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Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23037 04/18/12 08:16 PM
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Let's see if I can separate the two questions:

1) Pucker factor. All three climbs are different animals, so they can make you nervous is very different ways.
Angel's Landing (AL) has a very steep drop-off and a narrow walkway, and from what I remember, the chain was only on the inside. Stepping away from the chain was the scariest part for me, but the trail itself is level due to steps in the rock.

Half Dome (HD) is steep, with a drop off directly behind/in front of you, and the rock is slick. But you are in the middle of a broad face with something "solid" onto which you can hold/clip in.

The MR Final 400 (F4) only really felt exposed to me when it was full of snow. There are ledges galore in the chute (when melted out) and the scrambling/walking between the ledges really isn't too bad. The most difficult spot, I thought was the entrance (in summer). It's about 3-4 moves of Class 3 on some moderately positive holds which are easier to grab if you're taller. There is also the crack nearer the notch, but I've only done that when there has been snow to raise the entry and then jam my crampons/boots into the crack.

Again, YMMV based on what freaks you out the most. For me, it's edges, not heights. Sometimes, even a 10ft drop will freak me out if I'm too close to the edge. I've heard of accomplished technical climbers (gym) getting sketched on the F4.

2) "DIfficulty" of the climb.

AL: 5 miles RT, the first 2 miles of the trail are paved (!!). Gain of <1500 vertical feet. Strenuous because of the steepness, but it ends quickly. Summit elevation: 5785 ft. (Plenty of O2)



Angel's Landing Description

HD: 14+ miles (via Mist Trail), 4800 vertical. Short stretches of serious up, but great spots to rest and cruise (Vernal Falls, top of Nevada Falls, skirting Little Yosemite Valley, base of the cables). A full day, and the down can be as brutal as the up on quads and toes. Summit elevation: 8842 ft (higher but still quite moderate, can cause some difficulties if not acclimated)

Half Dome Info

MR: Mileage depends on who you ask. Doug swears it's <4 miles, I think it's closer to 6. 6100 vertical, topping out at 14,500ft give or take 8 feet. While in snow there may be a boot track, and in summer there is a use trail, this is the Mountaineer's Route, and requires some route finding as you trudge along. To me, this adds substantially to the "difficulty". Altitude plays a major role: you start just under the final elevation of HD, and climb to where rocks and marmots and birds like to hang out. You hit the scrambling section when you are both exhausted from slogging up from Iceberg Lake and exhilarated to be so close to the summit.

Wow, that's probably more detail than anyone wanted, but there it is...

-L


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Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
MooseTracks #23040 04/18/12 11:39 PM
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Nice picture of Angels Landing, Laura. They call the squiggly switchbacks "Wally's Wiggles". They used an earth-tone concrete to pave that section.

Here's my rating: I have done all three, and I don't usually get intimidated by heights.

I'd rate Angels Landing the least intimidating. There were entire families up there! The exposed part is fairly level trail. As Laura says, if you step away from the chains and off the trail, that would be dangerous. I don't think I even used the chains.

Half Dome cables is next. There, if you let go, you're going to hurtle down the granite. So you MUST hang on! But the cable is there, and it is strong. Except when it is so cold that your hands freeze and you can't grip, or wet and slippery, you're ok.

The Final 400 on Whitney: It is all up to you. Still not THAT bad from exposure, but you must pick your own hand and footholds. There is no obvious route, so you have to look around and decide where is best to go. Takes more care and watchfulness, in my thinking.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
MooseTracks #23041 04/19/12 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: MooseTracks

Again, YMMV based on what freaks you out the most. For me, it's edges, not heights. Sometimes, even a 10ft drop will freak me out if I'm too close to the edge.


I'm the same way. 10ft doesn't usually bother me, but even dropping into the top of a steep run while snowboarding sometimes freaks me out if it has a pronounced edge.

How crowded does Angels Landing get on weekends? When I did HD there weren't too many people on the cables. However, one of the times I've been most sketched out while hiking was on the Mist Trail below Vernal Falls at 10AM on a Saturday with several hundred of my fellow nature lovers. (We were headed to Nevada Falls and got a late start) There was a person on pretty much every step, and there were quite a few people with hiking poles who were using them to painstakingly haul themselves up the wet steps. I kept wondering how many people they would take out if their pole slipped. There were also a lot of people who needed to stop and rest every few steps, and many would stand in the middle of the trail instead of picking a wide step and scooting off to the side so people could pass safely. If Angels Landing gets crowded I'm thinking it could look like a bad combination of that and the HD cables.

Angels Landing looks the worst to me not because of difficulty or actual risk, but because there isn't any comforting wall of rock to stare at when the vertigo kicks in. The final 400 of the MR, OTOH, looks like fun.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
amg #23042 04/19/12 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: amg
How crowded does Angels Landing get on weekends?


As Steve said , whole families up there. I have been up there with our kids when they were grade schoolers. Went back another time when they were college age and wife turned around part way up because it was Easter weekend and so many people running, jostling, passing each other that she was afraid of getting bumped off. Sounds like HD. But not the MR.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Harvey Lankford #23070 04/20/12 06:36 AM
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In terms of exposure -
I would rate Half Dome as the most intimidating. Margin for error is minimal and your brain knows it. This always instills trepidation and fear in me. I realize there are safety cables and wooden steps. But a slip and fall could prove instantly deadly.

MR - Exposure is minimal. Without snow and ice the final 400 is an easy and fun class III scramble. Only a few spots where a slip and fall could result almost certain death. It can be a bit intimidating when you first drop back into the chute from the summit. But once you are taking a few feet at a time instead of looking at the whole section, the fear is quickly overcome. Of course all this changes when snow and ice are present and it can quickly become a mountaineering adventure only to tackled by people with complete mountaineering skills and training. I cannot compare to HD in this case because you would never catch me trying to summit HD with cables down and ice/snow on the granite slab.

Angels Landing -
Minimal exposure and class II the whole way. A fall in any of the approach and summit will not likely result in death/serious injury. The exposure can seem intimidating as you approach from the subdome but the actual climbing sections are well routed and protected. The whole hike can be done without hands, but the handrail chains are a nice comfort and add a nice protection feeling.

Results may vary from hiker to hiker - just my .02c worth.

HD - 3x
MR - 27x
AL - 1x

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
CaT #23073 04/20/12 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: CaT
The only way to overcome your fear factor is to do it.

Upon arriving at the the HD cables the first time, my response was "no way!". I tried it anyway after watching others for a couple of minutes, and was glad I did. Now my fear factor for HD cables has converted into a highly-focused awareness of my surroundings. Whenever I do something like this for the first time, and just push through it, it then becomes easier to do the next time.

"Failure" on one trail does not means not trying another. You try each trail on its own merits, go as far as you can, and perhaps you will end up on the summit. But even if you don't, the experience getting there will be worth it, and your next goal will be to go back and go a little further up the next time. You keep trying until you make it.

I assume your "Class 4" question about Honnold, et al. was tongue-in-cheek. wink

CaT


+1 Well said.


"Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying" Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption
Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
John P. #23090 04/20/12 04:17 PM
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2600fromatari -- I appreciate your acknowledgment of my plans at age 70 (2015). But lets wait to see if the chicken actually gets hatched! I'm pretty sure I'll consider the Mountaineer's Route ONLY if I can find someone familiar with the route who would enjoy accompanying me (I've already lobbied Steve and am considering lobbying Laura grin.) I will want to day hike it going up the MR and down the main trail. If I decide against the MR then it's likely I'll do my second day hike of the main trail (first time was in 2004).

I'm not nearly so frequent a hiker of big routes as many of the people on this board, but I will be doing a rim to rim day hike of the Grand Canyon this October and promise a trip report.

Laura -- dynamite picture of Angel's Landing. I have a few pictures relevant to this thread (particularly one of a section of Camelback) I'd like to post but my understanding is that they have to be online to be linked to in posts here (right Steve?).

Also, Laura, fear not your "more detail", at least as far as this man is concerned. (Anyone who knows me will attest to the fact that I go by the mantra, "Why bother with a few words when 1,000 or so will do better?")

Tomcat rc -- I'm not sure what your "3X" (for HD - Half Dome), "27X" (for Mountaineer's Route), and "1X" (for Angel's Landing) mean at all. Could you elaborate, please?

Everyone -- comments all very interesting and I hope we get some more. It doesn't look like a Camelbacker has chipped in yet (maybe no Camelbacker has read the posts yet).

My obviously subjective thoughts based on what I know and have read thus far are that -- at least for me -- the "pucker factor" (related to exposure) is probably going to feel about the same for me at any of the 4 locations cited (I've so far only been to one of them -- Angel's Landing (other 3 locations MR final 400, MR E Ledges, Half Dome). That did not bother me that much and I'm thinking I'd likely have that same feeling for the other three locations). I'm thinking that the "difficulty" also is going to probably feel about the same to me at any of the 4 locations cited (the legs and arms workout appeared to be about the same for me at both Angel's Landing and Camelback Mountain and I haven't read anything yet to show me that it would be significantly easier or harder at Half Dome or the final 400).

(Did I say something earlier about a propensity to say a lot?! :))


Last edited by Whitney Fan; 04/20/12 04:24 PM. Reason: clarify locations for exposure and difficulty
Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23093 04/20/12 04:30 PM
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I think Tomcat means he has done those "X number of times", meaning he's done the MR 27 times.

If Steve or Laura is not available, I'll be more than happy to keep you company if my work schedule permits.

I still think it's awesome you're planning this. People I know more than half your age aren't as adventurous or in shape for it. Rock on.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23096 04/20/12 05:07 PM
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Whitney Fan wrote:
> I have a few pictures relevant to this thread (particularly one of a section of Camelback) I'd like to post but my understanding is that they have to be online to be linked to in posts here (right Steve?).

WF: You can upload pictures directly to the WhitneyZone picture gallery, so the are online. Then they can be displayed in these posts. If you open the Picture Gallery, at the top you see the line:
* * * * Instructions for storing pictures: Uploading Pictures to the Picture Gallery. * * * *
Click on the link and it will take you to a thread with step-by-step instructions to upload the pictures, followed by steps to include them in your posts.

Now... unless your pictures are only on paper, it is just a matter of following the steps. The hardest part is understanding how to "navigate to folders and devices connected to your computer". If you can find files on your computer, that is the biggest hurdle. Good luck!

And by the way, send me a reminder this fall.... I've been itching to do a GC R-2-R myself.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23100 04/20/12 05:44 PM
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Thanks, WhitneyFan. The pic is not one of mine, got it from the site referenced below it. But I was impressed with the angle myself!

You said this was next year, right?


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Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23107 04/20/12 09:58 PM
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Whitney Fan. I climbed the Mt Route at age 70 ( 3 weeks short of being 71) with no difficulty. In fact, I was following the legend Bob Rockwell who led our group of 4 and Bob is a couple of years older than I am. The ledges were of no particular difficulty either but this was in August and there was no snow or ice. We used no ice axes, technical gear or anything other than alot of water and snacks plus hiking poles.

I don't think you need to be at all gun-shy about climbing that route as long as you have done your training and altitude preparation and take it slowly and with caution.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
CMC2 #23171 04/23/12 05:14 PM
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2600fromatari -- I like to think my intellect is my biggest asset, but it undoubtedly went south with my failing to understand the "X"'s. Your explanation has got to be the correct one. I appreciate your potential availablity to do the MR with me some day -- and I appreciate your compliment, once again, about my ambitions given my age. (Those ambitions seemed to be in play Saturday night when I headed home at 7:30 AM in the morning after a night at a local Las Vegas club!)

Steve -- thanks so much for your revelation that I apparently CAN post some pictures here without using an external web site to host them. I'll do just that in another post. And regarding your possibly doing the rim to rim hike at the Grand Canyon . . . were you implying you might do one THIS fall? If so, unless your planning to camp (and I haven't researched those options), be advised that reservations for north and south rim hotels must be made WAY in advance. (I made mine a full year or more in advance.) I doubt that you'd be able to reserve at the North Rim (with only one hotel) for this fall at this time.

Laura -- when you say "You said this was next year, right?", I'm not sure if you are referring to the rim to rim hike (which will be THIS year) or my potential Mountaineers Route hike (which will be not NEXT year but in 2015!). If that doesn't answer your question please let me know.

CMC2 -- looks like we both are refusing to "grow up", huh?! Your assessment of being able to do the MR mirrors my thinking.




Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23179 04/23/12 05:48 PM
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Here are some pictures to illustrate some things previously discussed in this thread.

Overall view of the last 1/2 mile of Angel's Landing:



A section of that last 1/2 mile without chains:



And a section of it with chains:



Finally, a portion of the trail up Camelback Mountain. From what I've seen of pictures of the "final 400" on the Mountaineer's Route, is that route much different in terms of using your hands and feet than what you see here? (Granted, the exposure on the MR is different.)



(Thanks again, Steve, for the good steer to me about how to post these shots and include them in my posts.)


Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23181 04/23/12 06:41 PM
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A few more pics of the chained route On AL. yes, the flower off the side shows the exposure, but don't step over there.

I have never been to Camelback, but the final 400 MR is harder/more intimidating than those pics of Camelback













Last edited by Harvey Lankford; 04/23/12 06:56 PM.
Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23183 04/23/12 07:27 PM
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I haven't done the MR or Camelback, but from that pic of Camelback, it looks like not only is it much less steep with no exposure, there are no route finding skills needed. You just trot up the rocks any which way. And someone even has their little dog!

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
amg #23193 04/24/12 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: amg
I haven't done the MR or Camelback, but from that pic of Camelback, it looks like not only is it much less steep with no exposure, there are no route finding skills needed. You just trot up the rocks any which way. And someone even has their little dog!
Hi amg,

Do you imply that a dog can't get up the Mountaineers route?

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Yury #23211 04/24/12 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Yury
Originally Posted By: amg
I haven't done the MR or Camelback, but from that pic of Camelback, it looks like not only is it much less steep with no exposure, there are no route finding skills needed. You just trot up the rocks any which way. And someone even has their little dog!
Hi amg,

Do you imply that a dog can't get up the Mountaineers route?


I've never done it, so I don't know. But it looks like it would be a horrible idea. And did you see the size of the dog in the posted photo?

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Whitney Fan #23224 04/24/12 09:32 PM
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Great pix. I'm feeling better about my 1st ever AL hike coming up soon on May 3rd.Bty, I recently booked a nice room just outside the Park at the South Rim of the Grand Canyon.

Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
RenoFrank #23226 04/24/12 10:01 PM
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Angels Landing is overrated Frank. Once you're done with it, the place you need to visit is the Narrows. It's a very cool experience and hike. It's not strenuous or has cool drop offs to show your friends, but it's one of my most memorable hikes. It was just fun sloshing through the river with the canyon walls towering above you on both sides. Just make sure to check the flood warnings before entering and watch the color of the water.

Crappy cellphone pictures, but you get the idea:


Re: EXPOSURE & OTHER DIFFICULTY COMPARED
Anonymous1 #23232 04/24/12 11:25 PM
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Yes, the Narrows hike is truly memorable. But takes a lot more preparation:
Permits required, and there is a tight quota. And you have to arrange for a shuttle to the trail head.

My group had planned on backpacking it and spending a night, but several spooked about leaving our mountain bikes unattended in the park for an overnight, so we switched and day hiked it. I think the day hike was perfect. We did the hike in September.

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