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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27569 09/08/12 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Originally Posted By: wagga
Does anybody know what the light green/darker green demarcation line is on the west slope of Whitney? It passes through Mt. Russell & heads North/South.
I don't think it is the Zone, as I can't see it at Lone Pine Lake. You will need to select "Terrain".

Wagga, I think that's just a 3D shading effect you're referring to. The steep eastern escarpment shows up as darker because the light source used to render the topography is coming from the west. That would explain why it only shows up in terrain view. In some 3D mapping programs you can change the direction of the lighting.


Nope, definitely not the contour shading: its a subtler shading that follows zig-zagging straight line segments both east and west of the crest, very roughly parallel, creating a band roughly between 1 and 3 miles wide. I followed it south to the confluence of Golden Trout Creek and Kern R, and north to Shepherd Pass, where it widens or splits and seems to follow the Kings Kern Divide West and the Crest North. Seems to have something to do with these divides, but does not follow contours


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
saltydog #27570 09/08/12 08:17 AM
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agree with salty

military reasons? ("stay above the hard deck")

last bit of the trail to the summit look much more crooked than I remember and I was just there again last month

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
Harvey Lankford #27572 09/08/12 03:27 PM
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Steve: Welcome back! Fascinating watching your progress, and so glad you were able to complete this impressive hike. Really looking forward to your TR, your experiences and decision making in backing off Black Kaweah, the PP crossing, rerouting to Arctic Lake drainage, and my favorite, your route and perceptions climbing into the lowering clouds around
sunset


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
saltydog #27573 09/08/12 03:31 PM
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Hi Steve,
"You da Man". Magnificent hike! I too want to hear all about it. Why down to Iceberg lake, and then up the chute?

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
saltydog #27576 09/08/12 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Originally Posted By: wagga
Does anybody know what the light green/darker green demarcation line is on the west slope of Whitney? It passes through Mt. Russell & heads North/South.
I don't think it is the Zone, as I can't see it at Lone Pine Lake. You will need to select "Terrain".

Wagga, I think that's just a 3D shading effect you're referring to. The steep eastern escarpment shows up as darker because the light source used to render the topography is coming from the west. That would explain why it only shows up in terrain view. In some 3D mapping programs you can change the direction of the lighting.


Nope, definitely not the contour shading: its a subtler shading that follows zig-zagging straight line segments both east and west of the crest, very roughly parallel, creating a band roughly between 1 and 3 miles wide. I followed it south to the confluence of Golden Trout Creek and Kern R, and north to Shepherd Pass, where it widens or splits and seems to follow the Kings Kern Divide West and the Crest North. Seems to have something to do with these divides, but does not follow contours


What map are you looking at? I think I see what Wagga is talking about in the images posted now that you described it a little better. I really didn't think Wagga would confuse the contour shading but it read that way.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27577 09/08/12 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada


What map are you looking at? Maybe if you post an image we can figure it out.


Look at either Steve's SPOT locator or the Spotwalla page (links above) in Terrain view. Shows clearly in the images Wagga posted above.


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
saltydog #27578 09/09/12 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada


What map are you looking at? Maybe if you post an image we can figure it out.


Look at either Steve's SPOT locator or the Spotwalla page (links above) in Terrain view. Shows clearly in the images Wagga posted above.

It looks to me that these shades of green are crude approximations of vegetation type. The color scheme changes as you zoom out but the general concept is similar - zig zaggy lines roughly delineating vegetation zones. If you zoom out to a different map scale (without contours) you'll see the Whitney area and other areas above treeline as white shaded regions. I'm guessing these vegetation layers just haven't been fully developed yet so they're somewhat off. If someone has a better explanation I'd like to read about it.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27579 09/09/12 12:28 AM
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Since he spent the night on the summit, there must not have been an obvious threat of thunderstorms, as some speculated.

I enjoyed tracking his circuitous route. Must have been a nice adventure.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
John Sims #27581 09/09/12 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: John Sims
Hi Steve,
"You da Man". Magnificent hike! I too want to hear all about it. Why down to Iceberg lake, and then up the chute?


Dropping down from Whitney-Russel col to Iceberg was easier for me than trying to traverse across to join the MR at a higher level . Let's see what Steve says. .........plus it is last chance for a fill up.

As for the other topic, I don' think everyone reaizes that the faint change in shading that Wagga is talking about is a STRAIGHT line,and when it does change it is angular, not like a contour line

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
Harvey Lankford #27587 09/09/12 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
As for the other topic, I don' think everyone reaizes that the faint change in shading that Wagga is talking about is a STRAIGHT line,and when it does change it is angular, not like a contour line

Harvey, the vegetation layers I'm talking about are straight lines that roughly follow contours. In the screen shots below I've captured the "Forest cover" and "Tundra cover" layers for the Whitney area. The "tundra layer" highlites the very tallest region but it does not follow contour lines. What you see is that the layers are drawn as vector data with straight lines. When I turn off the vector layers in the next image, these boundaries appear smoother, especially when blended with terrain shading in steep areas. Compare the green "forest cover" in the flat valley and the straight lines still look like straight lines.

These specific layers, and other datasets, are not used at all map resolutions. As you zoom in to higher resolution, the tundra data disappears and is replaced by different shading. At the zoomed-in level the vector layer (lines and polygons) is converted to raster data (pixels), which is the green shading Wagga is describing. The quality control of the data and the color schemes vary at different resolutions. The dark green area Wagga is referring to should have been white to be consistent with the lower resolution dataset, but the two datasets probably came from different sources. This seems to be an issue in other areas of Google maps as well. Remember, this is free stuff and the layer data is coming from multiple sources.

That's my guess on what's up with the dark green shading. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time, but it makes sense and seems reasonable to me.






Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27588 09/09/12 12:46 PM
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Wellllllll, maybe, but if you look at where the lines are, and think about what is actually on the ground in those areas, maybe not. In the shot Wagga posted above, there is one such clear line just west of the edge of the Whitney summit plateau, and opposite that, just east of the edge of Iceberg Lake. What would the significant vegetation changes at those points be?


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
saltydog #27590 09/09/12 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
Wellllllll, maybe, but if you look at where the lines are, and think about what is actually on the ground in those areas, maybe not. In the shot Wagga posted above, there is one such clear line just west of the edge of the Whitney summit plateau, and opposite that, just east of the edge of Iceberg Lake. What would the significant vegetation changes at those points be?

The band you describe spanning across the Whitney crest might represent the plant species at the highest elevation. At a larger map scale in the image I embedded, this general area is called "tundra." At the smaller map scale that's got us wondering, the source data seems to be different with different boundaries and color schemes (shades of green instead of white and green). If I'm correct, these vegetation zones are probably coming from someone sketching them in click, click, click with a mouse over the entire Sierra with minimal accuracy.

Once again, I could be off, but it makes sense to me. I think we're all sure these zones are not any kind of jurisdictional boundary (NF, NPS, County, Whitney zone etc.)

Edit: I'll ask our top GIS expert at my office this week to see if we can positively identify the source layer for this green shading.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27591 09/09/12 05:00 PM
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I think there are some areas in the Zone where dogs and domestic goats are prohibited - to protect the native sheep.


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
wagga #27592 09/09/12 05:26 PM
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I give up. Way over my head.

Maybe Steve saw some of those lines when he was up there.


Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
wagga #27593 09/09/12 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
I think there are some areas in the Zone where dogs and domestic goats are prohibited - to protect the native sheep.

Could be, Wagga, but a restricted area would probably be defined with something other than a slightly darker shade of green. I think they chose this color scheme for the small map scale to emphasize the lack of accuracy in the data. A dramatic color contrast would imply an accurate delineation, especially at small map scales. The boundaries seem a bit willy-nilly to me so I'm sticking with my etch-a-sketch theory for vegetation. I hope my colleague can find the source layer and then we'll know for sure. As I mentioned above, this mystery layer is raster data in GMAP, so he'll have to either find a really good legend that explains it, or the original vector data layer that was merged into the base map. Maybe he'll have another trick up his sleeve, he's amazing at this stuff.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27594 09/09/12 05:58 PM
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Just talked to Steve as he was pulling into Fresno. He took his daughter up on the roof of the Museum so that she could clean the glass on the webcam.

He's home safe, & will report later tonight.

I was just thinking that he did this epic trip, and the chattering class is going on about green lines...


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Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
wagga #27595 09/09/12 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
I was just thinking that he did this epic trip, and the chattering class is going on about green lines...


well, we are waiting for Steve to take a shower.

Something to do beside curse at my new Nexus tablet- I'm slow.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
Harvey Lankford #27596 09/09/12 06:46 PM
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Nice trip, Steve, done in good style!


Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
wagga #27603 09/09/12 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
I was just thinking that he did this epic trip, and the chattering class is going on about green lines...

I agree, as a fellow chattering class participant, our map layer discussion did not belong in this thread, but that's where the initial question was raised and the digression began.

Can't wait to read Steve's TR. Hope he had as much fun as the armchair quarterbacks tracking him.

Re: HST - High Sierra Trail
SierraNevada #27605 09/10/12 01:51 AM
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Oh man! I haven't read any but the last three posts. (I'm a slow reader.) It will take a week or so to put together a decent trip report, but I will get to it. Please be patient.

I hope all who followed along had fun. I'll try to zip off a few observations here to start.

Biggest problem: After the trip, I am hobbling around with one good foot/leg, and one with a deep blister so bad that my entire foot is mildly swollen. It swelled and filled with liquid AFTER I finished Saturday.

Highlight: catching half a dozen voracious 6-7 inch trout in about 5 minutes from the lake east of Pants Pass. They'd hit the yellow/red dot lure before I could start reeling it in! I released all of them because I had miles to go down the trail.

Bad deal: The lake to the west of Pants Pass that some report said was full of huge trout was devoid of any fish! None seen, none rising, no bites. Dang Internet reports mad

Black Kaweah: Some hiker guidebook was too brief, and I didn't do proper research to find the correct approach. So I climbed a Big Dog mountain to a false summit. Took a picture of two guys on the real summit, about a half mile away and 500' above me. Compared to Whitney, it's a Big Dog peak, and Whitney is somewhere between puppy and a Golden Retriever. wink

Forgotten item 1: flat/pita bread. So got some breakfast bagels and English muffins at Wuksachi Lodge. Next time, I'm taking more bagels!

Forgotten item 2: Tent pegs for my 6-Moon-Designs parka tent. (re-seam sealed the parka at last minute, and forgot to grab stakes) Oops!! My 7-y-o wanted to telephone me to tell me, after I was out on the trail. I used big rocks to set it up one night (and it didn't rain). But all the other nights, I either slept out as planned, or inside some hut. wink ...Actually got significant rain only the second day -- I hunkered under the parka and ate lunch.

Fun item: My work associates were watching my progress, and noticed I had turned around at one point. They were very worried, called my wife asking if she'd heard any thing. She looked at the "terrain" version of the map and could see my ascent and descent of Black Kaweah.

Pants Pass: Off trail, steepest crazy ascent and descent (1200') with a 20+ lb pack. It is talus and scree on the west side (tough climbing!). On the east side, consolidated dirt with gravel covering in the gully--sure failure without a rope. But then beside (N of) the gully, I could down-climb the blocks and scree. Lake to lake (west to east) took 4 hours.

Lots of horse manure in the valley east of Pants Pass before the Colby Pass trail. Packers must be overnighting their stock there. I drank from that stream all day, untreated. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Didn't see a soul after the Black Kaweah false summit and reaching Wallace Creek and the JMT. That was a day and a half and lots of miles alone!

Made friends with a lot of good people on the trails. Alice from Alpaugh, Em and Steph from Petaluma and Oakland, Jeremy and Margarita from NM and Tx. 6 guys from Texas.

The 6 from Texas were also planning on climbing over Pants Pass. Took them about 15 minutes to change their minds once they spotted it from Kaweah Gap. They instead took the HST trail all the way through to Mt Whitney.

On Friday, I got almost to Guitar Lake, but wanted to try the north slope of Mt Whitney, so headed up the Arctic Lake drainage. A friend had thought there would definitely be fish in Arctic. Nope, not a sign; murky water with green moss. Tried a few casts, then a quick cleanup swim, and moved on. The north slope if Mt W looks too intimidating to climb. I then pulled out a picture Rick Kent had taken from Russell just before he climbed the slope. I THEN realized: he had climbed with snow on the slope -- so he could use crampons and get good traction. No way I could do it in a late afternoon solo climb on bare rock. I just couldn't see a sure path. So over Whitney-Russell pass I went, down to Iceberg lake. Filled a quart bottle and two quart freezer zip-locks with water, and headed up the MR to the summit. ...wish i could have heard the comments of the 10 or so people watching me from Iceberg. (I didn't have time to head over and talk with them, it was 4:30 pm when I started up.) Lost my light-blue Crock camp-shoe water-crossing shoe on the way up. Offering a reward--I want it back!

Friday night in the hut was great. I was disappointed several finishing the JMT didn't meet me up there. They just weren't sure with the cloudy weather. The hut was about 60 F inside, even without the door!

Ok, enough of the "brief" report. Once I get pictures uploaded and captioned, I'll do a real report.

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