happen, and the dog is going to have a great time.

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
Ken #18793 09/28/11 05:38 PM
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Ken, I too am very happy with this thread and the good responses to it. I'm learning things too, it's wonderful what can be learned when people share. Thank you to everyone.

Akichow, I love the photos of your dog...she's gorgeous...I think she should be in the movies...she sits well for the camera too. You have done a wonderful job preparing your pet for hiking and you have great recommendations for others who want to take their pets along on their hikes.

I was in Yellowstone a couple of years ago. The temperature was extremely hot. As I was hiking down a long, steep stairway I saw three people hiking up while tugging their dog along behind them. I could tell the dog was absolutely beat. I asked the people if they had water with them and they said no which totally upset me, but not so much for them but for their dog. The poor dog didn't choose to take a long hike without water, his owners did. I pulled out my last bottle of water and gave it all to the dog. I cupped my hands while a friend poured the water and that dog lapped it up so quickly. People need to stop and think about their pets too and not just themselves all the time, just as if they had children with them. No one would hike without having water for their children. Children and pets are at the mercy of their parents and owners.


Lynnaroo
Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18799 09/28/11 08:33 PM
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One summer I was coming off Mt Langley, and encountered a fellow hiking with his two dogs. He was trying to make the summit, but his dogs were spent. They didn't want to move.

I'm not sure what happened, but I hope he carried them some of the way back.

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
Steve C #18805 09/29/11 04:38 AM
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Yes, I have seen some abuses too. Abuses to the dog, abuses to the surrounding environment, abuses to other people. Here are my personal thoughts on good canine citizenship in the wilderness, which I follow, and wish others did. As you can guess, I think about this a lot, and once wrote up a piece on hiking with your dog for the local Sierra Club newsletter. Sorry if this comes out bossy ... these are just the rules I follow myself, and wish others did, realizing that folks will do what they want....

1. Respect the rules in a national park. Don't hike with your dogs where you are not supposed to.... (sigh, I do see this one violated).

2. Keep your dog leashed in the wilderness/national forest, or at least don't let him/her go off trail. (That is very controversial ... others would disagree ... say its the wildnerness, so I can do what I want... the wild animals run free after all). There are a lot of problems with dogs running off trail -- they scare other animals, destroy nests/habitat, drop poop that may possess bugs that can kill wild animals, and can be predatory to delicate local life. Also, it is dangerous to them ... they are more likely to get bitten by a snake (or get a foxtail, etc.) and one cannot just assume that a helivac is possible (see 3). I do, however, let my dog swim in lakes, so long as I don't see water fowl or nests in the immediate vicinity (Oh boy, does my dog love lakes).

3. Carry first aid attuned to your dog's needs, not just your own. In this respect, one cannot assume that a helivac is going to be possible for a dog ... they may not send a helicopter. So, you may want to be prepared to carry out your dog if necessary, and to treat more serious problems (e.g., snake bites).

4. Train your dog's paws, and carry a variety of things to address paw issues.....

5. Carry enough water for you and your dog. But, as noted, I am more likely to let my dog drink from more pristine-looking water sources in the wilderness than myself. They can get parasites, but they are hardier than we are ... and a dog will be a dog....

6. Don't let your dog jump up on other hikers. Let other hikers show interest first in your dog....

7. Be aware that dogs can get poison oak. Or carry the oils on their coats, and then give it to you. (Another reason to keep dogs on leash...so you can better control their movement...)

8. At rests stops, check for ticks, rocks in the paw pads, scrapes or cuts in the paw pads, foxtails....

9. If you are camping overnight, make sure to account for the dog's comfort, particularly if it is cold. For some, this means bringing a sleeping pad, particularly if the ground is cold. So far, I have done fine by letting my dog sleep in the tent with me, and using a backpacking towel as a pad underneath her. Once, I saw she was cold (she was panting/shivering in the early morning), so I wrapped her in my down jacket (something she normally would not tolerate) and that did the trick.

10. Know your dog's limitations! And respect them.

Snow hiking raises a different set of issues. But oh-so-much fun!

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
Akichow #18813 09/29/11 09:20 AM
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Wow - these are all great tips! I usually am pretty cautious when it comes to bringing my 100 lb lab on the trail. If it's less than 10 miles and the trail is well maintained (and dogs are allowed), I will bring him. But when training for Whitney, and now training for Kilimanjaro, I leave him with a "sitter." It might be kind of selfish, but I don't want to have to worry about him and have it interfere with my training.

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
gTy #18831 09/29/11 05:22 PM
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Great tips summarized in this thread! It would be hard to add much more that is of importance.

I've got two dogs that hike/trail run with me regularly. If I am the guy with two dogs that was spotted on Langley, it was me that had AMS and me who could barely move forward, not the dogs. Lesson learned regarding pacing myself.

I have a 90 pound golden-yellow lab and a 40 pound Kelpie (sort of like an all black border collie). The keys for the dogs are keeping them supplied with water/snow sources, avoiding hot, sunny hikes, keeping them in shade to cool off if water/snow is sparse, and preparing them by getting them out on walks/runs regularly to keep them fit and to keep their paws toughened/callussed. Keeping dogs on dirt as much as possible is helpful to dogs' paws, not to mention to the joints of the 230 lb. owner (lots of rock/pavement is hard on most of us).

My dogs have done tons of long hikes/runs/summits, some at high elevations and in rocky terrain. I have had to carry both dogs when I slacked on paw toughening preparation (not fun when their combined weight is 130 lbs.) Aside--helicopter out for dogs sounds crazy and irresponsible to me (BE PREPARED). I have run into a hiker on the Lost Coast Trail (N. CA) who barely made it with a struggling Saint Bernard (paw issues). Another Side note-My lab is also capable of maintaining high speeds in front of a bicylce as long as rest periods are permitted.

As mentioned, I did not pace myself well for the altitude of Langley, but the dogs were mostly fine. A brief period of AMS/dehydration was noticed in the dogs when almost at the summit (brief vomiting). I will not take them up Whitney becsuse I prefer to avoid other people and other dogs as much as possible when I take the dogs hiking with me. Having said that, if you follow the tips in this thread and have the right dog, the possibilities are almost endless.

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
srman #18832 09/29/11 05:31 PM
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By the way, if you have a big, fast, strong dog that can't get enough exercise (like I have), this link is worth its weight in gold for skijoring/trail running/hiking/bikejoring equipment: https://howlingdogalaska.com/
Cheers!
-Sean

P.S. I might attempt Whitney early next week for the first time (approaching the off-season and I have time off to burn).

Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
srman #18850 09/30/11 10:49 AM
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RE: It would be hard to add much more that is of importance.

I was just reading DUG's thread about his dogs getting giardia and thought, 'there is one more thing of importance to add to this thread'.


Check out this link:http://www.whitneyzone.com/wz/ubbthreads.php/topics/18849/Re_Giardia_hits_home#top


Lynnaroo
Re: Pets & Altitude Sickness & Sore Paws
lynn-a-roo #18856 09/30/11 01:28 PM
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Also drop down on Dug's thread to my, CMC2, comments regarding a possible canine vaccine for giardia. It may or may not work depending on which vet you talk to.

Of my 8 dogs over 50 years, all were in the mts where giardia was known to reside. 7 did not have the giardia shot and none got giardia as far as I know. The last dog had the 2 shot series since lately Colorado was experiencing quite a bit of giardia and as with the other dogs, she also did not get giardia as far as I know.

So definitely not a scientific experiment as it could well have just been chance. Check with your vets to see what they think about whether or not the shot is of any value.


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