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#2697 - 03/03/10 07:34 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Bulldog34]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2243
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
A good punt, but they are illegal now.
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Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

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#2698 - 03/03/10 08:17 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
when Australia banned guns, crimes rates across the board sky rocketed.

Not true.

Quote:
Not surprisingly, the National Rifle Association didn't let the facts get in the way of its claims that stricter gun laws had caused an increase in crime in Australia. Attorney-General of Australia, Daryl Williams, pointed out in letter to Charlton Heston that "firearms are being used less often in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery in 1998 compared with 1997." He also stated in his letter, "The 54 firearm-related homicides in Australia in 1998 equate to a rate of only 0.28 per 100,000 people. I have been advised that this compares to a rate which is in the order of 4 per 100,000 in the United States. Now that you have the facts, I request that you withdraw immediately the misleading information from your latest campaign."

Ref.

See also a decent discussion on the Snopes Web site.

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#2699 - 03/03/10 08:33 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
Or how about the bigger picture such as many years ago when Japan said they would never want to invade America because they knew how everyone was armed.

You are kidding, right? Surely you don't believe this!

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#2700 - 03/03/10 08:37 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: wagga]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Quote:
Does the same "self defense" rational apply in these very benign locations?


Of course it does, yet as I already pointed out it depends on how relevant you hold the statistical probability, if someone wants to carry a gun in a location with almost no chance of ever needing it's use then who am I to really argue their happiness.

And if the mind set was i'm going to say "freed" then they wouldn't be taking anything from others.

Thanks for the information Bulldog34, although I think the figures can prove a point I can't say I support the idea that everyone should have to be armed, that is taking their rights away just the same if they could not have guns with different implications of course, people should always be allowed to not own a gun as much as they should be allowed to own them IMO.

I do like though when states have things like guns put into their constitution, it stops draconian local ordinances.
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#2701 - 03/03/10 08:46 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: AlanK]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2243
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
I'm Oz., and I live in America. California, to be specific.

I was brought up with guns; 10 gauge shotguns for snakes & general carnage, long-barreled .22 long rifle revolvers for surprises, and Olympic air guns for precision practice.

Step into my bedroom in the wee smalls & take your choice. Nah., It's my choice. A 10 gauge discharge is quite loud. The last sound you would ever hear.
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#2702 - 03/03/10 08:49 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: wagga]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
I missed page 5 to respond to and since so many seem to read before I can edit i'll make a new post.

In regards to the bit posted by AlanK, there is a key bit of wording in that memo " firearms are being used less often in murder", it's only natural that firearm related crime goes down but the crime rates in themselves don't go down, I am going by memory from reading years ago but after the ban the homicide rates went up 134% wasn't it? and that being on one crime rate that shot up, now I do admit that sky rocketing crime rates don't necessarily mean it has anything to do with the ban on guns, speaking from a strictly scientific view point but the sudden rise in conjunction with the ban is worth a mention.

Quote:
You are kidding, right? Surely you don't believe this!


I wish I had the quote on hand as I saw it perhaps a few months ago, was from some member of the Japanese government as I recall, and yes I believe it because it's an easy tactical assessment, a country has millions of gun owners that would resist your invasion, it's an almost unwinnable scenario short of genocide of course.
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#2703 - 03/03/10 08:52 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Just to be sure I hear you right, open carry rights in a benign situation like a car camp campground in Yosemite trump the quiet enjoyment of the park by those visiting and you would carry openly in a car camping campground even though it would upset those camped around you?
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#2704 - 03/03/10 09:09 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: wagga]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Quote:
Just to be sure I hear you right, open carry rights in a benign situation like a car camp campground in Yosemite trump the quiet enjoyment of the park by those visiting and you would carry openly in a car camping campground even though it would upset those camped around you?


Short answer yes, more precisely I say that because I go back to people having completely the wrong attitude, you say trump the quiet enjoyment but how is that? how does an extra piece of equipment on a person make any difference what so ever, it only does in the mind set of those around you and I will always feel that fear is irrational and I do no good to myself, those people or my country to surrender my rights without an absolutely good reason.

To put it in another way, if there were numerous cases around America of shootings involving people doing open carry I might understand peoples fear and give them some space in benign situations, but without that I cannot.

Lets put forth a great example, Americans have been so pumped full of propaganda about the evil Muslims that they feel uncomfortable and feel fear when one gets on an airplane with them, now should that lets say man not wear a turban because it makes people around him uncomfortable? should he not even fly at all? is the feelings those people feel even right? should he surrender his rights his beliefs or his comforts because of irrational fear?

I hope your getting the point I am trying to make because if you don't then all this discussion just becomes in vain, you will take me as a person that has no regard for others and that couldn't be further from the truth but like I said a couple pages back in comes down to choice to carry or not, if people who are against it can come up with anything other then it makes me uneasy or a basis of uneasiness that can be considered justified then I may consider it more seriously.


Edited by RoguePhotonic (03/03/10 09:15 PM)
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#2705 - 03/03/10 09:19 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
I just wanted you to put your position out there. Everyone is entitled to one and we now know yours. Thank you for sharing.
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#2706 - 03/03/10 09:53 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I hope your getting the point I am trying to make because if you don't then all this discussion just becomes in vain, you will take me as a person that has no regard for others and that couldn't be further from the truth but like I said a couple pages back in comes down to choice to carry or not, if people who are against it can come up with anything other then it makes me uneasy or a basis of uneasiness that can be considered justified then I may consider it more seriously.

FWIW, you don't come across to me as someone who has little regard for others. I'm sure you are a perfectly reasonable fellow.

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#2708 - 03/03/10 09:58 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I wish I had the quote on hand as I saw it perhaps a few months ago, was from some member of the Japanese government as I recall, and yes I believe it because it's an easy tactical assessment, a country has millions of gun owners that would resist your invasion, it's an almost unwinnable scenario short of genocide of course.

This article discusses the Australian business as well as the claim about the Japanese. It is pretty clear that the Japanese never considered invading the US, period.

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#2712 - 03/03/10 11:07 PM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: AlanK]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
"I do admit that I am making generalizations, my only argument is I am basing the generalizations on the lack of any cases of open carry problems while the other side makes them based on what exactly? what ifs?"

I have to wonder where you live. I lived in Bakersfield, working in the trauma center at Kern Medical. I never saw anyone in the city openly wearing in all that time. I've never seen anyone in Fresno, Lone Pine, LA, Palmdale, Lancaster, Delano, Taft, Porterville, Springville, and many other central valley towns "open wearing."

Understand that you are talking about a behavior that is WEIRD: that is, something that virtually no one has ever seen before. You can believe it or not, but the sight of an armed person makes virtually everyone who sees it nervous and unsettled, because it is WEIRD. WEIRD people, of ANY kind, make most people unsettled. Most people want to move away. Most people, protective of their families, will complain, if they cannot move. If they complain to you, you've made it clear that you will not take their position into account, you don't care if you are destroying their vacation, you don't care if they are upset.

Those attitudes will not win friends and influence people.

You have made it clear that you are willing to take it upon yourself to use a gun to protect yourself from any perceived danger. You might consider that others will consider YOU to be a perceived danger. You might take your gun out to clean, and someone may interpret that as "brandishing", and so state to authorities. THAT is the weapon that they have to protect their families from perceived threat. Off you go to jail for observation, particularly if you make any kind of stink, then you get hit for resisting, and THAT won't go away when the brandishing witnesses don't show up for your trial. By the way, if convicted of that, you are now a felon, and I don't believe you may own a gun. Oh, and if the gun is *loaded*......

Saying that they don't deserve to feel that way, when it is the vast majority of the population, is pretty non-productive.

So you might want to consider the possible consequences of the behavior you advocate, and the reaction that it may trigger, and consequences of that.

People don't like to be made fearful, and when it is done deliberately, they can react in unpredictable ways.

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#2716 - 03/04/10 01:07 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: wagga]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Quote:
It is pretty clear that the Japanese never considered invading the US, period


I didn't mean to imply that they were planning it, the mans comments were probably off slight considerations.

Quote:
I never saw anyone in the city openly wearing in all that time.


I've never seen anyone carrying in any city, something I consider a real tragedy.

Quote:
behavior that is WEIRD


Well by weird you mean uncommon, and I accept everything all you have said about what people feel but i'm going in circles in trying to explain why they think it, every reason I have been given as to why they think it is irrational IMO.

Quote:
You might take your gun out to clean, and someone may interpret that as "brandishing"


I would never take a gun out to clean in a populated area especially if it's filled with people that don't know what is going on.

Quote:
Saying that they don't deserve to feel that way, when it is the vast majority of the population, is pretty non-productive.


I don't see getting rid of guns in any way as being productive though, our species is no where near a level of safety from larger threats to even think about the idea, that's why I sometimes will call anti gun people "genocide enablers".

And sure your notions of being arrested are very real, that's why most people that open carry bring the laws with them and an audio recorder in order to record the encounters with the police because abuses of rights are so common, I heard of one guy that was arrested and held for two days when he was open carrying, the police seem to always get it wrong that you are able to carry loaded magazine clips and it does not matter how close they are to your gun.
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#2717 - 03/04/10 06:29 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Rogue,
You are in the group of "I'm carrying because I can and I don't care one iota about you." people.
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Mike

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#2719 - 03/04/10 06:50 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 368
Loc: Wildomar
I've thought about it and I've decided that it is my RIGHT to pack heat, just as much as anyone else's. I still think a gun is useless, so my team and I will be packing these -

http://www.thegreenhead.com/2007/07/20-million-candlepower-flashlight-spotlight.php

With at least five of those on the team we should be able to cut our way through the night. Sometimes you got to do it just because you FEEL LIKE IT.

And, no more iPod and headphones! Screw that. It's my RIGHT to listen to music on the trail so we are looking into a system that allows each member of the team to carry a speaker and we can listen to our music wirelessly. If you know of a semi portable stereo system that uses wireless speakers - please LMK. Louder is BETTER.

Outpost Camp and Trail Camp should expect to hear the Warrior Song (http://www.thewarriorsong.com/) as we pass through.

It's my RIGHT to pack the brightest flashlights known to man and I refuse to give up that right (unless someone here asks me not too).

At least a 20 million candlepower flashlight would be useful - what bear or cat is gonna go after us when that is shined in their eyes? What human? No more stove either - we can roast hotdogs on it!

The future is soooooo bright, I gotta wear shades.................................................DUG

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#2722 - 03/04/10 07:52 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
MooseTracks Offline


Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 582
Loc: Bishop, CA, United States
Originally Posted By: Mike Condron
Rogue,
You are in the group of "I'm carrying because I can and I don't care one iota about you." people.


And Mike, you are in the "I'm going to pick the scab off this thing and irritate the s**t out of it until someone realizes it's bleeding."

We know Rogue's position. We know your position. Give it a rest.
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#2725 - 03/04/10 09:10 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: MooseTracks]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7556
Loc: Fresno, CA
I might just GET ONE of those lights, DUG! Some years ago, I got one of those lighter-plug-in lights that was really bright at the time. Used it one night on the Tioga road, half way between Tuolumne Meadows and Tioga Pass at the meadow where they have the deer crossing signs.

Pulled off the road, flicked on the light.

All these glowing eyes immediately showed up! Fun stuff.

Rogue, click the blinking red envelope at the top of the page.

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#2726 - 03/04/10 09:18 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: MooseTracks]
Mike Condron Offline


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 215
Loc: Now Manteca, CA
Laura,
This is the "Packing Heat" thread and the topic will be debated for a while yet I'm sure. We differ on whether or not it's scab picking.

Mike


Edited by Mike Condron (03/04/10 09:49 AM)
Edit Reason: added "the" in front of topic
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#2729 - 03/04/10 09:52 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 208
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Mike Condron
Laura,
This is the "Packing Heat" thread and topic will be debated for a while yet I'm sure. We differ on whether or not it's scab picking.

Mike


Some of this topic has been debate and some has been name calling. I think Laura noticed the difference. Some don't or can't.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#2731 - 03/04/10 09:55 AM Re: Packing Heat. [Re: Mike Condron]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Mike Condron
Your limit is the thing you did just before the one that killed you.

That reminds me of the old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon in which Calvin asks his dad how they determine the weight limit on bridges. His dad replies that they drive bigger and bigger trucks over it until it collapses. Then they rebuild the bridge exactly as before and the limit is the largest truck that made it over.

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