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Packing Heat.
#2518 02/25/10 03:04 PM
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wagga Offline OP
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Busy (and heated) threads at some other boards about new laws.

3 Law-enforcement officers shot at Minkler, just a few miles from Sequoia/Kings Canyon.

This is probably a better forum for this, as we rarely resort to name-calling.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Packing Heat.
wagga #2519 02/25/10 03:36 PM
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Agreed, wagga.

What gets me is you hear reports of people hurting/killing themselves while cleaning their weapon or by not knowing the gun is loaded.

Hello? Why would anyone clean a loaded weapon? Don't you know to check the chamber?

Then there was the Los Banos incident where a dog shot its owner because the owner laid down a LOADED shotgun on the ground with the SAFETY OFF and the dog's paws engaged the trigger. BAM! The man suffered wounds by #2 shot. Luckily he was not killed. Embarrassed, but not killed.

Yeah, I can go on. Know this, I pack heat, but I don't go showing off. I have packed it in Yosemite. I have never packed it on the MWT.

I have drawn my weapon once on my OWN property. Trespassing perp. Needless to say the Madera Sheriff's office was happy the perp was caught. I had to clean up the "mess" because the dude defecated in his britches and left some fecal matter in my carport. Guess he wasn't wearing underwear.

I am off my dais now.


Journey well...
Re: Packing Heat.
+ @ti2d #2520 02/25/10 04:40 PM
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wagga Offline OP
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Sheriff's office report is that the SO detective has died, also unsubstantiated report that another officer has died.

Update: As of 5pm. (PT) the officer is on life support.

The names (& photos) of the LE officers are freely reported on local TV, but the name of the alleged perpetrator is protected.

Last edited by wagga; 02/25/10 06:16 PM.

Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Packing Heat.
wagga #2521 02/25/10 05:58 PM
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I honestly hate the debate about guns in America, personally I think it's great the law restores that right back to the states where it should be in the first place and I support repealing almost ALL gun control laws.

All this pointless debate on what will change when almost nothing will, you might once in awhile see someone doing open carry which is legal in California but how often do you see that anyway?

Re: Packing Heat.
wagga #2523 02/25/10 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
This is probably a better forum for this, as we rarely resort to name-calling.

I'm calling you "wagga." smile

Re: Packing Heat.
RoguePhotonic #2528 02/25/10 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I honestly hate the debate about guns in America, personally I think it's great the law restores that right back to the states where it should be in the first place and I support repealing almost ALL gun control laws.

All this pointless debate on what will change when almost nothing will, you might once in awhile see someone doing open carry which is legal in California but how often do you see that anyway?


RoguePhotonic, I don't like the debating either.

I don't like reading news of law enforcement getting shot or killed, I don't like reading news of people opening fire in high schools or places of employ. It sickens me. My heart goes out to the victims of these horrific events. Seems too commonplace now. You see it or hear it on the news day after day after day.

Know this all, I have my weapons of choice and my ammunition to go with them and my permits to carry them concealed. I am a law abiding American.

Don't tread on me. Tread? Then, you're _______. Leave me be.

End of comments.


Journey well...
Re: Packing Heat.
wagga #2533 02/26/10 12:24 AM
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Quote:
I don't like reading news of law enforcement getting shot or killed, I don't like reading news of people opening fire in high schools or places of employ


Events such as these have absolutely nothing to do with guns though, the real tragedy rests with our complex societal interactions and oppressions that push individuals to the breaking point, this whole subject risks to much digression and discussion that is a bit off topic though.

I just get worked up with gun topics because they are so important for the big picture and I feel people that are so anti gun are a bit out of touch with the reality in our world, quoting Thomas Jefferson sums it up well enough "The most important reason for the people to maintain the right to bear arms is as a last resort to defend themselves against tyranny from government"

200 million people died from governments in the 20th century alone and people really are willing to surrender their final life line to governments?

Yet again sorry to digress but it's not only an important point it's the most important point.

~quote "no one is more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free"

Re: Packing Heat.
+ @ti2d #2537 02/26/10 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: + @ti2d
What gets me is you hear reports of people hurting/killing themselves while cleaning their weapon or by not knowing the gun is loaded.

Hello? Why would anyone clean a loaded weapon? Don't you know to check the chamber?


That one has always mystified me as well. I've tried countless times to visualize how you begin the cleaning process without emptying the weapon first. Or for that matter, why a round would even be in the chamber at any point other than high-alert time. Seems that most of these incidents are either semi-auto pistols or hunting rifles, and those are the two categories that common sense dictates should never have a round in the chamber unless use is imminent. Even some police and military groups insist on a clear handgun chamber when not in certain circumstances.

It just baffles me that people can be so stoopid with a firearm. In many cases it's probably the same Einsteins who text while driving or smoke when pumping gas.

Re: Packing Heat.
Bulldog34 #2538 02/26/10 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
It just baffles me that people can be so stoopid with a firearm. In many cases it's probably the same Einsteins who text while driving or smoke when pumping gas.

We had a neighbor once who was cleaning his motorcycle in his living room. He was smoking when the gasoline started to spill from his full tank. We were lucky. Only his house burned to the ground. I don't know if he owned a gun but, if he did, I would guess that when he cleaned it...

Re: Packing Heat.
AlanK #2539 02/26/10 09:18 AM
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wagga Offline OP
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So, did he qualify for a Darwin award?


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Packing Heat.
wagga #2540 02/26/10 09:57 AM
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I've come to firmly believe that modern societal comforts - with a bit of help from legislation and the courts - have doomed the human natural selection process.

The guy cleaning his motorcycle in his living room - c'mon! Even without the spilled gas and the burning butt, this guy would have been "naturally selected" out of everyone else's way a hundred years ago. Alan, any chance he (1)didn't have homeowner's insurance, or (2) tried to litigate it into being someone else's fault?

Re: Packing Heat.
Bulldog34 #2542 02/26/10 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
So, did he qualify for a Darwin award?

Disqualified for award because he made it out alive.

Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
I've come to firmly believe that modern societal comforts - with a bit of help from legislation and the courts - have doomed the human natural selection process.

We certainly interfere with it!

Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
The guy cleaning his motorcycle in his living room - c'mon! Even without the spilled gas and the burning butt, this guy would have been "naturally selected" out of everyone else's way a hundred years ago. Alan, any chance he (1)didn't have homeowner's insurance, or (2) tried to litigate it into being someone else's fault?

The incident happened in 1963. I was all excited to come home to see fire trucks on our street, but my dad's worried manner clued me in to the seriousness of what was going on. I was sure glad we lived less than a mile from the local FD.

I believe that the guy was renting the house. Guys like that are one reason I am not a landlord.

Re: Packing Heat.
AlanK #2570 02/28/10 12:00 AM
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Just HAD to respond...
On that other board, Mike Condron wrote:
> So Mr **** ***, how old are you? About 25? You have that 25 year old attitude. Not very chivalrous are you. Screw the feelings of those people around you as long as you get your way.

Don't give him that much credit. I think he's more like... 17?

And I appreciate Alan K's bringing wilderness focus back to the debate:
> I think that they lose their focus over finding things like bags of Doritos.

Re: Packing Heat.
Steve C #2572 02/28/10 12:11 AM
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There has been trouble before with that particular poster -- Doug deleted his posts.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Packing Heat.
Bee #2576 02/28/10 09:03 AM
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That thread has a fair amount of thoughtful, and thought-provoking, material. Along with some apparent attempts to drag it down. I hope that Doug does not kill the whole thread.

Steve -- Yes, wilderness focus should not be lost. Setting aside discussion of guns for a moment, if we could keep Doritos out of parked cars at Whitney Portal, the bears would have to go back to their long-forgotten natural diet. I'm not sure there's any hope for the summit marmots, though. There will always be enough crumbs, plus the occasional pack left unguarded, to keep them fat.

Re: Packing Heat.
AlanK #2578 02/28/10 10:24 AM
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I agree Alan - it's an important topic and very relevant to the board. On a subject like handguns the thread will stray a little more than normal - like you and I with the whole firearms statistics thing. It can't avoid morphing into a larger arena as each person tries to make their point. It doesn't have to be a bloodbath, though. Diversity of opinion is supposed to be a good thing, and if some folks would grow up and listen as much as they opine, a thoughtful discussion can be had. No one is ever going to "win" this debate - the extremists on both sides are too polarized - but it's really counter-productive to get inextricably cornered into an inflexible position just because you can't control your temper.

I'd happily debate/discuss any topic with the likes of yourself and Icystair any day. Like you said, we really aren't that far apart even though we're not exactly on the same page. I understand and respect your thoughts, and I think you reciprocate. We could probably spend hours debating in a bar from opposite perspectives on a given matter, and part agreeing to happily do it again soon. Mike and Fuji, though - neither was inclined to take the high ground so they're both equally at fault in my opinion. The board should sentence them to climb Whitney together. An overnighter at that - with just one tent.

Re: Packing Heat.
Bulldog34 #2579 02/28/10 10:54 AM
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I agree with you both. I'll admit that I was baiting Fuji Guy. Read this thread http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,22983 please if you already haven't. Fuji Guy, in my opinion, is deserving of all the consideration, and deference he is willing to give others which seems to be none. I'm up to my eyeballs with the attitude of guys like him that think just because they can, they will, regardless of how uncomfortable they make people around them feel, no matter how much they would disrupt an otherwise tranquil setting. Imagine a few guys with that attitude at their campsite at the portal after a few beers with a loaded firearm on their hip. Wearing a loaded firearm in your own campsite is legal.

Now for me, I am in favor of removing most all gun controls, "shall issue concealed permits" wording, firearm ownership and training, people carrying concealed. What I'm radically opposed to is the argument that "I must be armed while in my campsite on the Yosemite Valley floor to protect myself from bears, rapists, muggers, pot farmers, criminals, etc. and I don't care if it bothers the other visitors that are camped around me because I am exercising my constitutional rights and nobody is going to stop me." Mr. Fuji Guy is one of these.

Last edited by Mike Condron; 02/28/10 10:57 AM.

Mike
Re: Packing Heat.
Mike Condron #2580 02/28/10 11:53 AM
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Mike, I hear you and I agree completely that Fuji was pushing the envelope too far. I'm all in favor of keeping our NPs as serene as humanly possible - after all, visiting these parks around the country is my personal passion. My experience with guys like Fuji is that there is no counter-argument that they'll listen to. It always breaks down in to a shouting match, which is really what they seem to want. Personally, when I get a whiff of that kind of attitude, I just ignore them - which is the worst possible frustration for them.

I was just concerned that the topic - which is really of importance to all of us who spend time on federal lands - was spiraling out of control and discouraging others from posting their opinions. And possibly tempting Doug to shut it down, which I always hate seeing.

I realize I did a lot of posting on that thread, but most of it was replying to comments/questions directed to me after my first couple of responses. I really don't have a dog in this hunt either, since I'll never carry one of my firearms into a park or on a trail. My whole purpose in jumping in was to point out that the alarmed, wild-west, slapping-leather concerns of the locals could be moderated if you just took a look outside your own state where handguns are the norm.

If there's going to be an armed yahoo-related problem with this law, look for it in Great Smokey Mountain National Park first, not Yosemite. The Smokies are so far and away the most visited national park in the country, it's beyond the point of comparison. It's also in the heart of Second Amendment territory. I can assure you, law or not, a great many visitors to the Smokies have always been armed. Aside from the different mindset (and permissive local laws) about guns, the bears are not nice there and have been known to attack people - especially children.

I live just a 3-hour drive from the Smokies, and hike there fairly regularly. To my knowledge, the preponderance of firearms in the area around the park (and in it, illegally up to this point) has not resulted in anything like the fears and concerns that are being expressed by Californians regarding open-carry in Yosemite. My point was just to ask why anyone expects Yosemite to be different - and I was not being tongue-in-cheek about it. Maybe there's an x-factor at play locally that I'm not aware of that would result in different behavior - but I guarantee you we have plenty of FujiGuys in our backyard as well. Oh, do we!


Re: Packing Heat.
Bulldog34 #2581 02/28/10 12:26 PM
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Doggie, I answered your call for a response on the WPSMB smile

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/...age=0#Post73510


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Packing Heat.
Bee #2582 02/28/10 12:58 PM
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Saw it Bee - I've read it 3 times. Great expression of your thoughts, and just the right amount of humor! It's a particularly sticky wicket for women. I've sounded my wife out about it, and she has mixed feelings as well (personally, she refuses to even handle a firearm). The strike zone you refer to is all too real, as is the statistical probability of a woman being attacked by an intimate as oppossed to a stranger on the trail.

My focus on this issue and how it affects women burns pretty deep. Aside from my wife and daughter, who won't hike without me, Meredith Emerson's murder struck a chord in me that has resonated for two years now. She was young enough to be my daughter (or I'm old enough to technically be her dad, as my wife would say), and she should still be out there with her dog enjoying the beauty of the Blue Ridge mountains. There are a lot of what-ifs that regularly crop up in my mind about this tragedy (as well as Hilton's other 3 victims, may he roast in Dante's Inferno for eternity). Logically, I know that an open sidearm might not have deterred him once he was in that strike zone - the trail she was abducted on is one I've hiked many, many times, and there is no way two oncoming hikers can avoid being in close range to each other. Emotionally, though, I desperately want her to have pulled a Beretta or Glock on his cowardly ass and dispatched his black-hearted soul off to the toasty halls of hell.

Thanks for your thoughts. They are always educational.

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