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#27316 - 08/28/12 07:37 AM censorship and political thread
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
I just have to comment on the decision by Steve to not allow comment beyond "his" level of comfort of allowance.

This means that those who have not yet commented will not be allowed.

This means that those who have not yet added yet another viewpoint will not be allowed.

I do not agree with those actions being taken. I FREQUENTLY get involved in discusssions that make me uncomfortable, because I WANT to hear other viewpoints, I WANT to expand my understanding of others, I CARE to know what others think.

This forum has as it's description : "Off topic chatter, silly jokes, etc. are welcome. Civil and ethical conduct is required."

Well, I guess NOT so welcome, eh? I don't believe that civil or ethical lines have been crossed, and shutting discussion down so that is not possible is simply censorship by the arbitrary decision of the webmasters. Not illegal, not immoral, not unethical.....but it is, what it is.

I would point out that THIS website was formed as a direct result of objections to the censorship by Doug of the Whitney Portal Store website, of things objectionable to people here. I find it ironic that a new level of censorship----NOT of uncivil or unethical conduct-----but of unacceptable topics in the "anything goes" section, is the new norm.

If this is the way that things are, then the title of the "The Chat Room" should clearly state what is unacceptable for discussion, instead of an incorrect statement that "Off topic chatter, silly jokes, etc. are welcome"

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#27317 - 08/28/12 08:35 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Ken]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
I'm in 100% agreement.

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#27318 - 08/28/12 09:05 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Ken]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
In my opinion, the locked thread was becoming UNcivil. It went beyond "chatter", moving into an uglier state, where people's attitudes on the topic could make enemies out of what should be friends here.

On the other board, the censorship involved topics related to hiking -- rescues, fatalities, lightning -- all related to Mt Whitney. We try hard not to censor those. But it could happen there, too, if things become uncivil.

In the locked thread, pretty much everyone who wanted had plenty of time to state their case. It got to the point that people were just rehashing their opinions. The discussion was making the moderators edgy. Some here have a higher threshold of what is civil, but I am sure there are others who would read and never come back because what was written already was beyond reasonable.

I know locking (or worse, deleting) a thread rubs some people the wrong way, but I am pretty sure it is ok with others. There is no way everyone is going to be happy with our actions. I am sorry for that.

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#27319 - 08/28/12 09:08 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
One person has even sent a PM suggesting we create an "Ignore Thread" option. (Unfortunately I don't have that expertise.)

And there is no way we moderators could use that feature. It would be like allowing a brawl to go on right outside the front door, but pretend it didn't exist.

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#27322 - 08/28/12 11:41 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
I tend to dislike political discussions on boards like this, but I have been known to contribute to threads that are inconsistent with that dislike. I guess I have more of a guideline than a rule.

I prefer to avoid censorship. In the present case, I read nothing on the thread in question that would make me avoid hiking with the writer, so I see no need to censor. But someone else's mileage may vary, so I sympathize with Steve's situation. I can live with closing down threads for being too much "something" but agree that we then need some guidance on what "something" to avoid.

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#27333 - 08/28/12 09:41 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: AlanK]
lynn-a-roo Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 625
Loc: OrangeCounty
FYI.......I would never hold a grudge against anyone on this board for speaking their mind...its hard to write anything hear without bringing up the past...I would just like to say I'm sorry for causing a ruckus and my true intent was to support a fellow Zoner but I got carried away and and made it personal...I should have logged off and slept off my feelings..I'm sure in the morning I would have forgotten all about it...Good night...I've got a wonderful trip to Hawaii to prepare for....I won an award at work last year so pretty much all expenses are paid....ALOHA!

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#27334 - 08/28/12 10:28 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: lynn-a-roo]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
Lynn,
have a great time in Hawaii. And congrats on the award!
Tom

(P.S. your PM box is full)

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#27337 - 08/29/12 08:22 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
If you don't want politics discussed...just put no partisan politics in the "The Chat Room header, that is the only way to solve what appears to be an unwanted problem.

Ignore buttons don't work...people always look at the accident then complain about people looking at the accident.

This is a private board with rules.


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#27384 - 08/31/12 05:06 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: wbtravis]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 939
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
I once read that there are 3 topics to avoid at a family reunion

politics, religion, and child-rearing

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#27385 - 08/31/12 06:04 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1025
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
I once read that there are 3 topics to avoid at a family reunion

politics, religion, and child-rearing


in some families you need to add a fourth one: ultra light hiking gear, although you may argue that the subject falls into the religion category laugh
_________________________
My Stuff on Flickr

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#27589 - 09/09/12 03:24 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Ken]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
I'm still in the mountains 101 days into this hike so it's a bit weird to chime in on a thread of this nature but I thought I would just add my opinion.

Not so much related to censorship but to political discussions in general perhaps all around and not just on forums are completely a waste of time. I spent many years of my life reading all day every day and sorting through information on a seemingly endless search for knowledge and truth and as a result I took highly to activism to raise awareness on what ever political topic was at hand. The result ultimately was a complete waste of years of my life getting no where. Countless hours replying to forums posts and exhaustingly finding and referencing documents. Yet again no effect and as it was pointed out here that people come full circle no matter how clearly you make your point or no matter how many times you answer the same questions they will come around again. So what am I trying to say? I am saying don't waste your time, any of you! Not on here, not on any forum! Don't even waste your time on people you know or care about. You CANNOT change ANYONES mind! People will believe what ever they want to believe and that is it. America is a never ending mind F%*& of talking heads wasting time. Yes some of us care and it's hard to watch people walking into their own doom but learn to silently watch them walk off the cliff and sigh as the rope they have attached to you runs out of slack and takes you over also.

Learn to accept humanities legacy.

Now I must return to the wilderness where these sorts of things are mute.
_________________________
FlickR

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#27597 - 09/09/12 06:51 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Well, I'll agree to disagree.

What you say is ok as far as it goes, but it neglects that people who are not decided on issues also read, and gather information from what others say...I certainly do.

There is also something to be said for allowing incorrect information to sit out there uncommented, giving people the impression that it is actually true. Happens all the time.

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#27634 - 09/11/12 06:22 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Ken]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 578
Loc: Manchester, NH
There have been some fascinating studies done about why some tend towards conservative vs. progressive points of view, and it appears that we may become 'hard-wired'. I recall reading a tongue-in-cheek piece by Nicholas Kristof a few years ago, lamenting that perhaps his careful research and artful gifts of persuasion might well be all for naught. How we view change - inevitable or not - is a key indicator.


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#27636 - 09/11/12 09:12 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: KevinR]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
> perhaps his careful research and artful gifts of persuasion might well be all for naught

Somewhere a while back, I read of a study that found that with many people, when presented with a compelling amount of logical and scientific information to prove a particular point, those people will refuse to change their views, and even become more convinced that their view is the correct one.

> How we view change - inevitable or not - is a key indicator.

I don't quite understand that statement, and am curious what effect people's view of change has.

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#27647 - 09/11/12 11:23 AM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 186
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Steve C
> perhaps his careful research and artful gifts of persuasion might well be all for naught
...

> How we view change - inevitable or not - is a key indicator.

I don't quite understand that statement, and am curious what effect people's view of change has.


Some people will fight change because it is change, without regard for whether it is for better or for worse or whether it is desirable or even possible for things to go on as they are. It's their view of change.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#27650 - 09/11/12 01:14 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: KevinR]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
I disagree with this.

Conservatives in the U.S. don't want change because they prefer a political system that is based on a constitutional republic and a free market economy.

A conservative who lives in a democratic socialist country or pure socialist company will have a completely different political and economic philosophy and will also resist change.

Though there are some who certainly fear change, the bulk of the resistance is due to underlying beliefs and value systems.

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#27651 - 09/11/12 01:36 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: tdtz]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
tdtz, I don't think dbd (nor I) were criticizing any particular side, conservative or otherwise. I was just making a general statement that many people's beliefs are so deep-rooted that there is pretty much nothing that could ever get them to change their views.

I think people's views may change, but they would be more from their own personal experiences and observations rather than arguments between to diametrically opposed extremists. And the changes in views would likely be in tiny increments.

I'd enjoy seeing two sides presented by informed and calm discussions. When I start seeing extreme statements and exaggerations, I tend to discount everything that person is saying.


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#27652 - 09/11/12 02:03 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
Steve,
I obviously missed my mark with my post. I was addressing the idea that the view on who is averse to change is largely based on perspective.

To say that the reason that someone doesn't accept another viewpoint is due to a hardwired resistance to change is dismissive, regardless of what those views are.

And I agree, extreme statements, exaggerations, ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority are really not very effective persuasive techniques. They certainly didn't work on me.

If you read my post, you will find that there was no value placed on conservative or liberal views, they were just presented as examples of perspective.


Edited by tdtz (09/11/12 02:04 PM)

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#27653 - 09/11/12 04:18 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: Steve C]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 578
Loc: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted By: Steve C
> perhaps his careful research and artful gifts of persuasion might well be all for naught

Somewhere a while back, I read of a study that found that with many people, when presented with a compelling amount of logical and scientific information to prove a particular point, those people will refuse to change their views, and even become more convinced that their view is the correct one.

> How we view change - inevitable or not - is a key indicator.

I don't quite understand that statement, and am curious what effect people's view of change has.


Steve - The science seems to indicate that those who view change as an inevitable part of life tend to have views which are labeled progressive. These people also have a more positive world view, and are less fearful in general. And tdtz - this isn't my opinion. It's my best attempt to summarize a few scientific studies attempting to determine how we make decisions.

Personally, I find this whole area of research fascinating, and in time will change how we market anything - toothpaste, pantyhose, cars, political parties, etc.

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#27654 - 09/11/12 04:48 PM Re: censorship and political thread [Re: KevinR]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
So we are going to back into a political discussion, again?

Quote:
Conservatives in the U.S. don't want change because they prefer a political system that is based on a constitutional republic and a free market economy.

A conservative who lives in a democratic socialist country or pure socialist company will have a completely different political and economic philosophy and will also resist change.


either shut it down, or let us talk. Don't pick sides.

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