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Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28072 09/26/12 09:10 PM
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> So are you saying that I have a better chance of successfully acclimating at Outpost than Trail Camp? It defies logic in my head, but obviously I will take your guys' word for it.

I am saying that with your short time (~24 hours), you are NOT acclimating at all. To acclimate, people should spend a minimum of 24 hours at moderate (8-10k) elevation, and 48 hours is better ...and THEN hike the trail. With your short time, Diamox will help, and so will the luck of the draw on your genetics. As for the genetics part: You may waltz to 14.5k and be just fine, or only have a light headache and maybe no appetite. Or totally wiped out (puking or dizzy or both) by Trail Crest at 13.5k.

That reminds me: Eat a lot down low, because appetite is the first to go for many, so get it in your belly while you can. The other important item: drink fluids -- water or water with some electrolytes -- often. You probably won't feel thirsty, so consciously drink, so you pee at least once every 2 hours. Dehydration accentuates AMS.

Re: October 10th overnighter
Steve C #28089 09/27/12 09:00 AM
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What Steve said and...

If you take Diamox, it is not a panacea and comes with its own set of problems. When I start it back up after not using it for a while my body does not particular care for it, so I have ease into the standard dose. Taking Diamox is not a guarantee of all symptoms AMS being eliminated. I have sleep deprivation and appetite problems regularly while dosing.

Then there is the wall, in SoCal we get to 11,500' and most who do this trip are from this part of the world. Many start walling at between 11,500' and 12,000' there first time up. I believe this has to do with what elevations you are use to hiking and knowing what to expect when reach an elevation range. I rarely have these types of problems in the Sierra, including first trips of the season.

Re: October 10th overnighter
wbtravis #28126 09/28/12 07:44 AM
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Greetings all, John and Barbara here from Bakersfield. First time posting, some reason I can't get logged in to the WPMB. I thought I'd tell about our hike plans for next week. My second trip this year, been up a couple of times in prior years and on the MWT several times. Barbara has never been all the way so Lord willing this will be the time. We'll spent Wed. night Oct. 3 at the portals. Go to outpost camp for Thursday night. We are extreamly slow hikers, average about 1 mph, Barb has delicate knees, and we are in just above average condition. And we're old 57 & 63. Never been up this time of year so are probably taking too much warm gear.I pack 50+ lbs and Barb about 25. Leave Outpost Friday when the ice melts at stream crossing before Mirror lake, bout 7. then up the steps to trail camp. Outpost to the summit is just too much for us in one day,tried that. leave trail camp about 5 am Sat.(I'm already shivering) plan on 10 to 12 hour to the summit and back. Sat. night at trail camp and back down Sunday am. Don't expect much ice on the switchbacks if the weather continues as forecast. Don't have microspikes but probably would bring if I had them. have a good marmott tent, 20degree northface bags and am buying fleece liners today. wearing poly base layer, 2 mid fleece layers, wind/rain jacket and down coat.Fleece head covering, silk bottoms and pants. gloves. If you're up you'll pass us and we'll move over and say hi. God bless.

Re: October 10th overnighter
John D #28136 09/28/12 09:18 AM
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John, it sounds like a good plan. The only thing I'd mention is that your pack seems quite too heavy.

You have to understand, though, that for this sort of trip, my pack would weigh about 11 lbs (including bear can).

That is a HUGE difference to lug up the hill.

When I've gone through hikers packs in an education program, I often find:

1. old stuff. Like antiquated stoves that are heavy.
2. Duplicates. You don't need changes of clothes. Be a little smelly, live life to the fullest.
You don't need camp shoes. You don't need wading shoes. You don't need shorts. You don't need complete cook kits. You don't need a cup and a glass.
3. inappropriate amounts of things. Ok, bring the hand lotion. Bring a 1/2 oz, not a quart.
4. people tend to bring WAY too much food.

the three worst words are "just in case"

All that said, I'm sure you'll do fine. Have a great trip.

Re: October 10th overnighter
Ken #28138 09/28/12 09:40 AM
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Thanks Ken, indeed yo're right about pack weight. I have good equipment but am taking too much warm stuff "just in case"! And honestly part of it is for exercise. Our hikes are only hours long as opposed to days long so it's not too overwhelming and I'll burn some calories. As I said, I have no experience hiking at freezing temps so don't really know how to plan/expect. So, for instance, I'm taking 2 pair of gloves, 1 lite weight and 1 for very cold. 2 pair of leg long underwear silk and fleece. That's the type of overkill I do.... Suggestions; I'll eagerly accept!!

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28146 09/28/12 01:20 PM
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As the OP I'm glad to see folks chime in with all kinds of info/questions.

Steve C, thanks for the tips about Trail Camp vs Outpost Camp. Well shoot, if I'm not truly acclimating during this trip then I guess I am just going to head for Trail Camp. I am interested in knocking out some miles during the first day so that our second day is a little shorter for the drive back to Vegas (yes, I am sure we'll be sleeping on and off during the drive back through the desert).

Also, my buddy is looking into Diamox so we'll see what he comes up with. If we get some I will definitely do a trial run before the trip.

I also enjoyed reading John D's list of items. I too tend to overpack. However, for this trip I am going with the minimalist approach. Synthetic longjohns top and bottom, REI Endeavor hiking pants (supposedly windproof, rainproof, breathable, etc.), Northface fleece over the base layer, Columbia rainproof winter coat on top. Might bring a vest to put over the base layer to start but I hope that is enough. Also got the Wigwam socks, still need synthetic winter hat and also looking at tactical weather proof shooting gloves.

My tent is a REI Half Dome 2 Plus. 0 degree Northface down bag, thermarest, MSR pocketrocket stove, and of course the bear canister, knife, lighter, medicine, batteries, headlamp, first aid, camera, and the other essentials. The rest will be food and water. I really want a 30 lb pack or less.

The tent reminds me... I am not going to be able to put a stake in the ground to secure it, am I?

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28149 09/28/12 02:27 PM
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Sounds like we have about the same gear except the sleeping bags, mine is a 20 degree, thus the fleece liner;I hope it adds some warmth. The 20 degree bag might be enough on its own, I have never used it at very low temps.
I've been lucky enough to get the same camp site each time at trail camp and staking the tent is no problem. You might not be able to everywhere but there are places you can, if not there are plenty of rocks to tie off to!

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28150 09/28/12 02:30 PM
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Outpost has lots of places to stake a tent. TC has more rock, but you will find dirt too.

30 pounds!!! For a two day trip? I wish I were as good as Ken about 11 lbs with bear canister, but I will probably be under 12 before food.

You might want to consider not carrying water until you move past Trail Camp. You will be within feet of water for most of the way until then.


Re: October 10th overnighter
John D #28151 09/28/12 02:49 PM
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John D,
You have a good tent. You have thermal underwear. You DON'T need the fleece liners inside the sleeping bags! You'll be sweating big time!

Re: October 10th overnighter
Steve C #28153 09/28/12 05:15 PM
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Thanks Steve, I just got the same advice at the outdoor shop. Seems I was taking too much clothing also. Advice well received.
So maybe I will make less than 30 lbs pack weight! Praying the weather holds good. Thank you very much!

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28172 09/29/12 10:02 PM
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trOmbley,

I'm not a big fan of the utilization of Diamox without some history, but that's me.

The REI Endeavors are soft shell pants, which I happen to own. The are water repellent and wind resistant, not waterproof and windproof. Most light softshell pants cut about ~70% of wind and are water repellent when new. I own 3 other pairs, which I use all winter.

I like a couple of pairs of gloves for this trip, especial if it cold and you are wearing your gloves most of the day. They get damp with sweat and lose their warmth when you stop.

You can cut a 1 1/2 lbs. with an Ursack. I own Bearikade but I will use the Ursack in place they are legal...and they are at Mt. Whitney.

Depending on temperature, you may want a closed cell foam mattress in addition to your Therm-a-Rest. I have spend a few night wish I had brought a second pad in the Sierra in the month of October.

Staking your tent should not be a problem. You should be prepared to guy it out. Trail Camp can get awfully windy at times and I have seen tents on this mountain where they were not left a few hours earlier by their owners.

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28225 10/02/12 07:42 PM
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I'll jump in, not because I can add something new because you have plenty of advice. But it's likely we'll cross paths, so here are my plans in case we do.

I'll be camping on the 10th somewhere short of the cables, or possibly at Trail Crest. Wearing my clothes inside my 40 deg sleeping bag, perhaps augmented by a light bivy sack, will do just fine. I anticipate my overnight pack will weigh about 10 lb (less if I leave the single malt and book behind), but I'll add 3 liters of water as I ascend through Trail Camp. Have 1 to 1.5 for dinner and breakfast, carry the remainder to the summit.

We all have stories to tell, and I'm no different. Except mine are mostly older and involve people, stuff, and conditions foreign to most of you. I'm happy to tell you some of mine, but am more interested in listening to yours.

Look for some old guy in a Tilley hat, with brown shirt and a couple of brass accoutrements, looking sort of like a ranger.

Last edited by Bob R; 10/03/12 08:32 AM.
Re: October 10th overnighter
Bob R #28229 10/02/12 09:39 PM
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I've been hoping to run into you on the trail sometime, Bob. I'm glad we will get to see you. I'll be at Outpost on the 10th, Trail Camp on the 11th and then summitting on the 12th if I have acclimatized by then. My sister and I will be hiking together. She has blond hair and I don't have enough hair ;-) What do you expect your schedule to be?

Brent N

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28230 10/02/12 10:43 PM
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Glad to see we are getting a crowd together for the 10th. New plans have been discussed as American Airlines continues to "strike". It has us worried about flight delays and with time being so tight already, we need to adjust.

So on the advice of the board, we're going to try to spend an extra night at the portal campground. Hope to be camping there late Tuesday night (midnight or later as we will still be driving from vegas). Hope the extra time at 8k helps us adjust.

Also, my buddy asked his doc for something to help with ams and they prescribed Albuteral (sp?). Has anybody heard of this treatment? Successes?

Looking ahead at the forecast, I did see something about snow.

Gary in ATL, sorry I haven't called yet... Kids, work, family...you know the drill...

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28231 10/02/12 11:39 PM
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Albuterol. It's an inhaler/drug used to treat asthma.

He should have specifically named Diamox ( Acetazolamide ).


Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28232 10/03/12 06:29 AM
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Bob, thoroughly familiar with that drill. It's cost me 3 different planned trips to the Sierra and/or Death Valley so far this year, most recently last month. I'm available this weekend if you want to hike/chat.

Re: October 10th overnighter
tr0mbley #28233 10/03/12 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: tr0mbley
Also, my buddy asked his doc for something to help with ams and they prescribed Albuteral (sp?). Has anybody heard of this treatment? Successes?

I have never heard of Albuterol to prevent AMS. It has been used to treat HAPE, but that is a different issue. (Other treatments for HAPE include Viagra, etc., which can have useful side effects.)

Diamox, absolutely. You'll find plenty of testimonials on this board and in the literature.

Studies have shown that aspirin taken prophylactically, 325 mg every 4 hours for a total of 3 doses, can prevent the headaches of AMS. Ibuprofen is effective for treatment, 400 to 600 mg, repeated if necessary.

Re: October 10th overnighter
Bob R #28235 10/03/12 08:10 AM
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It could be that East Coast doctors don't deal as much with altitude. It is funny. I went yesterday to pick up my prescription for Diamox, Dexamethasone (sp?) and Zofan, a prescription recommended to me by Peter Hacket at Telluride. When I picked up my prescription the pharmacist asked if I was going hiking because he recognized the combination.

As one who predictably suffers from AMS, I can tell you that Diamox does not fix my problem but it speeds my acclimatization. Even still, on Diamox, I can't go from sea level to 12,000 without puking my guts out at 12,000.

You asked about snow. Dennis Mattinson is a local meteorologist who said that some snow is possible on Monday or Tuesday. I hope not. There is a layer of ice already and new snow would not be compacted enough by Wednesday.

Bob R. You have posted your sub-10 lb pack list before. Has it changed? Would you mind posting again?

Brent N

Re: October 10th overnighter
Brent N #28236 10/03/12 08:28 AM
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Bob R, I found this posting by Steve C not to long ago with your packlist. When temps are expected to drop into the teens, how does your 40 degree bag, polypro base layer and bivy bag hold up to the sub freezing temps?

Here is the text to Bob R's document from this link ( The Ultralight Pack ). Note that if you can download and print Word documents, I recommend Bob's link.

Bob has a second list, The Not-So-Ultralite Pack as well. It's about 5 pounds heavier.

The Ultralight Pack
Updated May 5, 2010
By Bob Rockwell

Here is the list that guides me on Sierra Nevada climbing trips in the summer, and I have it handy every time I pack. I know that there are people who trim the edges off their map, drill holes in their spoon, and take the string off their tea bag; I applaud their philosophy but don't do such things myself.


Carry:                                               lb  oz

Pack, 3200 cu. in. (Blast 32 from ZPacks.com) 0 6.7

Sleeping bag (Marmot Atom 40 degree), with stuffsack 1 3.4
Pad, Cascade Designs NeoAir small, with stuffsack 0 9.5
Heat Sheets Emergency bivy bag, with stuffsack 0 3.6
Ground cloth: black garbage sack with sides split 0 1.9

Down vest (Western Mountaineering Flash) & stuffsack 0 5.5
Light polypro long underwear, top & bottom 1 0.0
DWR wind shirt (GoLite Ether), in Ziplock sack 0 3.4
Light polypro balaclava 0 2.0
Light fleece gloves 0 2.2

Headlamp (Petzl Tikka Plus), with extra batteries 0 3.9
First aid kit, Adventure Ultralite .5
with toothbrush & paste 0 6.8
Toilet paper-8 sheets per day; Wash & Dry-1 per day 0 0.9
Quart Gatorade jug canteen, carried empty 0 1.8
Topo map, whistle, signal mirror, compass,
in Ziplock sack 0 3.6

Base weight: 5 7.2
Food, 1 lb 8 oz per day plus packaging: 4 0

Total for a two-day weekend trip: 9 7.2



Wear:
T-shirt
Fleece shirt
Hiking shorts
Briefs
Tilley hat
Bandanna
Sunglasses
Socks, and VBL
Lightweight Boots
Scree gaiters

Consider also:
Hiking poles
Sunscreen
Mosquito repellent
Ice ax, light
Crampons, aluminum

These weights are as measured on a regulation US Postal Service scale, so differ a little from advertised. The things to wear add another 5 lbs or so that your feet feel. Below them are a few other items that are sometimes needed.

There is no tent. And there is no provision for treating water, because virtually all High Sierra water is perfectly clean.

And no stove and cookset. If you absolutely have to have hot meals, there are plenty of lightweight options out there. For example, the Firelight Esbit Wing Stove weighs only 0.4 oz, and two 0.5 oz fuel tabs will boil a quart of water. Add an aluminum or titanium mug/pot, and your total system weighs in at less than 4 ounces.

On longer trips I take my Six Moons Gatewood cape/tarp combo (12.3 oz), and leave the emergency bivy and GoLite shirt behind. Base weight increases to 5 lb 12.5 oz.

If I have to depend on snow for topping off my canteen, I take a wide-mouth polyethylene canteen instead of the Gatorade jug. It adds 2 oz.

Finally, bear canisters are becoming required in many areas. I have a Bare Boxer Contender, weighing 1 lb 13.9 oz. For more than a few days, you may have to pull a few tricks to make it do.

Unfortunately, I have my weaknesses. Add a couple of sips of brandy per evening out.

Taking all of the above--stove/cookset, cape/tarp, canteen, canister, brandy--and total weight is only 12 pounds for a two-day trip.

The Blast 32 is comfortable up to about 20 pounds, but if need to take any technical gear, goodies to share, etc., you may want a more substantial one. The Mountainsmith Ghost (no longer available) is about the same size as the Blast 32, but with a much more rugged suspension system. It adds 2 lb 3.7 oz. There are, of course, many other choices out there.

Other substitutions are obviously possible, and I do it often. However, I always have the scale handy. I didn't invent the saying, but I do abide by it: "Watch the ounces and the pounds will take care of themselves."

It should be clear that the 25 to 50 lb weekend packs so commonly seen have far more in them than is necessary.

Finally, I'm not at all fanatical about this. But operating from a list like the above is useful for identifying what's truly essential for the trip, and realizing what's just "nice to have along."

Re: October 10th overnighter
Brent N #28237 10/03/12 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: Brent N
It could be that East Coast doctors don't deal as much with altitude. It is funny. I went yesterday to pick up my prescription for Diamox, Dexamethasone (sp?) and Zofan, a prescription recommended to me by Peter Hacket at Telluride. When I picked up my prescription the pharmacist asked if I was going hiking because he recognized the combination.


Brent, you are so right. Diamox hasn't been very hard to get for my wife and daughter, but the two times I've tried to get a tab or two of dex I ran into a brick wall. I explained that it was just precautionary, only to be used in the event of severe AMS at high elevation in a potential life and death situation, and was told absolutely not. Someone else I know who tried the same thing was told by the doc that if a person needed dex to pursue their hobby, they needed to find a new hobby.

No one ever gets a Diamox scrip to climb the molehills here in the east and south, so the doctors don't see much demand. I'm sure it's much more prevalent out west near higher elevations.

By the way, is your son going up with you this time? I felt so bad for him last year when we ran across you on Whitney - so close! There were a lot of kids on the mountain that week with AMS symptoms.

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