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Re: What is a wilderness experience?
Ken #25199 06/18/12 02:35 PM
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Ken: I am impressed that Steve is still discussing this with you. You should feel complimented. I usually just give up on people who make up stuff to argue with, rather than responding to what I am actually saying.

As for the careful consideration that quota determinations supposedly receive. Sure, we know that all kinds of things are supposed to be taken into consideration, all kinds of complex environmental and historical factors, to arrive a the very carefully considered permit quotas. And I am sure all the factors get looked at. But, come on: isn't it a just little coincidental that all that complex multivariate analysis of the Whitney Zone results in the precise, round numbers of exactly 60 overnight and 100 day-use permits? And is that consistent with say Happy Isles: 40 overnight and unlimited day use?


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Re: What is a wilderness experience?
saltydog #25220 06/19/12 12:44 PM
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BTW: if you are tromping through the LYV campsites in the wee hours, or any time for that matter, you are about 100 yards off the trail, and missed the JMT turnoff by a lot more than that.


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Re: What is a wilderness experience?
Ken #25238 06/19/12 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Originally Posted By: Steve C

...
Seems to be that every time somebody tries to make suggestions for "potential management actions that are available", others are quick to shoot them down, because they don't get it.


...
Except, the Agency managers DO care about such things, and have to give consideration to them. (I don't know the Yosemite managers, but I'd think they are similar to the FS managers I know)


Managers from both the Park Service (NPS) and the Forest Service (USFS) have legal requirements to comply with. They are not free to apply their or your definition of "wilderness experience". Both the Congress and the State of California are in the regulatory game. The requirements managers are subject to and their methods used in response are available to the public. For a beginning example for each:

NPS:
Role of Science in Sustainable Management
of Yosemite Wilderness
Jan W. van Wagtendonk
USDA Forest Service Proceedings RMRS-P-27. 2003
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_p027/rmrs_p027_225_230.pdf

USFS:
Cole, D. and T. Carlson. 2010.
Numerical visitor capacity: A guide to its use in wilderness.
United States Department of Agriculture, Forest Service,
Rocky Mountain Research Station
RMRS-­-GTR-­-247,
Ft.Collins,Colorado.
http://www.wilderness.net/toolboxes/docu...0Wilderness.pdf

There is a lot more information about what has been done and why. You have to decide whether you want to know what is going on and change whatever laws may conflict with your desires or if you want to keep reinventing what are already broken wheels under current regulations, practice, and experience and blaming managers for your lack of knowledge.

Dale B. Dalrymple

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
dbd #25261 06/20/12 07:29 PM
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I'm back a day and half early from my 80 miler on the Tahoe Rim Trail, due to the excellent construction of the trail system, ultralight gear, and wanting to get back to my family. I averaged 23 miles a day and witnessed a courteous mingling of mountain bikers, day hikers, trail runners and only a few backpackers mostly camped at popular sites. I had many hours of solitude hiking each morning - plenty for me. The problem with this trail is running back into some type of civilization about every 20 miles. In between those times, there is a lot of "wilderness experience" to be had with spectacular views. I was pleasantly surprised.

The TRT is unique with mostly non-designated wilderness, but it offers modern lessons in how to manage wild areas. The areas I went through were managed by a variety of agencies. The TRT Association, and others in this half of the trail - especially Nevada State Parks, have invested in facilities, signs, and information boards at each major trailhead, and a wilderness campground with a new water pump, bear boxes, tables, and Oh My God, toilets. The only litter I saw on the trail was a laminated fishing regulations sign (CA DFG) that fell off the tree it was nailed to. The take-away lesson I see is that people respect nice facilities that are maintained. If society is willing to invest in such things, people tend to respect it and are more likely to pick up after the losers who would ruin it. Time will tell if the maintenance investment will continue, but the concept is clear to me. Simple education is also a key factor and should not be downplayed. It means a lot more when it comes in the field than by being forced to sit through an office lecture or slideshow.

After reading the papers posted by Dale, one conclusion is consistent in each document: trailhead quotas are not a standalone solution and should only be used where necessary in conjunction with other management strategies. Other factors are equally or more important in determining the quality of a "wilderness experience."

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
SierraNevada #25280 06/21/12 10:32 AM
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It's nice you were able to get out of the wilderness and go. As you point out, you don't need wilderness to have a wilderness experience.

Dale B. Dalrymple

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
dbd #25344 06/22/12 03:00 PM
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I have been very frustrated with the permit system for quite a while now. I do a decent amount of climbing in the Eastern Sierra, but rarely bother with Mt. Whitney and especially not during the quota period. It has been impossible for me to dayhike Russell because in order to do so I would have to wait around the morning of the hike to wait for a permit. I know the NF well, stay on the established trail, and don't go near the zoo that is Whitney so why should I have to be included in the mess that is the Whitney Zone permit process. The same issues apply to my attempts to climb the East Face/Buttress on Whitney (regarding getting a permit for an under used route, although obviously contradicts my sentiment above for avoiding whitney in general).

Even more absurd is the process for getting a permit in other areas of the Sierra. We are heading up to North Pal this weekend which I am sure there will be no one up there, maybe one other party at most.I tried to use the wonderful recreation.gov site and it repeatedly froze and I was unable to get the permits. I called the wilderness permit office and was told I needed to call recreation.gov to book the permit and pay all kinds of absurd reservation and processing fees for my "free" permit then I would have to call back to the permit office to request it be put in the night drop box. Option 2 is that I have to go on Sat morning before we begin our climb, which is fine except that I will have to go through the entire "lottery" process to get a spot in line to get a permit for the trail which will be empty. I know from past experience to set aside an hour for this. It feels that all the process is extremely cumbersome. I am an experience climber and backpacker and frequent the are often. My preferred trips are leaving Thursday or Friday after work and passing through LP late at night, getting to the TH, and then attempting my climb. It is ridiculous to have to add an additional day onto a weekend trip just for the sake of walking into the permit office to be told for the 100th time to camp 100 feet from water and pack out my trash.

I don't understand why there is not a more simplified way to get a permit and why some of the quotas are so ridiculously low. We went out of South Lake last year to do the Palisades Traverse and managed to get the "last 2 permits" yet once we got more than a couple of miles from the trailhead, we never saw another person. I know it is not an easy balance to provide access while preserving the area, but it is starting to get absurd that I can't go climbing on "public" land between May and September or if I do it becomes an ordeal to secure a permit without planning my trip 6 months in advance. A lot of the climbs are deeper in the backcountry and require a significant amount of approach time and are far from the high-use areas, yet I am essentially restricted from getting there due to the time-constraints of the permit process and the often very-low quota for many trails.

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
ScottL #25354 06/23/12 07:53 AM
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Yep, you've got it right.

The question I've always had is whether the permit system actually reduces the numbers of hikers. Are there any statistics to prove or dis-prove that the quotas actually work? Perhaps Mt. Whitney is the only trail where it has any effect.

All the online system and desk ranger system does is waste tax-payers money, when it could be better spent hiring wilderness rangers. The computer system in use at the permit counters is very difficult for them to use, and adds to the waste of time and money.

True confessions: there are a few less-travelled trails where I do not get a permit, because I will probably be the only person there...and certainly no F.S. staff. (I'm sure someone on this forum will scream about this...LOL.)




Re: What is a wilderness experience?
SierraNevada #25373 06/24/12 01:54 PM
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Quote:
How could there be 800 "constructed" campsites in this area? What materials did they "construct" them of mostly above treeline without wood to build with or to burn and no campfires permitted. What could these "campsites" be other than rock windbreaks? No ropes dangling from trees. Something isn't adding up and I'm wondering what we're accomplishing with these tax dollars for moving rocks around.


I can't speak to that exact number, but I don't find it at all surprising. Once again, it depends on what you're willing to accept as far as wilderness experience goes. People love constructing stuff from rock. It's some sort of primal urge. So you come to a place like Guitar Lake where everyone wants to build a wall of rock to define their campsite. It looks, as one ranger commented, like Machu Pichu. Would you get more of a sense of an isolated, wilderness experience if those walls weren't there and so visible? I like to think so.

From the mid-1970s to the mid-90s, thousands (literally) of these types of developed sites were removed from the wilderness parks. They included fire pits and garbage in amongst the charcoal; nails in trees; boards between trees for shelves; stoves; camp chairs made out of stumps and boards; rock walls; tables (up to 4 feet high) made out of piled rocks and can dumps hidden amongst the willows and rocks.

A survey was just completed comparing both the number and size of campsites since that effort started in the 70s. There are significantly fewer campsites and those that still exist have a smaller "footprint" (less bare ground; fewer if any "improvements"; recovered vegetation).

Doing so -- and continuing to do so -- gives visitors a sense that it's a wild place and that few have been there before them. That's the idea when you boil all this stuff down. It's partially illusory, of course, but it's why there's trailhead limits, minimum impact regulations etc.

It's also worth noting that for individuals, wilderness experience is a moving target and changes with time and experience. The first few trips you don't notice a lot of these intrusions or people -- it's all great (one hopes...). But as you travel more (and that's not "you" personally -- kind of the universal 'you') that bar is often drastically reduced. People notice garbage; large groups traveling together; developed campsites etc.

So, yes, supporting "moving rocks around" using tax dollars seems like a pretty good effort to me (of course, I'm a beneficiary of those tax dollars but I like to think the wilderness public is as well).

George

PS: Moose. The Lamarck trail from the east side was constructed (I think) by Art Schober, a packer who was trying to establish a trail just before it became a park in 1940. He assumed it if was already there and "established" he could bring people in that way. Didn't really work but a good try. There's even the remnant of a couple of switchbacks on the park side but no farther.


None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: What is a wilderness experience?
George #25389 06/25/12 01:24 AM
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There are curious and interesting nuggets in the posts here and in the references/links given above. One is in the idea that numbers of people must be kept to some very low number in order to maintain wilderness.

I think most of this idea is rooted in the phrase of the Wilderness Act of 1964, "has outstanding opportunities for solitude". I would like to point out that "outstanding opportunities" by no means requires wilderness managers to ensure most people will experience solitude most of the time while hiking on a man-made trail.

What I read in that phrase is this: The wilderness should have ample space where people can go to find solitude. There is a big difference between hiking on a trail IN solitude, and hiking into a wilderness area and, if one so chooses, being able to wander off and be completely alone.

I'd like to point out that, even on the trail to Half Dome, I could take anyone able to walk off trail, and show them complete and utter solitude, in about ten minutes. And those "outstanding opportunities for solitude" existed before any quotas were applied to Half Dome. I really hate to use the Half Dome trail as the example, though, because it is such an exception to nearly all the other trails in the Sierra, where visitation and use are a miniscule fraction of the Half Dome numbers.

In the Yosemite N.P. paper linked by dbd, "Role of Science in Sustainable Management
of Yosemite Wilderness
", their scientific research "found that visitors to Vernal Falls had an absolute tolerance for four times as many people in the viewscape as their stated preference"

There are a few like Bee's "seasoned back-country curmudgeon, encountering one person in seven days may deem the whole experience ruined by a 'population explosion' in north quad of Yosemite".

But there are far more of the other type, found in Yosemite's Vernal Falls study, and those found by the Inyo Rangers noted by Bob R, where campers at Iceberg Lake in the Whitney Zone, preferred camp sites close to each other, and abandoned dispersed sites provided by the rangers.

In the LAC paper (Limits of Acceptable Change) cited by Ken, Stephen McCool makes the point that wilderness managers jumped at using "carrying capacity as a paradigm or model of visitor management". Continuing, McCool wrote: "Such managers had a strong, biologically based educational background, and generally went into these professions to avoid working with people, rather than being attracted to the idea of managing recreational opportunities for the benefits to people they produce. Therefore, it was a relatively easy conceptual leap to visualizing the management problems induced by the hordes of visitors coming to such areas as a function of the landscape's carrying capacity being exceeded."

The point I would like to make is that very small trail quotas have been applied due to a misinterpretation of that often quoted phrase in the Wilderness Act of 1964, and that rather than providing "outstanding opportunities for solitude" to a reasonable number of people, the wilderness gatekeepers are actually preventing any opportunities for any wilderness experience at all to far too many people.

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
Steve C #25392 06/25/12 07:03 AM
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Steve, I'm not sure why you continue to deliberately misinterpret things, then trot them out as examples of your position? For example:

Quote:
In the LAC paper (Limits of Acceptable Change) cited by Ken, Stephen McCool makes the point that wilderness managers jumped at using "carrying capacity as a paradigm or model of visitor management". Continuing, McCool wrote: "Such managers had a strong, biologically based educational background, and generally went into these professions to avoid working with people, rather than being attracted to the idea of managing recreational opportunities for the benefits to people they produce. Therefore, it was a relatively easy conceptual leap to visualizing the management problems induced by the hordes of visitors coming to such areas as a function of the landscape's carrying capacity being exceeded."


You tout this as an example of why things are wrong. But you fail to mention that what you are citing is the ABANDONED system, that is NO LONGER USED, and hasn't for some time.

Quote:
I think most of this idea is rooted in the phrase of the Wilderness Act of 1964, "has outstanding opportunities for solitude". I would like to point out that "outstanding opportunities" by no means requires wilderness managers to ensure most people will experience solitude most of the time while hiking on a man-made trail.


Here is the crux, eh?

You are asserting that the folks who enjoy crowds of people should predominate over those who don't....when walking the trails in wilderness. You would require those who would like to experience solitude, to have to go off-trail, on cross-country jaunts. You have staked out the trails for one group of users, those like you.

By your definition, areas that are not in wilderness would be the same experience, because you can find areas in which you can be by yourself. Yosemite Valley would be so defined. Lost Lake Park in Fresno would be so defined.

Inasmuch as 95% of Sierra wilderness travellers go by way of trails (my guess), you would deprive the vast, vast majority of users of one of the defining traits of a wilderness.

No different than those who want to cut the trees, dam the waters, mine the minerals, build airstrips, build buildings.....all centered around what THEY want, not what is required by law. You are on the same side as those who claim that bicycles should be allowed in wilderness. Now THAT would be fun on HD!

The reality is, a whole lot of people want to hike the same exact few trails, loving it to death. You appear to want to increase the pressure on those trails. 10,000 is not enough on Whitney? 20,000? 30,000? While few climb Williamson, White, Langley, in comparison. Olancha, Muah, even Trail Peak.

People complain about permits and quotas? How about going over Trail Pass. There is NO QUOTA. How about hiking in the South Sierra Wilderness. There are NO QUOTA. How about the Domeland Wilderness. PERMITS NOT REQUIRED. Golden Trout Wilderness, except for two trailheads, NO QUOTAS.

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
George #25393 06/25/12 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: George
From the mid-1970s to the mid-90s, thousands (literally) of these types of developed sites were removed from the wilderness parks. They included fire pits and garbage in amongst the charcoal; nails in trees; boards between trees for shelves; stoves; camp chairs made out of stumps and boards; rock walls; tables (up to 4 feet high) made out of piled rocks and can dumps hidden amongst the willows and rocks.

I'm in favor of minimizing fire rings and makeshift camp furniture and of course hauling out cans and trash. The example presented by Ken was "800 campsites in the Humphrey's basin area." Unless someone is packing lumber into this moonscape, there isn't much to work with other than rocks. And I believe campfires are not allowed at that elevation even if one could find wood. As for Machu Pichu sites, some rock moving might be in order in remote places, but do we need to create an illusion that one is the first ever to see Guitar Lake or Trail Camp?

Just curious if anyone knows, what are the use numbers for Humphrey's Basin comparing visitors on horseback vs backpackers? Do we even know what percentage are backpackers camping in this area? Humphrey's basin doesn't seem like a fair example to support low trailhead quotas for backpackers.

Re: What is a wilderness experience?
Ken #25394 06/25/12 07:46 AM
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Ken,
I think the discussion would be more civil if you stuck to what you think, observe, and believe, rather than claiming what others think based on written words. You have lots of great experience to draw on without quoting others, in or out of context. Words, by themselves, make up only a small fraction of actual communication. Reading between the lines can make things even more confused.

This has been a very interesting thread, but I'm not exactly sure what anyone's position is for every situation in the Wilderness. I'm pretty sure Steve is not in favor of mountain bikes flying down the Half Dome cables.

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