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#23282 - 04/25/12 02:15 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: ]
CMC2 Offline


Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 160
Loc: CO
Sorry but this was pretty well covered with the troll a year or two ago. AND Joe and Gary please ignore it.

Don't need a GPS, compass or map to run around a track and I handled that OK for the most part as I quickly learned to adjust to my learning disability.

I'll let you go back to your sparring with Laura and I'll stay out of it.

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#23283 - 04/25/12 02:22 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: CMC2]
Burchey
Unregistered


Totally kidding, boss - I understand you were Olympic level. GPS not needed.

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#23290 - 04/25/12 05:51 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: George]
John Sims Offline


Registered: 04/20/12
Posts: 524
Loc: Sunnyvale, California
George, you said:
"Also, I'm not a phone geek. Does the iPhone GPS work without being connected to either WiFi or a phone network? I was told it doesn't, yet I've been sent very accurate position fixes via google mobile maps from a wifi-only iPhone 4. They are not the location of the wifi, but almost certainly of the phone."

The iPhone GPS works fine out of range of either or both WiFi and Cellular coverage. You cannot put the phone in "airplane mode" however, since that does disable the GPS. This does mean that your battery life will be a bit shorter, as the phone constantly searches for Cellular service. Nonetheless, with one of the apps that allows you to download maps, you do not need to be connected to see your location on the downloaded map.

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#23292 - 04/25/12 07:20 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: John Sims]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
Paper map still weighs less than the iPhone.

And Adam: "Be nice to Ernie." :mad:
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#23295 - 04/25/12 08:11 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: CMC2]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: CMC2
Sorry but this was pretty well covered with the troll a year or two ago. AND Joe and Gary please ignore it.


Ignore what? Ernie who? Don't know what you're talking about . . .

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#23301 - 04/26/12 06:36 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: Bulldog34]
Bob R Offline


Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: Ridgecrest, California
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
Ernie who?


A Google search will turn up lots of hits. A summary:

"...During the next few months, I learned the story of an outstanding athlete. Ernie Cunliffe established a number of distance-running records at Stanford. His school record in the 800 meters, set in 1960, wasn't bested until 2000. He once held the world record in both the indoor and outdoor 1,000-yard run. His outdoor record still stands, as Ernie humbly notes, "because no one runs yards anymore." He ran the 800 meters in the 1960 Olympics and was a manager on the 1980 team that fell victim to the U.S. boycott of the Moscow Games. At the time I contacted him, he was finishing up his fourth lap of Colorado's 55 peaks over 14,000 feet in elevation."

Add his 4:00.4 time for the mile in 1960, etc., etc.

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#23302 - 04/26/12 07:45 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: Bob R]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
That comment was tongue-in-cheek, Bob, in reference to Ernie's admonition to me above. I read it basically as "Joe & Gary, keep your lips zipped." The history there is that I "outed" Ernie on the Zone early last year as the outstanding world-class runner he was, and he appeared a bit embarrassed. Modest Ernie! Personally, I think folks knowing about Ernie's accomplishments is a good thing.

Anyway, cat's out of the bag now. And I believe that Ernie's 800 time at Stanford, set in the early 60s, is still the 2nd best time ever recorded there. When you consider how athletic records have been smashed to smithereens over the last 20 years, that is just incredible.

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#23303 - 04/26/12 07:59 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: Bulldog34]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
HUMOR: It's not just for breakfast anymore.

AAnnnnyywho, back to the topic at hand.

I tried a new app yesterday called "GPS Pal", from Columbia Sports. It's a free tracking program, and I wanted to see how it compared to my GPS.

Bottom line: the mileage and elevation measurements were spot on (heehee... I made a funny), but when I tried to find my location in areas without service on the phone, it was a no-go. I was actually surprised to see an actual track when I got back to the TOF (uploading now so I'll post it in a bit). Pretty much sucked the battery dry, though. Next time I'll go in with a full batt and see about how much power it uses. (I was only out for 1hr 40 min)



ANY equipment you use (map/compass, GPS, smartphone, crampons, axe, etc) is useless unless trained in its actual use. Seems like more and more people simply shift reliance to these "automatic" toys and forget to use the best machine we have available, right between our ears.


Edited by MooseTracks (04/26/12 08:03 AM)
Edit Reason: added pic
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#23304 - 04/26/12 08:10 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: Bulldog34]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
. . . many will just not put in the effort to learn the basic skills or carry a real map. They can get away with that on the Whitney main trail, but...


Amen. I once had a where-the-hell-am-I? discussion with a guy I ran across on-trail, and we were using his map for me to show him where we were standing and where he was going. He had his handy-dandy compass as well. What he didn't have was a clue what "declination" meant (this was in Washington state, where it means a helluva lot). I don't think he was ever completely convinced about the concept. Reading contour lines was not a particular strength of his either. By the time we parted I wondered why he even bothered carrying a map and compass - it was just so much dead weight in this case.

For Whitney in summer, though, it's follow the herd. Very straightforward trail, with only a small slabby section above Mirror Lake to potentially confuse people. I did this trail the first time solo, with raging AMS on the descent. I had a lot of concerns on my mind at the time, but following the trail wasn't one of them. This is a very difficult trail to go off track for any significant distance.



I had a similar conversation on a Whitney Trip. I was at the junction of the Lower Rock Creek Ranger Station and the PCT. There was a guy standing on the PCT with a handy dandy Tom Harrison Cartography map in his hand looking very confused. He asked me where is the PCT, I told him he was standing on it. He asked again, this time, with a really added. I then when to his map and showed him exactly where he was. To this day, I don't think he believed me.

For some reason, whenever I encounter those suffering geographic ambiguity, they all seem to be carrying the colorfully shaded Tom Harrison Cartography maps.

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#23307 - 04/26/12 08:50 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: Bulldog34]
CMC2 Offline


Registered: 11/04/09
Posts: 160
Loc: CO
Actually Gary I was referring to the old troll saga when you and Joe defended my honor. Since I pretty much knew that Burchey was joking I merely hoped that Joe and you would refrain from jumping in and championing my cause.

I guess in reading some of the positive comments I was a better runner than I would ever be with GPS and alot of the modern electronic toys that so many of you younger people know how to play with. I'll try and phone Bob R for SAR help if I get in trouble in the back country. Until then, back to my Harrison maps and compass as I continue my journey through life in the Mts, climbing and hiking.

And Laura is right on, back to the topic at hand. Don't want her angry with me as I may need some Medicare covered PT some day.

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#23308 - 04/26/12 09:20 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: MooseTracks]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
Quote:
HUMOR: It's not just for breakfast anymore. <insert eye roll>

Laughing myself to tears!!
Laura, you crack me up!
This thread has been both informative and entertaining.

Bob R - Nice to "hear" your voice.... smile

CaT
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If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

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#23309 - 04/26/12 09:28 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: John Sims]
George Offline
Woodsy Guy

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 202
Loc: California
John:

Thanks. So just so I'm clear (I'm still in the dumb phone stage -- I even own and often use a dial phone when the power goes out): the iPhone will accurately record your GPS position and, if there's a wifi (or cellular) connection, can send an accurate gps-enabled location (as opposed to one derived from cell tower location)?

I'm getting interested in this stuff because several of us GIS/SAR geeks are putting together a guide on how to obtain location information from a cell phone emergency call. A lot of rural areas don't have e911 and, even when they do, it's not clear the accuracy of origin of location information given to responders.

A guy in the UK has developed a web site where the lost/injured person is sent its URL in a text message. When it's clicked on, the location information is captured on the web site. Of course, this only works with newer smart phones (Phase II).

Edging back on topic, I just looked for a Garmin topo of the John Muir Trail and found this:

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/143/

I loaded one of their topo maps last night onto the SD card of my Garmin 60CSX and it's pretty easy to do. Pretty good maps.

And here's another geeky thought: a friend has an Android app that records cell signal strength as he travels. He then generates a coverage map of areas he travels in. This would seem especially useful for marginal areas such as Whitney and along the crest. Inyo and NPS often get calls for help which last all of 20 seconds before the battery dies. Narrowing down where a call can potentially have come from would be a useful data set to have. A good and useful crowd sourcing exercise.

g.
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#23310 - 04/26/12 09:37 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: George]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
Originally Posted By: George

Thanks. So just so I'm clear (I'm still in the dumb phone stage -- I even own and often use a dial phone when the power goes out


Neanderthal... wink

(PS: I have a non-power phone, although not rotary, for power outages, too...)

John, could you list the names of the apps you mentioned in your post? I'd like to play with those, too.

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#23315 - 04/26/12 10:31 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: George]
John Sims Offline


Registered: 04/20/12
Posts: 524
Loc: Sunnyvale, California
Hi George,
Yes, the iPhone is fully capable of recording your position without an outside connection (either wifi or cellular coverage). For instance, click on the following link:   http://my.viewranger.com/route/search#!3...s,United States

You should see my avatar near the center of the screen. Click on the avatar and you will have the option to click on the route.
    (Route link here: Old Rag Hike Mar 17, 2012 )
This will open a new tab where you can review the route, change maps (open street map, open cycle map, google, satellite, etc... The open cycle map shows elevations and trails, so I prefer it).

Much of this hike has no cell or wifi coverage what so ever, but with a map downloaded to the iPhone you do see your location on the map. This application then (once you have either cell or wifi connection) allows you to "sync" your device(s), so the track is uploaded to the ViewRanger web site (your account).

So, I'm sure you could send an accurate gps-enabled location to responders, but I have not done exactly that. This particular application is used in Europe by SAR teams (see web site for more information: http://www.viewranger.com/en-us/about-us/search-and-rescue), so it would seem a good candidate for what you want to do.

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#23317 - 04/26/12 11:25 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: MooseTracks]
John Sims Offline


Registered: 04/20/12
Posts: 524
Loc: Sunnyvale, California
Originally Posted By: MooseTracks
Originally Posted By: George

Thanks. So just so I'm clear (I'm still in the dumb phone stage -- I even own and often use a dial phone when the power goes out


Neanderthal... wink

(PS: I have a non-power phone, although not rotary, for power outages, too...)

John, could you list the names of the apps you mentioned in your post? I'd like to play with those, too.



Hi Laura,
I know of two apps that support this function:
ViewRanger (which I currently use)
MotionX-GPS (Which I have not used for a while)
I am sure there are more apps available, but keeping up with new apps would be a daunting task.
John


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#23320 - 04/26/12 12:30 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: John Sims]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
Thanks, John. I'll look those up, and give them a try.
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#23336 - 04/26/12 11:29 PM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: John Sims]
GandC Offline


Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 246
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: John Sims

The iPhone GPS works fine out of range of either or both WiFi and Cellular coverage. You cannot put the phone in "airplane mode" however, since that does disable the GPS. This does mean that your battery life will be a bit shorter, as the phone constantly searches for Cellular service. Nonetheless, with one of the apps that allows you to download maps, you do not need to be connected to see your location on the downloaded map.


You can get an external GPS unit for your iPhone and turn airplane mode on. The Bad Elf works great for an application like this, and only draws a small amount of power from the phone to work. There is also a blue tooth model that has its own battery, but works the same way.

I use a Bad Elf for supplemental GPS capabilities in the cockpit with my iPad, and this was a nice secondary surprise for usage with my iPhone.
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#23339 - 04/27/12 06:06 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: GandC]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
As cool as that technology is, it just seems to me that we are closer and closer to taking our offices into the backcountry.

Little piece of paper. Learn how to read the squiggly lines. Go.
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#23341 - 04/27/12 08:01 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: MooseTracks]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
The brain is an amazing GPS device.
Whenever you come to a split in the trail or to some other notable landmark, walk a few feet further, turn around, note what it will look like on the return leg (if you're not doing a one-way hike), plug into brain. Done. Also known as paying attention to your surroundings or self-reliance (opposite of gadget-reliance).

CaT
_________________________
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

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#23346 - 04/27/12 09:30 AM Re: Hiking GPS with Preloaded Trail Map [Re: MooseTracks]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: MooseTracks
As cool as that technology is, it just seems to me that we are closer and closer to taking our offices into the backcountry.


"Gimme a sec. I'll be on belay as soon as I finish this webinar . . . "

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