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Re: I just don't get it...
Steve C #26078 07/19/12 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
I got an interesting opinion from a friend recently. He said by providing so much information for people, it removes the sense of discovery and pioneering. By providing so much for them here, their trip becomes less of an adventure..... Life for pioneers was (and still is) sometimes unlucky.


My first thought...the Donner party

Re: I just don't get it...
wazzu #26083 07/19/12 01:28 PM
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I had the same comment from my son about the HST trip we took last year. Always a balance, not a bright line, between giving away the specific secrets of a particular route and general wisdom that applies to any trip. He was just as glad that I knew what to do about mild heat exhaustion as he was that I didn't make him read the whole trail guide.

The mistakes of the AMS saga of last week are not a tough call: all could have been prevented without sacrifice to Maxwells adventure and discovery. Not just AMS: knowing the basics of mt lion encounters would probably have enhanced that piece of it. You don't have to know exactly where the cat is, but you should have an idea of where one may be.

And you don't have to read every trip report and trail condition posting: you can preserve the specific adventure of a new place for yourself without being ignorant of the things that will apply wherever you go.


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Re: I just don't get it...
tdtz #26093 07/19/12 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: tdtz
It could be something as simple as a chalkboard that says
Hospitalizations due to AMS, 2012 YTD - 42
Deaths due to AMS, 2012 YTD - 2


Can somebody tell me where they have the info in Death Valley about the seriousness of hiking, running, biking across DV? I'm not sure if I saw the images when I was about to run a marathon in DV. Though it was years ago, I remember pictures of people who had died in DV from several things, but especially heat, dehydration, etc. If I remember correctly, there were several images. I gotta tell you, I took those images seriously as they scared the living crap outta me!
I know it sounds morbid, but those images really helped me in making any decisions about any types of workouts in DV.


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Re: I just don't get it...
quillansculpture #26095 07/20/12 07:34 AM
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In DV, there is a big sign right by the parking lot in the Dunes area that says in big bold RED letters.....HEAT KILLS....and then there is a bunch of information on how to behave and take care of yourself in the heat.

Re: I just don't get it...
Dave #26096 07/20/12 07:59 AM
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Balance of information is indeed key, and the challenges of presenting such information, in an efficient manner, are huge.

I agree there is TMI out there: I run into it often (Ken, you might probably say the same) with patients who have researched their diagnosis -- or try to diagnose themselves -- with the assistance of Wikipedia, medical websites, etc. On the other hand, having so much information available leads to apathy and overload. The classic, "well, I don't know what the hell I'm doing but there will be plenty of people around and they'll know what to do."

I think Tom's story from last weekend illustrated the above point, but also that relying on others to help you may also be limited. I am all for adventure and discovery, but even those putting up FA's around the world aren't walking blindly into their new territories.

Another challenge faced is trying to get the information across without sounding fatalistic or playing to the lowest common denominator. Traveling the front country of Yosemite drives me absolutely bonkers in this respect. At the top of the road for the Mariposa Grove of Sequoias, for example, the sign contains a warning:


I know my view is more than a bit skewed (fairly rigorous hike???), but to read this makes me just shake my head a bit. I guess I need to hike with little kids or something.

As for being my brother's keeper: well... Let's just say there are a myriad of reasons you won't find me in the WZ very often anymore.

99% of people survive their stupidity, but I think the number of people who learn from their stupidity is vastly smaller.


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Re: I just don't get it...
MooseTracks #26097 07/20/12 09:12 AM
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Quote:
99% of people survive their stupidity, but I think the number of people who learn from their stupidity is vastly smaller.


Laura, your quote above immediately brought to mind what Bob R has mentioned to me about those that are rescued: There is often no thanks expressed, and virtually never a donation. (not that either is expected)....but that is in MARKED distinction to families of body recoveries, who are very thankful, and are the source of most contributions. Odd psychology at work, here.

You're right, Laura, my experience is the same with patients, some come in quoting the internet, some not. I prefer the ones that are engaged enough to be looking, they are often like a sponge wanting to soak up info. They're the ones that will actually DO the exercises.... smile


Re: I just don't get it...
Dave #26098 07/20/12 09:26 AM
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I think that the whole thing involving death statistics is problematic.

The problem is, that those people who are already at the bottom of the hill, about to hike up, are committed in their minds.

At that point, it is going to be very difficult to divert them from the path, or from what they are doing, and every step up the trail their momentum becomes stronger.

I think it is remarkable that someone would turn around in the vicinity of the needles, no matter what the time, weather, or how they are feeling.

There is a combination of physical exhaustion, combined with hypoxia (EVEN if acclimatized), that numbs rational thinking.

I will say that several year back, when I and my colleagues were stationed at the trailhead for two weeks interviewing attemptees, we ended giving a LOT of advice to people. I distinctly remember one middle aged guy who was going on a multi-day attempt the next day, and was on Diamox. He was having symptoms making him miserable, that were clearly from taking too high a dose. I suggested he cut back, which he did. The next day, I saw him before he left, and his symptoms had resolved, and I interviewed him 3 days later, having summitted happily.

So maybe the lesson of that short story is that a person stationed at the trailhead could do a lot of good? Sure is an intensive use of resources, though.

Especially when one considers that a better expert in almost all ways resides 100 yards away, in the store, and will graciously answer any question.

Re: I just don't get it...
MooseTracks #26099 07/20/12 09:30 AM
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Interesting points Laura. It could be said there is no such thing as too much information. People digest information their own way. Maybe misinformation causes indigestion. Not trying to be flippant.

As for the grove hike, long time ago chasing down little ones climbing every boulder. Don't remember the sign, the adults were the ones trying to keep up.

Re: I just don't get it...
James #26182 07/25/12 06:37 AM
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Hawaiian style. Another hand written sign had names and cities of recent victims. It seems effective to me, but then again, the tally keeps growing.


Re: I just don't get it...
SierraNevada #26284 07/27/12 08:02 PM
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Forgive my ignorance, but what happened "this past weekend" (7/15/16?) that was being referenced?

Re: I just don't get it...
nyker #26287 07/27/12 08:30 PM
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I see some prettuy stupid things in the mountains also, including folks on Whitney in the past who had no idea any sort of permit was required.

Regarding the use of signage, here are the signs at the Maroon Bells in Colorado: Do they work? Perhaps, but every year, these difficult, unforgiving mountains still claim lives.

As discussed already, it possibly could help to have as a requirement for a permit, a short orientation by a Ranger, etc going over some of the inherent risks of climb, AMS, etc. Certainly can't hurt.




Re: I just don't get it...
nyker #26288 07/27/12 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: nyker
Forgive my ignorance, but what happened "this past weekend" (7/15/16?) that was being referenced?


See post #25950:
http://www.whitneyzone.com/wz/ubbthreads.php/topics/25807/1

Re: I just don't get it...
Anonymous1 #26289 07/27/12 09:09 PM
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Thanks 2600fromatari

Just read all the details.

Holy cow... td...what a trip!

Glad that boy started getting better and you were able to help get him down.

I suppose the vomiting could have been from exertion and not purely the altitude, but either way, the father should have recognized *something* was wrong...and the altitude certainly wouldn't help that situation.

Wow, a mountain lion with a kill on/near the trail.. will make me rethink my solo attempts...

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