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#23161 - 04/23/12 01:09 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Steve C]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Steve C
...
This thread is pretty good reading, and quite informative. I just don't understand the reasons for argumentative tone. confused

Steve

When someone on the opposite side of an issue from me persists in behaving like a stereo-type politician or used car salesman, the behavior is obvious and harms the effectiveness of the presentation of that side of the issue. When someone on my side of an issue persists in behaving like a stereo-type politician or used car salesman, the behavior is obvious and harms the effectiveness of the presentation of my side of the issue. Inconsistent presentations are just as harmful.

The obvious extension of that is that I consider calls to the wrong action from someone who is seen as on my side of an issue as far more harmful than the wrong calls from those recognized as disagreeing with me.

Even if the only goal is to give people enough information to know what to realistically expect, the issue is the same.

I'd like to see people presented with information accurate enough to allow them to take effective action. (Of course, this works best if you only advocate issues so just that you have the confidence to believe that the truth will help you. smile ) I think that the truth is the best way to achieve that and that complicated situations can not be honestly presented by persisting with simple substitutions.


Burchey

If you can reach your bliss without the facts, it is nice and green of you to not waste energy by reading.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#23200 - 04/24/12 09:22 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Steve C]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1139
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Steve C
DBD and Sierra Nevada, are you two arguing? If you are, I am sure wondering what point each of you is trying to make.
Steve, I went back through this entire thread before responding. My point should come through in a consistent theme that LADWP's lawsuit against Mammoth is a misguided strategy and they should stop the aggressive legalistic approach to every problem. It's very similar to what Mammoth Community Water District wrote in their summary that requests LADWP to negotiate rather than sue. I included quotes, historical facts, links, and even some Dr Suess humor to try to illustrate my point.

My quote of former LADWP Manager David Freeman was called into question - I had to go back and find the exact link as if I made it up. There's another common theme in this thread - anything negative about LADWP's history is labeled a "misrepresentation" and "manipulation." The argument seems to be that the farmers all sold their land fair and square and now LADWP is under attack.

And most recently, the idea that LADWP could actually turn around their public image by acting in a more diplomatic manner seems like it's being mocked.

All this is typical web forum banter, nothing a little thick skin can't ward off as long as it doesn't get personal.

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#23202 - 04/24/12 10:20 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: SierraNevada]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1019
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Rather than argue over the tiny details of legalese, and history, and try to score points, let me try to give an example of two extreme sides, using a land rather than a water issue:


The Indians sold Manhatttan for $24 in trinkets,so the deal was fair and square. So shut up.

versus

Give the land back to the owners, now represented by the distant kin who run the Paiute Palace in Bishop. If you can't give it all back, give some, or give tax breaks, food stamps, or other subsidies.

Which is ethically, morally, or legally right? Different viewpoints obviously.




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#23203 - 04/24/12 11:45 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Harvey Lankford]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1139
Loc: NorCal
Harvey, those two extreme positions leave a large middle ground of other options. I don't think Dale and I are that far off. I think Dale is trying to find a balance but it comes across to me as being overly defensive of LADWP.

I don't read anyone asking LADWP to give the land or the water back. They won the battle. LA would not be the LA we know today if they didn't get this water supply 100 yrs ago. The conveyance system they built is amazing.

However, when any large entity buys out an entire area to extract the resources, be it water, or minerals, or whatever, that entity has an obligation to address the impacts they are causing to the people of that area and the environment. Most every company in that position is sensitive to their image and they make an effort to be seen as a good steward. In the case of LADWP, they have created a perception of a feudal land baron lording over the residents with a team of aggressive lawyers - fighting about Mono Lake, the worst dust bowl in the country, and every last drop of water. They lose most of the cases, but they know they can bury any small town in legal fees, especially Mammoth who's already reeling from a development scheme-gone-bad lawsuit.

When you're in a deep hole, the first rule is to stop digging. LADWP could do that and start reinventing themselves at any point. What's more "LA" than that? It will take time and it has to be sincere, but its entirely possible. One major problem is the revolving door of management turnover that's been happening in the last decade. The bigger question is, do they even care what people think of them?

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#23204 - 04/24/12 12:25 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: SierraNevada]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1019
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I think Dale is trying to find a balance but it comes across to me as being overly defensive of LADWP.

agreed


Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
The bigger question is, do they even care what people think of them?

no

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#23205 - 04/24/12 12:25 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: dbd]
Burchey
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: dbd

Burchey

If you can reach your bliss without the facts, it is nice and green of you to not waste energy by reading.

Dale B. Dalrymple


Dale, if you know how much bliss I reach on a daily basis sans logic/facts, it would thaw your beard.

FWIW, I use those carbon credits to fuel my pursuit of aggravating my peer group.

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#23248 - 04/25/12 08:30 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Harvey Lankford]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I think Dale is trying to find a balance but it comes across to me as being overly defensive of LADWP.

agreed


Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
The bigger question is, do they even care what people think of them?

no


That's the question I asked on the 22nd. Why are you guys so slow to get the point about the nature of of LA? You guys are much too charitable to LA.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#23249 - 04/25/12 08:37 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: ]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Burchey
Dale, if you know how much bliss I reach on a daily basis sans logic/facts, it would thaw your beard.

FWIW, I use those carbon credits to fuel my pursuit of aggravating my peer group.

I would never question the size of your bliss, but who would have thought that you could have a peer group?

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#23250 - 04/25/12 08:46 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: dbd]
Burchey
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: dbd

I would never question the size of your bliss, but who would have thought that you could have a peer group?

Dale B. Dalrymple


Well played, Dale. Well played.

In reality, I don't have a peer group - I just slum with you guys because I'm bored.

Hi Five!

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#23269 - 04/25/12 10:52 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 828
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
Actually, Manhatten was a swamp that the indians didn't really want.

My wife and I live just across a small stream from the local Paiute (Nuuma) rez, and I worked for the local indian health clinic. The reservation sits on the prime, the best land in the area; beautiful, green, and highly fertile. The pre-white invasion indians lived up the hill on dry ground - they were anxious to avoid the annual Spring runoff flooding.

Give them benefits? Well...FYI, all American Indians get excellent benefits, low-cost housing, tax-breaks, and free medical and dental treatment. They also get regular free, government supplied food handouts(usually white-man stuff that makes indians fat); called commodity food or commods, for short.

The local tribal members also get an annual check containing their share of the local casino profits.


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#23329 - 04/26/12 06:12 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: ]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
Originally Posted By: Burchey

In reality, I don't have a peer group - I just slum with you guys because I'm bored.


Oh, you do indeed have a peer group, Adam...

And they miss you... wink
_________________________
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#23331 - 04/26/12 06:44 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: MooseTracks]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1139
Loc: NorCal
I'm betting Burchey has a beer group.

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#23333 - 04/26/12 07:47 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: MooseTracks]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2247
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Originally Posted By: MooseTracks
Originally Posted By: Burchey

In reality, I don't have a peer group - I just slum with you guys because I'm bored.


Oh, you do indeed have a peer group, Adam...

And they miss you... wink


That triggers a virus alert!
_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#23335 - 04/26/12 10:40 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: MooseTracks]
Burchey
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: MooseTracks
Originally Posted By: Burchey

In reality, I don't have a peer group - I just slum with you guys because I'm bored.


Oh, you do indeed have a peer group, Adam...

And they miss you... wink


scorched

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#23340 - 04/27/12 06:08 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: ]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
<warms hands>
_________________________
Facebook

Flickr Pics

Think outside the Zone.

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#23361 - 04/27/12 06:57 PM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: MooseTracks]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 595
Loc: Manchester, NH
Little shop of sadness

Another article on 'good neighbor' LADWP

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#23368 - 04/28/12 07:41 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: KevinR]
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 828
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
LADWP has been destroying old buildings in our valley for a long, long time. There must be something offense to LA (the land of the beautiful people) about anything old...or perhaps there is some concern that the old structures will somehow pollute "their" groundwater. Who knows?!

The attitude of locals to the quality of LA's water might be reflected in a piece of graffiti that used to be seen on the men's room wall of the County courthouse in Independence: "Flush hard; it's a long way to LA!"

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#23370 - 04/28/12 10:47 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: Bob West]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1139
Loc: NorCal
If the facts described in this story are correct, and things like this have been going on for a long time, this story could easily attract attention to what LADWP is doing - especially right now as they're asking for large rate increases. Seems like excellent material for an energetic investigative reporter.

Let's see what the County does about ignoring their building codes, or how the state enforces historic preservation laws. Other than a few fines, nothing big is likely to happen without a spotlight on this. But it's got the makings of a dramatic story with scenic visuals if someone takes it on.

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#23372 - 04/28/12 11:21 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: SierraNevada]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2247
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Sent to Marek at the Fresno Bee.

marekw@fresnobee.com
_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#23388 - 04/29/12 01:42 AM Re: LA wants to steal Mammoth Creek water [Re: wagga]
lynn-a-roo Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 627
Loc: OrangeCounty
Don't worry...if our State and Federal government keeps putting environmental restrictions on California businesses soon there won't be any where to work so even more Californians will leave the state to follow the businesses that are leaving the state and the LADWP will not need Mammoth Creek water and taxes will become even higher for the people who stay in California...the state which already pays some of the highest taxes in the nation. It takes money to run this state ...it takes people to do the work and it takes water to sustain all life...we have too many people in this state for reasons I don't even have to tell all the educated/intelligent Whitney Zone members. The problem is much larger than the Mammoth Creek Water.

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