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#20141 - 12/07/11 10:32 AM Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Some of my recent posts have been a little heavy on the theory end of things. This post is nearly purely practical. Have a look at: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves

HJ
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#20409 - 12/27/11 05:34 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
does anyone know of an actual test comparing low temp performance of currently available isobutane/propane blends such as MSR, Jetboil, GigaPower, Primus and other fuels?

At leat on the canisters, I can't find any detail info on mix ratios.

Just curious, since so far I have been buying these things based on price alone. Have had good luck with GigaPower but then so far I used an upside down canister stove for trips when freezing temps are likely. Now I have one of those Jetboil Sol units for solo trips and could shave a lot of weight on the stove if I dare to take it into snow country. Obvisously, I want to maximize my fuel use with this upright setup.
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#20412 - 12/27/11 01:10 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Fishmonger,

With almost any brand of canister gas, you're going to get significantly better cold weather performance if you use the canister upside down. However, some brands of gas are better than others.

If you're interested, I've got a blog post up that discusses which brands (by name) are best for winter use: What's the Best Brand of Gas for Cold Weather?

I've also got a list of a lot of the brands of canister gas and their prices: Fuel Price Guide (Dec. 2011) . Those prices are all from the Los Angeles area, but they ought to be fairly representative of what's out there.

HJ
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#20419 - 12/28/11 08:54 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
Fishmonger,

With almost any brand of canister gas, you're going to get significantly better cold weather performance if you use the canister upside down. However, some brands of gas are better than others.


thanks for posting the mixtures - looks like I should stick with MSR and Jetboil for the higher propane content if I leave the Helios at home. The Jetboil Sol is so much lighter for solo trips, that unless I am about to melt snow for a week, I will come out ahead in terms of weight, even if some fuel stays in the canisters. there's always the hand warmer plus sock trick or just to put the canister in your sleeping bag or inside coat pocket for a few hours.

Primus clearly is not what I'd want to bring in winter, and even in summer in the Sierra, they may not work that well.

We have an REI in town and their prices match what you found.
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#20422 - 12/28/11 12:59 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
You're welcome.

A Helios will work in colder temperatures than a Jetboil almost irrespective of the brand of gas, but if you're staying above maybe 20F, then a JB with good fuel should be fine. There won't be that much practical difference between 85/15 Snow Peak and 80/20 MSR. BUT do avoid Primus, Coleman, etc. that have "plain" butane in them.

HJ
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#20429 - 12/29/11 03:03 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
The Helios is probably my favorite stove, but it's really large for a solo trip. Melts snow like a champ in the large pot, though:



The thing about upside down operation - "throttle response" is very slow, and you do NOT want to start the thing with the canister already upside down. You make that mistake only once, learning it the hot way while you wonder how there can be a burning lake of isobutane/propane on the snow - isn't that stuff supposed to evaporate immediately? grin)

Any idea what kind of fuel is in these classic canisters?



because I have this crazy idea of doing a "retro hike" down the JMT one day sporting cotton clothing, film camera and all the old gear I can come up with, and it probably won't be in summer.
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#20431 - 12/29/11 06:01 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
CMC2 Offline


Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 160
Loc: CO
I have a small C206 Cartridge that is Butane

I have a couple of the large CV470 Cartridges that are Propane/Butane Formula but since I don't read French I do not know the percentages of either gas.

I have a couple of the large CV470 Cartridges that are NEW Propane/Butane Formula but as above I do not know the percentages of the NEW mix.

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#20433 - 12/29/11 07:52 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: CMC2]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
needs to be a C206 because the old stove is that "poke hole and stay connected" type

found a US supplier (most google hits are in the UK and for science supply companies), and she sure looks like 100% butane...

http://stores.goextremeoutdoors.com/-strse-2279/C206-Camping-Gaz-Fuel/Detail.bok

gonna have to do that hike in summer, I suppose grin

I recently did a comparison in how efficient, or better how inefficient this old setup of GAZ stove with 1980s Belgian military rectangular pot is, and if I remember correctly, the Jetboil Sol was about 30-40% more fuel efficent at room temperature.
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#20450 - 12/30/11 11:36 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger

...
because I have this crazy idea of doing a "retro hike" down the JMT one day sporting cotton clothing, film camera and all the old gear I can come up with, and it probably won't be in summer.


"Retro" is wool not cotton. For the "ultimate retro" version, leave the wool unwoven on the original hide. Unfortunately, modern hunting laws may be at odds with the acquisition of "ultimate retro" versions of backpacking foods.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#20453 - 12/30/11 03:54 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: dbd]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: dbd
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger

...
because I have this crazy idea of doing a "retro hike" down the JMT one day sporting cotton clothing, film camera and all the old gear I can come up with, and it probably won't be in summer.


"Retro" is wool not cotton. For the "ultimate retro" version, leave the wool unwoven on the original hide. Unfortunately, modern hunting laws may be at odds with the acquisition of "ultimate retro" versions of backpacking foods.

Dale B. Dalrymple


I define my "retro" as what I used to do when I first went out into the mountains, and in my case, wool actually happens to be in my modern gear closet (merino, that is), while back in the 80s I wore cotton T-shirts, jeans, running shorts, and cotton socks as liners inside of wool socks. Why? guess that's what I had and the budget allowed no fancy clothing, but it worked. Perhaps not as good as the gear I have today, but that's the point - it doesn't really matter as the endless online gear discussions tend to make it appear. Yes, cotton doesn't dry fast, is heavy, but that's what we had.
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#20456 - 12/30/11 06:52 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger

I define my "retro" as what I used to do when I first went out into the mountains, and in my case, wool actually happens to be in my modern gear closet (merino, that is), while back in the 80s I wore cotton T-shirts, jeans, running shorts, and cotton socks as liners inside of wool socks.
...


Retro means "of or designating the style of an earlier time", not what we did before we knew or could afford style.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#20460 - 12/31/11 06:31 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: dbd]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
what can I say, I guess I can't go hiking now. Messes up all my plans. Bummer. Back to the drawing board.
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#20463 - 12/31/11 07:15 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
catpappy Offline


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 120
Loc: acworth, ga
For a little more bang for your efficiency buck, don't forget your cooking pot. Black is better.

See the section under properties at this link.

http://cascadedesigns.com/MSR/FAQ/Cookware

John

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#20479 - 01/01/12 07:41 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
The Helios is probably my favorite stove, but it's really large for a solo trip. Melts snow like a champ in the large pot, though:



The thing about upside down operation - "throttle response" is very slow, and you do NOT want to start the thing with the canister already upside down. You make that mistake only once, learning it the hot way while you wonder how there can be a burning lake of isobutane/propane on the snow - isn't that stuff supposed to evaporate immediately? grin)

Any idea what kind of fuel is in these classic canisters?



because I have this crazy idea of doing a "retro hike" down the JMT one day sporting cotton clothing, film camera and all the old gear I can come up with, and it probably won't be in summer.
The really old puncture type canisters were 100% butane. They still sell the same canisters, but now they're a butane-propane blend. I don't know the percentages though.

Big Five sells the puncture type canisters. They're not that hard to find.

HJ
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#20480 - 01/01/12 07:45 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
I define my "retro" as what I used to do when I first went out into the mountains, and in my case, wool actually happens to be in my modern gear closet (merino, that is), while back in the 80s I wore cotton T-shirts, jeans, running shorts, and cotton socks as liners inside of wool socks. Why? guess that's what I had and the budget allowed no fancy clothing, but it worked. Perhaps not as good as the gear I have today, but that's the point - it doesn't really matter as the endless online gear discussions tend to make it appear. Yes, cotton doesn't dry fast, is heavy, but that's what we had.
Same here. I started hiking in the 60's and BP'ing in the 70's. Blue jeans. Cotton "T" shirts. Cotton Flannel shirts. I did have a nice down bag and a nylon down jacket. We used flannel pajamas as long johns. When we first started, we used a coffee can on a long wire fashioned into a bail. Later we "upgraded" to a little butane stove, and then when they stopped making canisters for that stove, we got a little Optimus 8R. Wish I knew what happened to that little 8R.

HJ
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#20552 - 01/05/12 08:14 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
I started hiking in the 60's and BP'ing in the 70's. Blue jeans. Cotton "T" shirts. Cotton Flannel shirts. I did have a nice down bag and a nylon down jacket. We used flannel pajamas as long johns. When we first started, we used a coffee can on a long wire fashioned into a bail. Later we "upgraded" to a little butane stove, and then when they stopped making canisters for that stove, we got a little Optimus 8R. Wish I knew what happened to that little 8R.

HJ


I started in the late 70s. In 1980 I still was into long distance bike touring, but by '81 the mountains were calling. Gear - well - look at this:



The blue bag is a down sleeping bag, but it was a horrible design with zipper all around the bottom and no real foot box. Cold feet every night. Ground pad was open cell foam with a little reflective material on the outside. Completely no R-value or padding. Pack was the base model from the German Sears-equivalent, clothes were all cotton except for a nylon windbreaker that didn't keep me dry. I invested in a poncho a few years later (which I still used as a tent footprint in 2008). At least the ass-kicker boots were ready for anything. I didn't cook in the mountains until about 1984, and only because I met my long term hiking partner at that time, and he had a GAZ. What a difference that made in terms of comfort.
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#20553 - 01/05/12 08:59 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7739
Loc: Fresno, CA
Fish man, just curious -- where was that picture taken?

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#20557 - 01/05/12 11:48 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Steve C]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
breaking out the old Gmap4:

South of St. Dalmas on the GR 5

I went alone from Grenoble to Nice on and off the GR5 trail prior to heading to Corsica that summer.

using the French IGN maps (that show the trail), I was about here when the camera self timer took that shot - map center below the peak called La Caire Gros.
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#20579 - 01/06/12 09:42 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Quote:
I started hiking in the 60's and BP'ing in the 70's. ... Wish I knew what happened to that little 8R.

HJ


I started hiking in the mountains in the 50's in the usual kids t-shirt and jeans. I didn't BP until I was out of the house. My father had camped out year-round in Europe for a couple years in the early 40's and wasn't interested in introducing camping to his family as a sport.

I first went up Whitney in '71 on the 42nd and final day of my second BP, a hike down from Tahoe. I had a down bag, which I still use, and carried a space blanket, poncho, denim jacket and wool sweater. I carried a Svea 123 for comfort instead of a foam pad. It's amazing how good you can get at excavating shoulder and hip depressions in the ground before you spread the space blanket when you need to. (That didn't work so well in the gravel and rock the night I spent on top of Caltech Peak.) I know where the Svea is, but I haven't used it in the current century. We have, as you describe, so many better choices now.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#20582 - 01/06/12 01:35 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
catpappy Offline


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 120
Loc: acworth, ga
Jim, I have two Optimus 99. One bought in 77 the other bought in 79 as a backup when I did the AT. Was using one or the other until a few years ago when I got the WindPro. That sputtering roar is so nostalgic for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMCUDUfueo

John

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#20585 - 01/06/12 06:28 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I still remember the huge leather boots everyone wore back then. Somewhere in all my gear I still have the all leather Norwegian welt Lowa boots my dad bought me in the 70's.

HJ
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#20586 - 01/06/12 06:33 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: catpappy]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: catpappy
Jim, I have two Optimus 99. One bought in 77 the other bought in 79 as a backup when I did the AT. Was using one or the other until a few years ago when I got the WindPro. That sputtering roar is so nostalgic for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMCUDUfueo

John
John,

Is that your stove? It's in beautiful shape. Yeah, we've got lighter weight choices now, but I still love taking out the classics.

HJ
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#20590 - 01/06/12 09:45 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7739
Loc: Fresno, CA
Ha! I have a 40-year-old Optimus 111b -- still stored in my hiking "junk" box. That thing must weigh 24 ounces or so ...empty! We actually backpacked with it a few times. Steel case, steel kettle supports, heavy brass stove structure. And noisy. But it could sure put out the heat.

I found these youtube videos:     Optimus 111B camp stove

This guy doesn't pressurize the tank, and fusses with bottles to prime. (His fiddling with the pump is funny.)
    Optimus 111 Hiker Stove

Correct lighting method:   Pressurize with pump. Open the valve and let a little fuel run into the bowl. Close valve. Light and burn (about 30-60 seconds). When flame is almost out, open valve to allow stove to operate. Once burner is fully heated, open completely for full burn.

Wagga will like this video:
    World Record Optimus 111 Stove Lighting

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#20592 - 01/07/12 04:33 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Steve C]
catpappy Offline


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 120
Loc: acworth, ga
Jim, thats not my stove, but mine are in good shape. Actually, the main reason for buying the WindPro was to have a stove I could fly with and would perform better at altitude. Even when empty, there is a little bit of residual fuel in the 99 tank. Figured that might be a problem for TSA.

Steve, all those 111's going sounds like a shuttle launch.

John

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#20782 - 01/18/12 05:03 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: catpappy]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
now this is truly old school:

TACOMA, Wash. (AP) — A snowshoer who was lost in a blizzard for two days on Washington state's Mount Rainier said he stayed alive by digging out a snow tunnel and burning the dollar bills for warmth.

Yong Chun Kim, 66, of Tacoma, said he carried a lighter and other emergency supplies and burned personal items: extra socks, Band-Aid, toothbrush, packaging, and lastly $1 and $5 bills from his wallet.


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#22839 - 04/13/12 03:52 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Well, we got a little off topic (in a good way) smile in this thread.

I thought I'd bring us back to the topic of canister gas and cold weather. I'd like to dispel a myth that's out there: The myth of "fractioning."

Fractioning suggests that in cold weather, only that portion of your canister that is propane will burn. If you've got a 100g canister of 70% butane and 30% propane, 70g of your fuel would never burn and would just sit there essentially useless in your canister. This is not the case.

Well, if fractioning is "off," then what is the case? The short answer is that for the typical canister stove, more gas will burn than just the propane -- but you may still get some unburned butane left over. Want to know how it all works? I invite you to peruse my latest blog post: Gas in Cold Weather: The Myth of "Fractioning"

HJ
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#22842 - 04/13/12 05:37 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7739
Loc: Fresno, CA
Thanks for posting that, Jim.

So you ARE saying that if you have an upright canister stove, more propane will burn off early and less butane, so over the life of the canister, there is more butane left behind, effectively raising the vaporization temperature. So once only (or mostly) butane is left behind, the vaporization temperature is pretty close to that of butane, 31F.

And the result is that the canister just wouldn't work on snow trip.

I'd take my Coleman Fuel pump type stove on any winter trip. Those will always work in the snow.

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#22843 - 04/13/12 05:42 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Steve C]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Did I not read that some stoves will use an inverted canister, thus assuring no fractionation - 100% burn?
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#22845 - 04/13/12 06:03 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Steve C]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
So you ARE saying that if you have an upright canister stove, more propane will burn off early and less butane, so over the life of the canister, there is more butane left behind, effectively raising the vaporization temperature. So once only (or mostly) butane is left behind, the vaporization temperature is pretty close to that of butane, 31F.
Yes. If your secondary fuel is regular butane. So don't use regular butane. See point #1 in my blog post (linked to in the original post).

Originally Posted By: Steve C
And the result is that the canister just wouldn't work on snow trip.
Well, it's not quite that simple. It depends on altitude, the fuel you're using, the outside temperature, and what techniques you use to keep the canister warm. I have another blog post where I tried to tie all these disparate things together. See Canisters, Cold, and Altitude: Gas in a Nutshell

Originally Posted By: Steve C
I'd take my Coleman Fuel pump type stove on any winter trip. Those will always work in the snow.
You're always pretty safe there.

HJ
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#22846 - 04/13/12 06:06 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: wagga
Did I not read that some stoves will use an inverted canister, thus assuring no fractionation - 100% burn?
Well, there is no such thing as "fractioning" (where only the propane burns off), but, yes, that's correct that inverted canister stoves get 100% burn. Also, inverted canister stoves will work in weather that's about 20F colder than regular canister stoves. See point number 2 in this blog post.

HJ
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#22847 - 04/13/12 06:31 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Here is an experiment. Take a can of Coleman's fluid which is 10 years old. Then a same brand-can you bought last week. Toss some of each on the fire. During the decade, even in a "sealed" can, a lot of the more volatile short-chains will escape (Fractioning). Ask me how I know. Boom!
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#22848 - 04/13/12 06:35 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: wagga
Here is an experiment. Take a can of Coleman's fluid which is 10 years old. Then a same brand-can you bought last week. Toss some of each on the fire. During the decade, even in a "sealed" can, a lot of the more volatile short-chains will escape (Fractioning). Ask me how I know. Boom!
lol. Sounds reasonable, but that's a totally different use of the word fractioning.

HJ
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#22849 - 04/13/12 06:54 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Fractionation is a physical process. Here is the Wiki.

Essentially, given a container with a mix of different boiling-point compounds, and an escape route, the lower-boiling point compounds will preferentially exit the container, thus fractionating the remainder to a less-volatile residue. The first burn is like cherry-picking, and subsequent burns are, in insurance terms, "Adverse Selection", which is why, as you have advocated, the inverted canister is the correct solution. QED.
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#22852 - 04/13/12 07:16 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: wagga
Fractionation is a physical process. Here is the Wiki.

Essentially, given a container with a mix of different boiling-point compounds, and an escape route, the lower-boiling point compounds will preferentially exit the container, thus fractionating the remainder to a less-volatile residue. The first burn is like cherry-picking, and subsequent burns are, in insurance terms, "Adverse Selection", which is why, as you have advocated, the inverted canister is the correct solution. QED.
Uh, don't get to wrapped around the word "fractionating."

Here's my my point: There are those that suggest that there are temperatures at which 100% of the propane in a canister will burn off but 0% of the butane will burn. This is incorrect. No such temperatures exist.

HJ
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#22853 - 04/13/12 07:45 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
Here's my my point: There are those that suggest that there are temperatures at which 100% of the propane in a canister will burn off but 0% of the butane will burn. This is incorrect. No such temperatures exist.
HJ

Fractionation (in this specific case where the driving force is boiling point) is actually independent of temperature. At zero degrees Kelvin, evaporation is measured in molecules/fortnight, but the the lighter constituents will still fractionate, and at terrestrial temperatures it's faster, but still proportional to the boiling points of the constituent molecules.

Fractionation is useful in this context because it is widely defined and understood by the scientific community. In this case we are looking at the residue left in the container - it might be the reverse of what you are expecting, but it is still the exact same scientific principle.
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#22854 - 04/13/12 07:49 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

HJ
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#22855 - 04/13/12 08:33 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2248
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
In China, the better tea commands a higher price, so those tea molecules evaporate at a lower rate... or something like that.

We agree on the end result, but not on the exact terminology. It might seem to be a technicality, but if you put diesel fuel in your gasoline vehicle, or vice-versa you would notice the difference while you wait for AAA.

Fractionation has a specific scientific meaning. Whether you are centrifuging Uranium 235 out of natural Uranium or merely operating a stove, fractionation is a physical law.

As far as I know, the physical law operates in China - and probably on any planet orbiting Sirius, the Dog Star - but that has yet to be proven.
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#22863 - 04/14/12 07:39 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Glenn Offline


Registered: 09/16/11
Posts: 105
Loc: Oklahoma
Hikin' Jim,

You realize, of course, that's the same myth that says if you put wine in your spaghetti sauce all of the alcohol will just boil-off right away. It doesn't happen like that for the reasons you explained. The more volatile component (the alcohol, in this case) will be preferentially partitioned into the vapor, and only gradually depleted from the liquid over a period of time as the sauce is simmering.

Hmm, maybe a little off topic.

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#22864 - 04/14/12 08:15 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: wagga]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: wagga
We agree on the end result, but not on the exact terminology.
That's a fair assessment.

In retrospect, using "fractioning" to describe the myth that only the propane will burn was a poor choice of words since "fraction" and "fractionation" are so similar. I was actually trying to use layman's terms.

HJ
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#22865 - 04/14/12 08:17 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Glenn]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Glenn
You realize, of course, that's the same myth that says if you put wine in your spaghetti sauce all of the alcohol will just boil-off right away. It doesn't happen like that for the reasons you explained. The more volatile component (the alcohol, in this case) will be preferentially partitioned into the vapor, and only gradually depleted from the liquid over a period of time as the sauce is simmering.

Hmm, maybe a little off topic.
Not off topic at all. That's a great illustration, one that a lot of people can relate to.

HJ
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#22871 - 04/14/12 02:41 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Whitney Fan Offline


Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 213
Loc: Las Vegas
15/16 + 3/8 - 1/2 X 17/14 = ?

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#22872 - 04/14/12 05:39 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Glenn]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: Glenn
Hikin' Jim,

You realize, of course, that's the same myth that says if you put wine in your spaghetti sauce all of the alcohol will just boil-off right away. It doesn't happen like that for the reasons you explained.


tested that in the field in Corsica - yummie - bottle in the middle went into the sauce, well, some of it grin

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#22873 - 04/14/12 05:46 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Whitney Fan]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7739
Loc: Fresno, CA
15/16 + 3/8 - 1/2 X 17/14 = 79/112 = 0.705357142

Fish: There's no stove in that picture, and it's definitely not cold weather. Therefore, your post is off-topic. grin

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#22891 - 04/15/12 06:47 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Whitney Fan]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Whitney Fan
15/16 + 3/8 - 1/2 X 17/14 = ?
Now THAT is what I call fractioning.

HJ
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#22961 - 04/17/12 10:01 AM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
tested that in the field in Corsica - yummie - bottle in the middle went into the sauce, well, some of it grin

Hey, nice Jansport. What model? What year?

HJ
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#22974 - 04/17/12 01:37 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: hikin_jim]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: hikin_jim
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
tested that in the field in Corsica - yummie - bottle in the middle went into the sauce, well, some of it grin

Hey, nice Jansport. What model? What year?

HJ


no clue about the model, but this was 1984 and I think it was new to me that year. Didn't like it very much - very soft overall and the internal frame on it was too flexible for its size.

The GAZ Bleuet stove was somewhere nearby and about to go into action.
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#22993 - 04/17/12 06:19 PM Re: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves [Re: Fishmonger]
hikin_jim Offline


Registered: 11/07/10
Posts: 148
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
1984? That's about when I bought my old Jansport D2, an enormous external frame pack. Good pack for that monster load. Yipes.

HJ
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