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#2583 - 02/28/10 12:17 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Bulldog34]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
I hear you, Doggie....and thank God you care! Apathy and indifference are going to take this country down. You just keep right on caring, and I will keep up the hope.

The Hilton case is that hesitation every time I enter the trail alone (we had the Trailside Killer in the SF BaY Area)Its that little catch that I experience when I see "others" on the trail (I have all sorts of evasive maneuvers that I am forced to use on the prettiest and what should be the most glorious of days) I hike alone almost every single day on the nature trail, and by golly, most of it is done at a full run due to paranoia.

B
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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#2584 - 02/28/10 01:01 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Bulldog34]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Bulldog34,
Do some googleing on Cary Stayner. He's the guy that beheaded the Yosemite naturalist and killed three other women near Yosemite. A mother, her daughter, and a friend visiting from South America. Some transcripts are on line and detail his process for getting to his victims. All by gaining close access to them by deceit. The Joie Armstrong story is especially telling. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/s/p/2002/stayner/STAYNER15TR03.DTL
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#2585 - 02/28/10 01:37 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Bulldog34]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
I agree Alan...

I'd happily debate/discuss any topic with the likes of yourself and Icystair any day. Like you said, we really aren't that far apart even though we're not exactly on the same page. I understand and respect your thoughts, and I think you reciprocate. We could probably spend hours debating in a bar from opposite perspectives on a given matter, and part agreeing to happily do it again soon.

I enjoyed much of the discussion on the WPSMB thread, although there were a couple of exasperating posts too (by people who aren't over here). I especially appreciated a couple of Bulldog's essays. I mentioned somewhere that I own no guns and also that I have always lived in places where I could go out walking at any hour without fear. I also admitted that some event could cause me to regret that attitude, or at least change my mind. For example, if I am held up at gunpoint a couple of times, I might very well re-think my gun non-ownership. In any case, I certainly don't go around telling other people how to respond to such situations!

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#2586 - 02/28/10 01:47 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Chilling Mike. And infuriating as well. This kind of stuff makes me so mad I can hardly see straight.

Meredith Emerson was decapitated as well by Gary Hilton. He abducted her on the trail, walked her back to the trailhead and forced her into his van - it was during that struggle that he lost the baton he had been using, and which helped police identify him very, very quickly. He tried to use her debit card at an ATM, but she had lied about the PIN. As I recall - and I hate to think about this - he finally bludgeoned her to death then decapitated her. A caring, promising young life brutally and mercilessly taken just like that.

I know Meredith and Joie are drops in the bucket compared to the brutality that goes on daily in places like Somalia - or even here in the states - but I believe (or want to, anyway) that there is a special place in hell reserved for (1) anyone who deliberately hurts children, and (2) men who deliberately hurt women. I sometimes waver on the death penalty, but it's instances like these that make me want to volunteer to pull the switch.

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#2588 - 02/28/10 04:00 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Bee]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: Bee
I hear you, Doggie....and thank God you care! Apathy and indifference are going to take this country down. You just keep right on caring, and I will keep up the hope.
B


Deal!

laugh

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#2589 - 02/28/10 05:26 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: wagga]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
I do have to admit that in an open carry situation I would hold no regard what so ever to how others feel about it around me and it's certainly not that I want to worry anyone or that I don't really care but the very nature that others get worried or feel nervous or feel in danger from a person doing open carry completely disgusts me at the state of propaganda and conditioning being put forth in this country, it's probably safe to say that 99% of the people that would open carry are exactly the sort of people you would "want" to have around you and you should feel safer.

People die every single day from a multitude of things that aren't really considered, when someone gets stabbed do we have a national debate on why knifes should be eliminated from society? and with other issues such as big pharma, nearly 300 people die every single day from legal pharmaceutical drugs but no one is getting worked up, or how about the hundreds of thousands of people that die every year from medical personnel making mistakes such as giving you the wrong medicine while in the hospital, oops! sorry we killed him! next!, the point is there is so many other issues to worry about and guns is the least of those, especially when it comes to using any examples of accidents against them, now how many die from car accidents? would be a powerful figure to use in a debate on banning all cars in the world wouldn't it?

On the subject of having a nice debate about stuff I agree that it's good to have opinions posted and considered regardless if you disagree even to the point of becoming angry, I only have come to hate constant debating from past forum experience, I used to engage in heavy digital political activism to the point where it could take 4 hours to write a single post because there was so much information to provide, what I learned is you never get anywhere ever, very few people are willing to consider points or information that can change their constructed view of the world.


Edited by RoguePhotonic (02/28/10 05:28 PM)
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#2591 - 02/28/10 06:26 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Rogue, I agree wholeheartedly that constant debating gets incredibly tiresome, especially with those who get their rocks off by delivering inflammatory rhetoric in an open forum. For me, I try to always remember what my high school debate team instructor preached, lo those many years ago.

There are only 3 types of people in the world, she said: those who firmly believe one thing, those who just as firmly believe the exact opposite, and those who occupy the space in between. All debate, she insisted, should be delivered with that last group in mind as your audience - they're the only ones whose opinion you can really impact.

Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken will change one another's minds when hell freezes over. Revising the opinion of an entrenched opponent should never be your goal - it's a an exercise in futility and leads to the frustration you refer to. Regardless of how nasty an opponent may get, keep your eye on the ball and avoid stooping to their level. A little lightheartedness and humor in a fiery debate can go a long way toward defusing the tension (for that audience I mentioned), and earn you hero points besides. It's the (usually) non-participating audience that you'll strike a chord in and who will remember your well-constructed, thoughtful and civil remarks. You may not see the results as often in a digital forum, but they really are there.

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#2592 - 02/28/10 06:38 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
RoguePhotonic

I fail completely to see the point of an open carry especially in a benign situation. Am I missing something you could fill us in on?
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#2596 - 02/28/10 09:11 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
George Offline
Woodsy Guy

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Quote:
I fail completely to see the point of an open carry especially in a benign situation.


Boy, does that ever sum it up. That Mt. Whitney thread was getting totally out of hand, mostly due to that Fuji guy. As I said there, I don't understand this gun thing -- totally beyond the imagined risk involved.

I will repeat here my point there: In the last 40 years, I don't know of a single incident where a hiker in the backcountry would have prevented injury by having a gun available. There's lots of other incidents where various equipment would definitely have prevented injury or death, but not a gun (helmets, maps, satellite phones, a good tent...). You're looking at your trip junk spread out on the floor. Hmmmm, two extra pair of wool socks or a gun?!? Why this shrill emotion over a gun is beyond me.

So to everyone else, keep hiking and don't be unduly paranoid (though always situationally aware...). Use that weight saved by not carrying a gun by carrying another day or two of food.

g.


Edited by George (02/28/10 09:13 PM)
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#2597 - 02/28/10 09:14 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I do have to admit that in an open carry situation I would hold no regard what so ever to how others feel about it around me and it's certainly not that I want to worry anyone or that I don't really care but the very nature that others get worried or feel nervous or feel in danger from a person doing open carry completely disgusts me at the state of propaganda and conditioning being put forth in this country, it's probably safe to say that 99% of the people that would open carry are exactly the sort of people you would "want" to have around you and you should feel safer.

I sometimes have a bad attitude. Nothing stimulates that sort of attitude quite like someone - anyone - telling me what type of person I should want to have around me. Telling me that runs 180 degrees opposite from the attitude of rugged individualism that people who advocate things like open carry profess to believe in and practice. I reserve for myself the right to decide whom I should want to have around. This has nothing to do with fear of guns. I lived for many years in upstate NY and am quite used to encountering people in the woods carrying various firearms. This is about not liking to be told what to think.

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#2598 - 02/28/10 09:32 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Rogue,
The people that would open carry are not the type of people I would like to have around in any kind of situation, emergency or otherwise. It seems their focus would be on how to solve the situation with a gun instead of their wits, knowledge, and experience.

I just don't get the open carry mentality.
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#2603 - 03/01/10 07:28 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 367
Loc: Wildomar
I'm supposed to be deep in my winter hole, but I will say this - I've been deep in the back country with my son, with Scouts and alone. Day and night. I've ran across just about every form of wildlife that you would see in the Sierras yet I have NEVER needed or wished I had a gun. Fresh socks, a bigger sandwich, maybe even a change of underwear, but never a gun. I feel confident in my abilities to protect myself and those with me without bringing a gun. I respect (and defend via my day job) the rights of those who wish to carry one, however I refuse to hike with those who do. Why? There is no way that anyone packing the extra weight could keep up with me. I won't be slowed down by someone exercising their rights. I would rather hike with someone who packed in a package of cookies to share on the peak.

If you have EVER been in a situation in the backcountry where you thought to yourself - "Damn I wish I had a gun right now", please share.

Back to the dark hole..................................DUG

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#2605 - 03/01/10 07:54 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: DUG]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA


Quote:
If you have EVER been in a situation in the backcountry where you thought to yourself - "Damn I wish I had a gun right now", please share.

Back to the dark hole..................................DUG



Also if you have ever been in a car camping situation where you thought to yourself - "Damn I wish I had a gun right now", please share. (a more likely scenario)
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#2607 - 03/01/10 08:30 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
I kind of touched on this on the other thread, but someone openly carrying is making a statement ("I'm dangerous"), and going out of their way to make others around them uncomfortable, nervous, and offended. I can imagine seeing such a person drinking a beer (legal), who is now also impared.

"God created man, and Sam Colt made them equal."

Since virtually no one is likely to be openly carrying around this person, no one else is equal, that is to say, they are superior to all around them. Should someone want to take their gun away (you can't come into my store wearing that), you are now in a confrontation with an armed person, and you are arguing with them about something that gives them their status above others at the time. People don't like to lose their status, so you now have a dangerous person. If they have been drinking, you have a dangerous person with reduced restraint, reduced reasoning ability, and propensity to fly into a rage. In that condition, anything can happen. They may want to "teach a lesson".

Yikes. These are people to be shunned and avoided.

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#2608 - 03/01/10 08:40 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Ken]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles

http://cbs13.com/local/starbucks.gun.open.2.1526840.html

Gun Fans Applaud Starbucks For Allowing Open Carry

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) &#8213; Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped
to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one customer, but not a peep from the baristas.

Welch's foray into the coffeehouse was part of an effort by some gun owners to exercise and advertise their rights in states that allow people to openly carry firearms.

Even in some "open carry" states, businesses are allowed to ban guns in their stores. And some have, creating political confrontations with gun owners. But Starbucks, the largest chain targeted, has refused to take the bait, saying in a statement this month that it follows state and local laws and has its own safety measures in its stores.

"Starbucks is a special target because it's from the hippie West Coast, and a lot of dedicated consumers who pay $4 for coffee have expectations that Starbucks would ban guns. And here they aren't," said John Bruce, a political science professor at the University of Mississippi who is an expert in gun policy.

Welch, a 71-year-old retired property manager who lives in Richmond, Va., doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't bear arms while he gets caffeinated.

"I don't know of anybody who would provide me with defense other than myself, so I routinely as a way of life carry a weapon -- and that extends to my coffee shops," he said.

The fight for retailers heated up in early January when gun enthusiasts in northern California began walking into Starbucks and other businesses to test state laws that allow gun owners to carry weapons openly in public places. As it spread to other states, gun control groups quickly complained about the parade of firearms in local stores.

Some were spontaneous, with just one or two gun owners walking into a store. Others were organized parades of dozens of gun owners walking into restaurants with their firearms proudly at their sides.

In one case, about 100 activists bearing arms had planned to go to a California Pizza Kitchen in Walnut Creek, Calif., but after it became clear they weren't welcome they went to another restaurant. That chain and Peet's Coffee & Tea are among the businesses that have banned customers with guns.

Just as shops can deny service to barefoot customers, restaurants and stores in some states can declare their premises gun-free zones.

The advocacy group OpenCarry.org, a leading group encouraging the demonstrations, applauded Starbucks in a statement for "deciding not to discriminate against lawful gun carriers."

"Starbucks is seen as a responsible corporation and they're seen as a very progressive corporation, and this policy is very much in keeping with that," said John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. "If you're going to support individual rights, you have to support them all. I applaud them, and I've gone out of my way personally to let every manager of every Starbucks I pass know that."

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has responded by circulating a petition that soon attracted 26,000 signatures demanding that Starbucks "offer espresso shots, not gunshots" and declare its coffeehouses "gun-free zones."

Gun control advocates hope the coffeehouse firearms displays end up aggravating more people than they inspire.

"If you want to dress up and go out and make a little political theater by frightening children in the local Starbucks, if that's what you want to spend your energy on, go right ahead," said Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady campaign. "But going out and wearing a gun on your belt to show the world you're allowed to is a little juvenile."

The coffeehouse debate has been particularly poignant for gun-control advocates in Washington state, where four uniformed police officers were shot and killed while working on their laptops at a suburban coffeehouse. The shooter later died in a gun battle with police.

Ralph Fascitelli of Washington Ceasefire, an advocacy group that seeks to reduce gun violence, said allowing guns in coffeehouses robs residents of "societal sanctuaries."

"People go to Starbucks for an escape, just so they can get peace," Fascitelli said. "But people walk in with open-carry guns and it destroys the tranquility."

Gun control advocates have been on the defensive. Their opponents have trumpeted fears that gun rights would erode under a Democrat-led White House and Congress, but President Barack Obama and his top allies have largely been silent on issues such as reviving an assault weapons ban or strengthening background checks at gun shows.

Gun rights groups are looking to build on a 2008 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that struck down Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban, and cheered legislation that took effect Monday allowing licensed gun owners to bring firearms into national parks. Obama signed that legislation as part of a broader bill.

Legislators in Montana and Tennessee, meanwhile, have passed measures seeking to exempt guns made and kept in-state from national gun control laws. And state lawmakers elsewhere are considering legislation that would give residents more leeway to carry concealed weapons without permits.

Observers say the gun rights movement is using the Starbucks campaign to add momentum and energize its supporters.

"They're trying to change the culture with this broader notion of gun rights," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University government professor who has written a book on the politics of gun control. "I think they are pressing the notion that they've got a rout going, so why not just get what they can while they're ahead?"

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#2609 - 03/01/10 10:45 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Ken]
bobpickering Online


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 311
Loc: Reno, Nevada
I own six guns, but I don't feel comfortable around people who insist on carrying them when they aren't hunting or target shooting. During the course of life, tempers sometimes flare, and it's a good thing that people without guns can't shoot anybody when they get mad.

I live just north or Reno, and the hills around my house are a great place to ride my horse or my mountain bike. Many other people also ride motorcycles and ATVs in this area. There is a lot of traffic on the weekend when the weather is nice.

Unfortunately, it's also a popular area for shooting. That wouldn't be a problem if the shooters cared about the safety of others. They routinely shoot across a road or where their bullets could ricochet towards other people. I met one guy who set up his targets in the middle of the road I was riding down. Another time, I was riding up a hill and heard bullets whizzing over my head from the other side. When the shooting finally stopped, I hurried to the top of the hill, made sure the shooters saw me, and rode down to talk to them. When I told them that their bullets were ricocheting right over my head, and that there were other shooters just beyond where I had been, their response was "What can I tell you? We're shooting into the dirt!" When I try to instill a little concern for safety into the local rednecks, the response is always along the lines of "We've been shooting out here since blah blah blah and it's not our fault if somebody else gets shot."

I do my best to avoid the shooters, and I've just about given up riding on the weekends. I need to see whether the local sheriff will agree that the right not to be shot at trumps somebody's Second Amendment right to shoot wherever he pleases.

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#2610 - 03/01/10 11:13 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: bobpickering]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7233
Loc: Fresno, CA
> When I try to instill a little concern for safety into the local rednecks, the response is always along the lines of "We've been shooting out here since blah blah blah and it's not our fault if somebody else gets shot."

And the open-carry fanatics wonder why people get nervous when they see someone carrying a weapon just because it's their right. I worry that the guy carrying the weapon is "carrying with attitude".

How many more Rick Liles are there out there?

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#2611 - 03/01/10 12:38 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Ken]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Ken,
A scary thing also is that there are people that will fly into a rage without the beer. When you hear "I'm going to carry no matter what." you've found one. Several have posted on the various forums. They do seem to have gone quiet though.


Edited by Mike Condron (03/01/10 12:39 PM)
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#2612 - 03/01/10 12:47 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Steve C]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
From the other board (but I'd rather answer here)...

Originally Posted By: bulldog34
Ditto Icy. I'm now an observer of this topic, other than replying to any posts directed my way.

What I'd really like to hear is the opinions of the female board members, of which there are a bunch. Bee and BiletChick weighed in earlier, but it's pretty much been a testosterone-laced discussion. The prospect of armed national parks affects women as much as men, and there have to be some pretty signficant thoughts out there among the gentler gender. I'd love to hear them.

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...



I'm scary enough without a gun. mad



Now, ya'll go and take care of that testosterone poisoning...

Next thing you know, there will be more whining about having to carry bear cans... oh wait...
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#2613 - 03/01/10 12:59 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: MooseTracks]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
I knew you'd come back with something like that Laura - when I originally posted that the thought crossed my mind, "If there's anyone in the Sierra that doesn't need a weapon, it's Moosie"!

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