Mt Whitney Zone Forums The Chat Room Packing Heat.

Moosetrogen does seem to have a testosterone-neutralizing effect.

CaT

   

If Laura could bottle it, she'd be rich!

You all with your leg straps. Get a real gun... I'll be sure to throw one of these on the pack this summer:

[video:myspace]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLKQHmTa6C0[/video]

Like I said Laura, a few armed ladies on the trail will almost always tame the cowboy mentality. With that freakin' thing, you could tame the entire Sierra. Oh, I forgot - you pretty much already have.

Dollars to doughnuts, some on the board are watching that clip and sayin', "I GOT to get me one'a these things!"

I'm sure Gary has one on backorder...

And it's not Laura... It's Lara...

Got it - Lara. Give me a few minutes - I'll come up with something snappy to morph from Tomb Raider.

Actually, I think it would make a great hood ornament for DUG's truck.

I'm not sure if your saying you fail to see the point of open carry in all places we might visit or just in the backcountry, honestly it seems a bit asinine to say that about all things but as for the back country including what George says I hardly see any reason to, I certainly would never carry a gun into the backcountry on any typical hike, I don't have any fear out there and I could care less if the remote chance of someone or more likely something attacking me, but I also don't write off those dangers and the fear that others feel about them, in life people do all sorts of things to "feel" safe and carrying a gun is no different, lets take terrorism for an example, such massive fear over this, people are willing to go to all sorts of lengths to "feel" safe but if you look at the statistics and I don't just mean your odds of being attacked but how many people actually die from terrorism every single year in the whole world, it's about 1000 on average, it's a statistical fact that more people die from being struck by lightning, choking on peanuts, drowning in swimming pools, hitting deer on the road etc etc etc , my point is I don't see anyone wanting to strip the liberties away from people over what can easily be considered irrational fear, the only true relevant reason to make something like carrying a gun in the back country illegal is if accident situations become ridiculously common and the collateral damage is just too great and I certainly don't see this as a problem at the moment.



You misunderstand what I meant, I was only making a point that most people that open carry are extremely responsible and caring people that would be useful in an emergency, I say that because I know that most people have a very different view on who these types of people are, now what sort of people you like or respect or think anything of that's all your own business. =P



Seems that you have met the wrong type of people, we all generalize too much amongst groups of people but how many do we really get to know? i'm sure there is plenty of people just as you describe but from what I have seen it's not the majority.



Was it one of these boards where I read a mans story of running into a mountain lion on the trail with it only about 20 feet from him and despite all his efforts to scare it the thing had no fear so he had a stand off with it for 30 minutes before it left, that's a damn I wish I had a gun scenario. lol



I think your assumption and scenario are a bit far fetched, I agree that open carry makes a statement but I feel it makes the statement of "if I am violently attacked I am willing to defend myself" and nothing more, I used to never leave the house without a boot knife, 10% self defense use 90% useful tool and you would be surprised how useful always have a knife on you is, I used it all the time but I also got strange looks, even fearful looks, one fork lift driver at a supply yard as I had a knife on each boot said "your looking like a dangerous man right now" and his statement was not in a comical manor, I just feel sorry that people have such apprehension over defensive items.

I also have to argue that the need to open carry is from not being able to concealed carry, in california it's almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit, I talked to one guy that could not get one but just concealed carry anyway and he would tell cops that he concealed carried illegally because of just what you all have been saying that people get nervous and it causes problems and he didn't want any of that and also did not want to cause more problems for the police, the down side is here is a man that respects the law and others yet has to resort to being a criminal in a sense because of outrageous restrictions.

With the Starbucks thing I have to say it surprises me that Starbucks is holding that position and I think it's great, I respect that a business has the right to set restrictions such as the no shirt thing but I really look down hard on restrictions that are anti-constitutional.

Bobpickering's story is a complicated matter, it's unfortunate that they didn't feel more concerned about others safety but when it comes to the matter of who can do what where that is far more complicated, it's your typical issue amongst people when hobbies collide, everyone wants to have their fun.

Back on the idea of people getting angry I think your forgetting the fact that your talking about stripping rights and comforts for some from people, i'm sure if your safety nets or hobbies or what you feel is an essential liberty was being threatened you might become very angry also, especially if it's based on what you personally would regard as irrational fear, logic or general reasoning.

I have to laugh at the testosterone element in this sort of topic, I can't deny it exists in many but not in me, I have no ego what so ever, i've never understood ones need for being better than another.

I don't remember the source but I like the quote in regards to guns "would it make you feel better if they were pushed out a window!"

Why do you guys keep evading the question about carry open on Yosemite Valley floor an in the car camping campgrounds. What is the possible reason for doing so other than to flaunt.

I have read and re-read this thread a couple of times now. I try to avoid "polictical" discussions because they usually deteriorate into pissing contests and flame wars... however this one seems to be maintaining a very nice level of civility... so I'm going to chime my two cents worth in.

I come from a very long line of gun savvy women. I learned at an early age to handle a gun from my mother, who learned from her father, who learned from HIS mother... yadayadayada... my daughter shot her first gun at the age of about 5. I have NEVER lived in a house that didn't contain a firearm or ten. My significant other is in law enforcement, my sister and her fiance are MP's... some of my best friends are in the military. I am surrounded on a daily basis at work by people carrying loaded weapons. Some of my fondest childhood memories are of helping my Grandfather with his reloading equipment.. and of watching him refurbish antique rifles... and then going out to the desert (to designated shooting areas) to make use of those rifles and ammo we'd loaded. And DANG does brass get hot laying in the sand!!! I was also raised in the outdoors. As a child almost every vacation was spent at some national park or another in the Southwest US... or in some county or regional park camping. I can remember exactly 1 vacation where we had a firearm with us... and it stayed locked in the truck the entire time we were on the road. But I digress...


I have NEVER run into an issue where I wished I had a gun with me while camping, hiking or backpacking... and I live in San Diego and do most of my playing here as well. I KNOW that there are area's in my part of the state that due to "border" traffic, would be dangerous to hike in. So I don't go to those areas... I also know that if a wild animal is going to attack me, there's about a 99% probability I am NOT going to see it before I feel it's teeth or claws sinking into my flesh. In the instance of an animal attack, your chances of getting a weapon drawn in time to STOP the attack are unlikely. That is even considering the fact that you probably aren't going to be carrying a weapon with enough force to actually stop a charging animal instead of just pissing it off or injuring it (which would probably just piss it off more). You are more likely to avoid becoming animal prey by following the "rules" when you're in the wilderness. You know the ones... make noise, be aware, stay in groups...

I, too, remember following the stories of the poor souls like Meredith who were killed in parks... the older couple that the same guy who hurt Meredith killed... the Mother and daughter and Friend in Yosemite... and unfolding even now as we debate this the poor 17 year old who went running at Lake Hodges in Rancho Bernardo (San Diego) after school and Thursday and never came home. The deviant who is "suspected" to have hurt her has been arrested now... NONE of which were acts perpetrated by gun toting villians (to the best of my knowledge). All of which occured in fairly close proximity to the "fore"country. As a matter of fact... I don't think any of the stories I've ever heard about people being attacked in National (or State or County)Parks have involved guns. Would a gun have saved any of these peoples lives? Maybe in the case of the Mother and two girls... if one of them could have gotten the gun out and capped the crazy before he finished stabbing them. But so far as I know, crazy-mad killers of the type that committed these atrocious acts don't walk up to a persons face... they lie in wait, stalk their prey... wait until their backs are turned, and then incapacitate them in order to do whatever nefarious things it is that they are going to do... just like the animals that they are. You can't shoot at something that you can't see... and if you're being snuck up on... you can't see.

Now... do I worry about crazys? Of course. As a fairly petite female I attempt to be congnizant of my surroundings at all times. If I am aware I am less likely to be taken by surprise. If I'm hiking with my children... my Mother... or my boyfriend, it doesn't matter. I always try to keep on eye who is there, who is paying attention to my kids... who is to close.... but this is the same behavior I display no matter where I go.. the Zoo, the park or the Mall. Do I think having a gun would keep me safe? No... I don't.

Would I carry a gun in the backcountry? Why would I do that? First of all... there is the issue of weight. Anyone who knows me knows I have enough of an issue without adding extra weight to my pack (or my hips). Would a gun make me feel safe? No... if someone is going to the trouble of hauling their ass to altitude and into the backcountry to hurt me... a bullet isn't going to stop them from doing so. Besides... if they're going to ruin my vacation I'm going to want to do alot more hurt then a bullet can do to pay them back from my misery. But in all seriousness... I see no reason what-so-ever to have gun (legal or otherwise) in the parks. Most of us go into the park system to get away from the everyday craziness... we don't want it hauled back there with us.

Ok.. that was only meant to be two cents... it turned out to be more like a buck fifty or so... do with it what you will...

Rogue - I can use Google and find a few hundred stories where a gun in the backcountry might be useful, but I was asking if ANYONE on this board had a personal story to share. As for the person who came up on the mountain lion, it seems like that worked itself out ok. He either knew how to handle himself against the lion without a gun or he figured it out pretty quickly. Who knows, a gun might have made the situation WORSE.

Even though there are, without a doubt, times when someone could make practical use of a gun in the backcountry, those times are a very small drop in the bucket compared to when one would not be needed. You COULD have the timing belt on your car break on your way to work - DO you carry a spare? Do you know how to install one? Do you carry the tools to install one?

For those who will be carrying in the backcountry - are you going to leave something behind as a weight trade off or will you be sucking it up or just putting in fewer miles?

I kinda think if you decide to open carry either while car camping or in the back country, you are looking more for attention than protection. Just my opinion, but that's the opinion I use most often............................DUG

Am currently at lunch at work, and saw this, which I thought might be of interest in this discussion.

CaT

Thanks, CaT. It will be very interesting to see how the Supreme Court rules on that.

In case people are wondering, the link is to an AP news story:

High court looks at reach of Second Amendment

First paragraph:

William Shatner on Gun Control - It's How Well You Aim the Gun



Edit: If you can't see the video here, this is the YouTube link.

Rod - For some reason, your pic is not displaying on my computer -- only getting the little teeny colored square in the upper left corner of where the image should be if it was showing. Anyone else having this same problem?

CaT

SoCalGirl, very well articulated. Plenty to think on in your response - I've read it 3 times to make sure I caught all your key points. Very similar to Bee's line of thinking as well.

Despite the elevated level of debate going on here and at WPS - and my participation in it - my thoughts are pretty much the same as yours. I've never carried in the wild, and probably never will (Glacier and Yellowstone being the parks I'm hedging on). But then again, I'm not the potential target of those two-legged predators like women are, especially the solo female hikers.

It chafes at me that many women can't take a ramble in the woods by themselves without experiencing a level of anxiety that most men will never know. A solo dayhike in the wilderness re-charges me, clears my mind and leaves me feeling relaxed; I'm afraid for many women it's a constant worry and an exercise in 360-degree perimeter-awareness. My wife won't hike without me under any circumstances because of the anxiety level she feels, especially after Meredith Emerson's experience here locally.

Being so conscious of this, I try to give women a reasonably wide berth when I encounter them on a hike. I try to avoid ever entering that strike-zone that Bee refers to, so that their level of tension doesn't go any higher than it has to (I do most of my hiking solo as well, so unfortunately I'm "that guy" many women are concerned about - a lone male hiker). The mountain trails in the South are generally very narrow and steep though, so when you pass another hiker it's almost always in very close proximity. I make it a point to always step off the trail - often not an easy thing to accomplish - to allow women to pass me with a reasonable cushion.

My recognition of this unfortunate fact really hit home a few years ago during a hike in Death Valley. I think I posted on some thread on WPS last year an experience I had between the Keane Wonder Mine and Chloride City with a young lady who had basically been abandoned on the trail by her boyfriend. She was in a bad way physically - dehydrated, exhausted, flushed, trembling, possibly some AMS - and the SOB had taken all of their water and the first aid kit with him as he continued his self-indulgent hike. I eventually got some water and analgesics into her, gave her my wide-brimmed hat (typical DV day), and escorted her back down to the trailhead. Long story short, when we were in view of the parking lot she broke down sobbing - because it was finally evident that I was trying to help her, not victimize her.

The entire way down - about 4 hours at her very slow, unbalanced pace - she was wound tight as a drum, half-convinced I was up to no good despite all the evidence to the contrary. We had a long chat in the lot while she ate a few power bars and waited for her loser boyfriend to return (he had the car keys), and she just kinda let it all out about the fear she felt being alone up on the mountain, but how that fear actually increased during the first couple of hours of my assisting her. I could sense that she was embarrased to tell me this after the effort I had put forth to get her down safely, but I appreciated her honesty immensely. It was eye-opening for me.

That experience has stayed with me ever since - vividly - and has led to some of the modified behavior on the trail I described. I've been hiking steadily and for quite a while - I would estimate well over 5000 miles so far - but that was the only time I had ever rendered assistance by myself to a lone female in the wilderness. In this young lady's fear I saw my own daughter's future, who was very young at the time but already demonstrating a strong interest in hiking with dad - and it scared the bejeezus out of me.

In a roundabout way, that's why I pose the question of how experienced female hikers feel about carrying in the wilderness. I recognize that I may be a little more emotionally invested in the issue than some, and maybe it clouds my perception, but I can't get the image out of my mind of Gary Hilton coming across Meredith Emerson on that Blood Mountain trail two years ago. In my vision, he sees a sidearm on her hip and a confident look in her eye - and keeps on going. I know it's not grounded in reality or even probability, but it provides me some hope.

There it is -- right there, Doggie. Watch (not too obviously) how some women carry themselves -- some like timid does, others like mighty mooses. Some are dressed like 10-year-olds going to a summer pic-a-nic, others like they mean business. Long before the assailant notices the acessory on her hip, he will have assessed the whole package. Like wolverines waiting for the herd stragglers, human predators prefer easy prey, too. By all means, not to say that any woman "asks" to be attacked, rather, I just observe that it is best to put the odds in one's favor by creating a more formidable first impression at a distance(I would rather not have to wait until up-close-and-personal to make a statement.)

b

I never evaded the questions intentionally, carrying in campgrounds or Yosemite Valley are for the same reasons you would carry any where else except the statistical probability of everything you could think of happening is extremely low, I once heard though it's just hearsay that Yosemite has a high crime rate, primarily due to the massive amount of people that are there so maybe chances are higher there although I feel statistical probability might be irrelevant.

I was thinking today about the idea beyond actual need on the subject of guns, and I really feel that "just because I want to" is more than enough reason in itself, after all the very nature of liberty is being free to do the things that you want, to not feel smothered under the confines of oppression, I couldn't help but think of that old cheesy movie called "Demolition man" when Denis Leary's character was ranting about the police state society and said "I want to run down the street naked with my body covered in jello! singing i'm an oscar myer wiener WHY!? because maybe I suddenly get the urge to!"

We can't deny that the apprehension felt around open carry situations is due to fear mongering, it would be hard to find a single person that would not call America a fear mongering nation, people are being made to be afraid of their own shadow, the point is when was the last time you heard of an incident involving a person doing open carry? I can't recall any cases, and there are still a number of states that allow full open carry of loaded weapons and look at the results? no real incidents to report, the point is if incidents are non existent or practically non existent then you really need to ask yourself why you feel uneasy if you see someone carrying a gun, and yes this is exactly the same thing that someone who carries a gun in a campground can ask themselves, the point falls back to basic liberty and a liberty that was considered so important by the architects of this country that it was number 2 on the bill of rights.



I think the general logic your trying to use could just as easily be used in the opposite manor, I think the statistic is guns are used 2.5 million times a year by citizens to prevent crime, you could just say well it worked out pretty well having a gun, not having one could have made things worse, but I think we both can agree that on either side of the argument we can find incidents where things would have been better with a gun or without one.

I find it amazing that the supreme court would have to even think about the "reach" of the second amendment, the constitution is "supposed" to be the supreme law of all the land, states have to follow it and then as it says "all other laws are respectfully the right of the states", this element of the constitution has long left me wondering how federal law is even legal, by the wording of the constitution it shouldn't be but that is another matter I have been long meaning to research.



Rofl, that part where he says "how about I blow your brains out" " that doesn't work for me, does it work for you?" classic =P

Damn, Rod, that is hilarious! Kudos!

I like Shatner "Here's my watch,here's my wallet, here's my gun"

CaT don't know why you aren't getting it. It works on my computer and apparently RoguePhonic saw it fine.I had to have Steve help me post it.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread at all but this video was just the comic relief this thread needed IMO.

Exactly what we're trying to instill in our daughter Bee. All other accoutrements aside, common sense, awareness and ability are the tools most needed in the wilderness (and really, pretty much everywhere else). Defensively speaking, by age 9 she had the instep-stomp and gonad-smash down pat (boys, watch out in a few years - this cutie will break more than your heart). She's now 10, so I suppose we can move on to eye-gouging and the finer techniques of biting. Sweetheart, Dad's busy - why don't you go practice on the boy next door . . .