Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Grand Canyon, Rim to Rim, Car swap

Hi guys,
This is not a Mt. Whitney question but it's hiking related.

We secured permits for Rim to Rim hike,in the Grand Canyon, May 16-18. We'll start on the North side,
camp for two days in the Canyon then hike out. We'll top out at Bright Angel trail head sometimes on Saturday May 18th, in the afternoon.

Our 7 year old daughter is excited about the hike. Getting back to the North side seems to be a bit of an issue.
The shuttle is 85$ per person and leaves the South side at 1:30 PM.

We were interested to see if anybody will hike the Canyon at about the same time, maybe we can do a car swap.

Are there any other alternatives to the shuttle?


Thanks
Julius

"Are there are any alternatives to the shuttle?"

Basically, only one -- turn around and walk back the way you came!

Have a great hike -- it's a blast. See my own trip report on this board.

I hope there have been previous trial hikes of similar considerable strain. 7 is young for this in my opinion and experience. Possible, of course. Trust but verify.

Edit: Thanks for you reply below. Wow. Simple wow. Have a good time!

She climbed Langley when she was 5, climbed Whitney when she was 6. I posted trip reports on this forum.

Julius, call the shuttle people, and tell them one of the passengers is seven. They might give you a big discount. It would sure be worth a try.

Julius:Try asking on the Grand Canyon Hikers website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grand_Canyon_Hikers

You should have better success, since this is a prime site for GC info.

I have signed on with Julius to do the car swap and hike the opposite direction. I've been wanting to do a R-2-R (Rim-to-Rim) as a day hike for years, but the transportation logistics have always been the biggest hurdle. So it finally dawned on me that THIS is the best opportunity I can get.

Trusting each other driving the other's car for hundreds of miles will be ...interesting.

I'll be reading and re-reading Whitney Fan's trip report carefully.

Steve, looking at Julius' first post, I see he will camping overnight and not doing the R to R as a day hike.

If you are planning a day hike then you'll have at least one extra day before you get to your car.

What are your plans?

(And for the flattery regarding checking out my trip report again. )

Whitney Fan, maybe you (or anyone, please) can direct me to a good resource showing mileage, elevations and water points, plus parking and shuttle options on the South Rim.

Julius & company will hike N-to-S, starting Thurs, and finish Sat. I will day hike the entire distance S-to-N either Thurs or Fri. We'll exchange car keys mid-hike when we meet.

I need info, too: The Kaibab trail appears more direct than Bright Angel, and might offer more picturesque views of the dawn. But I'll be starting out before dawn.... What are the overnight parking options for that trail?

I guess I'll need to dig out the water filter for this trip. Haven't used it in years!

Gmap4 map: South Rim Grand Canyon

Steve,

The South Kaibab trail starts at 7260ft, it is shorter than the Bright Angel by 2.5 miles. There's no water on that trail, so one must carry accordingly. Distance to Bright Angel campground 7.0 Miles, elevation 4780ft.

From what I remember, there's no parking at the trail head, one must leave the car in the parking lot by the road , then take a free shuttle. Service may not start until 7AM.
You can walk from the parking area, I don't know the distance.

The Bright Angel trail head is at 6860 ft, 9.5 miles to the
Bright Angel campground, 3 possible places to get water.

I got this info from the flyer sent to us with our permits.

For us either of the trails would work to go up on. The free park shuttles will take us to our vehicle, we would need to know where it is.


The key exchange on the trail may work however, we should have the spare key with us, in case we miss each other on the trail, or we can leave it at the Phantom Ranch ranger station.


We're planning on doing some side trails to waterfalls during the Friday stay at Phantom Ranch.


Julius

Hi Steve,
Sorry, I cannot help with parking/shuttle service. However, I have done the S to N day hike, and really enjoyed it. I departed on the South Kaibab trail and exited the North Kaibab trail. When I did it my sister dropped us of at the trail head, and drove around to the North side. We stayed the night (after the hike) at the Grand Canyon Lodge. If you can get a reservation you should do it. Magnificant lodge, and not many other choices. The South rim has several hotels/motels nearby. If you stay the night prior to the hike they might even drop you off at the trail head.
If you cannot get a room at the Grand Canyon Lodge you "might" have the energy to drive back to the South Rim, but it is a long drive.
My number one lesson from the hike was learning the importance of fueling the body. I did not take enough to eat, and really had to work hard to hike up the North Kaibab trail. Not like Whitney, where gravity will get you home. I would advise hiking on Friday. That way you would have Saterday to drive Julius's car back to the South Rim. Both of you will likely prefer departing to home from the south Rim.
Just my 2 cents:-)

Enjoy!

Gosh, Steve, I didn't do the South Kaibab Trail, nor did I travel from South to North. Some of your questions can't, therefore, really be answered by me authoritatively. But the answers are out there online -- I could Google, but that would deprive you of the fun! (And you've got the motivation for it.)

That "disclaimer" out of the way, here is what I can input to you.

Some links I found quite helpful:

http://www.grandcanyonlodgenorth.com/ (Grand Canyon Lodge North Rim. Remember -- although this is the only lodging on the rim, per se, there is also lodging (less expensive) about 20 miles north (as mentioned in my trip report).)

http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/lodging-overview-411.html (ALL lodging on the South Rim. Compare rates and other stuff. I'll bet lots of your questions will have answers on this site. For example, the shuttle to the South Kaibab trailhead is mentioned.)

http://www.grand.canyon.national-park.com/map.htm (Scroll a bit down here and there's a nice map of the South Rim.)

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/North_Kaibab_Trail.pdf (North Kaibab Trail description, elevations, water sources, mileages -- don't let the latter trip you up, read carefully).)

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/South_Kaibab_Trail.pdf (South Kaibab Trail -- same type of info as preceding. See! I "cheated" -- I wasn't supposed to give you this! But I knew it was there, identical in format, authorship, and facts to the North Kaibab Trail. Also one for the Bright Angel Trail.)

Immerse yourself in all the above . . . get back to me if still questions. I guess the biggest thing I failed to give you is info about parking for the South Kaibab trailhead. But the answer is out there somewhere. May be there is no lot right there (but there's a shuttle to the trailhead). Plenty of parking elsewhere on the South Rim in connection with all the hotels).

Now (editorial and punditry department) -- although the South Kaibab Trail is shorter it's also (of course) steeper. I saw briefly on the description linked to above that there's, apparently, only one water source on the trail. In contrast, just for you to consider,there are multiple water sources on the Bright Angel Trail. The North Kaibab Trail also has multiple water sources. If you were doing Bright Angel and North Kaibab you absolutely don't need your water filter. And, I dare say, I doubt you need it for the South Kaibab -- there IS one source. Start off with enough water -- do the math and the thinking -- and I'll bet you find you really don't need your filter for this route either.

I was a bit surprised you are going for the south to north route. The North Kaibab Trail is brutal going up -- remember that the North Rim is some 1,500 feet higher than the South. (I posit that you're doing it this way because of Julius' plans?) Much of my own trip report will, as a result, not be as relevant to you -- you're exploring new ground that I didn't!

That's enough fun for one post. But keep asking questions here or via PM if I can help.

I'm so glad you are doing this hike. I expect a trip report the equal of mine when it's over!

Julius, John, Whitney Fan:  Thanks for the input!

Just to make it clear, Julius is leaving my car at the North Rim, and I leave his at the South Rim. We're trading cars in Barstow. I am pretty good at driving after a hike -- mind is racing, body happy to sit for hours So I am going to drive a good distance toward home afterward, stopping wherever I need, to sleep. St George maybe. For that matter, it's a small wagon, and I've slept in back at Horseshoe Meadows parking lot before, and that works, so I could just pull off the road.

I am going to try really hard to get to the Kaibab trail head from the nearest legal long-term parking spot. Hoping to leave the trail an hour before dawn (sunrise@6:21), so not sure what my options will be. Maybe I can arrange an early ride for cash. I'll contact the lodging outfits, too.

I am sure I can carry enough water down the river, since that leg (7 miles, -4800') should take no more than 4 hours. Good to hear I can leave the filter home. John, do you recall what time you started and how long it took? (How many years ago, too )

Edit: Whoa! checking lodging, all rooms are booked for Wed or Thursday nights in that week in May!
... Grand Canyon average temps
... There's a 24-hour taxi service at the S rim: 928-638-2631!

Steve, check this out:

http://www.americansouthwest.net/arizona/grand_canyon/south_kaibab.html

It mentions parking for the South Kaibab Trail "along the highway by the turn-off". I used this parking area last May. It's a turn out almost directly across the hiway from the turn to Yaki Point Road which you would walk to the trailhead. There is room for about 15 cars . It also says it's .5 miles to the trailhead. That sounds about right although it always seems farther especially on the return trip (which you will not be doing). This parking area is right off the main hiway so I expect it is always accessible.

Excellent, Frank! Thank you! I can see it in the crosshairs on this satellite view. Looks like a few car lengths to the east of the actual turnoff.

Note: The map is interactive, so you can zoom in and click/drag it around. Yaki point is a mile north, the trailhead is on the left (west) spur at half a mile.) You can also switch the map type (upper right corner) to "t1 Terrain" for Google's terrain view, or my favorite, "t4 Topo High". Gmap4 is the best!

Hi Steve,
My hike was in early October, 1998. Started at just before sunrise, and reached end of North Kaibab ~ 1 hour after sunset. Time table for Oct., 1998 says only 11.5 hours of sun, so my guess is max time was 14 hours. More likely 13. I did not eat enough (one orange, and one sandwich all day), my nephew was with me (~14 years old) and I ended up having to share my water with him, so finish was painful. Really impresses upon you the importance of fuel and hydration.
My brother, who lives in Phoenix and has done this hike a few times, cautions that the inner gorge can be triple digits in May, so recommends you go early.
Enjoy!
John

Steve, I forgot in my last post to comment about what you found about -- the need to reserve WAY in advance for hotel lodging at either the South or North rims. I'd mentioned that earlier in other posts but wanted to remind you of it again.

What is your situation with that right now? What are your plans for lodging at both rims?

Also, John brought up a good point about the temperature. I focused my hike for the fall and through research learned that I would be "safe" in early October. I never fully researched the spring months. You should -- if you haven't already -- authenticate if the likely temperatures (in the canyon) when you will be going will or will not be a show stopper.

Lodging: South rim -- stealth camp, leave no trace, in after dark, out at 4 AM. North rim -- I'm hitting the road, aiming for St. George. How about brunch in LAS Friday morning?

Food: I called and tried to make a breakfast reservation at Phantom Ranch -- should be there about 9 AM. But they're booked solid, and only serve at 5 and 6:30
So then I called the "Transportation Desk" on S. Rim -- they are the go-to for info on the Phantom Ranch canteen. Get this: They have peanuts, cookies, chips, lemonade and beer. ...beer, but no soft drinks! So what the heck -- I'll have a beer at 9 AM and my own breakfast.

John, your sandwich and apple experience is about what I had on a Langley day hike years ago. Not good! I'll be packing pastries, granola, granola bars, sardines, crackers and candy on this trip.

Whitney Fan: average temps (deg F, low-high) in May: S. Rim 39-70, Phantom Ranch 63-92, N. Rim 34-62

As Alice said, "curioser and curioser".

"Stealth camp" -- meaning just sleeping in your car somewhere? Or finding a hopefully random bush you can crawl behind where no one will bother you? (And I thought I was "cheap" being a Motel 6 guy -- LOL!)

That's on May 15 (Wednesday) if I'm following all this, right? You then do your day hike on the 16th (Thursday) -- with a swap of car keys somewhere in the vicinity of the Colorado River (Phantom Ranch?) -- and drive immediately to St. George for some sleep (still "stealth camping"?!). Then on the 17th (Friday) you mention LAS -- you're flying out of there to get back home?

Comments -- must be high drama planning to arrange when and where you'll meet Julius for the key swap (a CRITICAL action!). St. George -- will your sleeping venue allow you a chance to shower?! If affirmative, and if LAS is a crucial stop (for a flight?), yeah, brunch is a possibility. If affirmative, and if LAS isn't crucial, or is but timing allows, brunch (or whatever) would be even better at my humble abode, and we could finally meet. Let me know more specifically your plans and timing that day. Shoot me a PM and we'll talk this some more.

Yet more comments -- you've got an average high in May (and you'll be right in the middle of May) on the canyon floor of 92. In October, when I did my hike, the comparable temperature is 84. 8 degress higher for you! BUT -- since my hike was on the 3d of the month the average high is probably closer to 90 (almost "halfway" to the September average high of 97) for that specific day. Meaning -- you should be fine, with, like me, no worries about hitting an unbearable temperature condition. (Disclaimer -- Mother Nature can always ignore averages.)

Like the beer for breakfast idea -- especially if it's an IPA!

You should be excited about finally doing this hike -- its a gas.

ERROR ABOVE.

I'm surprised no one apparently noticed that I posted the link to the Bright Angel Trai instead of -- what I'd intended to do -- the South Kaibab Trail.

I've edited the post -- it IS the correct link now, to the South Kaibab Trail.

(Steve, I'll bet you noticed the error but were savvy enough to find the South Kaibab Trail anyway.)

Nothing wrong with car camping, we camped in our 4Runner many times, waiting for day brake to start a hike.

I agree that that key exchange is critical, we do have a hide a key on the 4Runner just in case. It saved my wife a tow bill once or twice.
Steve is not flying home from Vegas.
He's driving from Fresno, we'll meet in Barstow where we'll exchange cars. We're going to take his vehicle to the North Rim and leave it in the hikers parking lot. Hopefully there will be spots available.


Both Steve and the J-gang will leave stuff behind in the vehicles, things that we may not want to take to the bottom and up. Those things can be returned via mail, after the trip , or we can meet in the Sierra a few weeks later.

Always trust a man that likes his IPA in the morning!

Julius

Whitney Fan wrote:
> As Alice said, "curioser and curioser".
Stealth camp, aka Commando camp: quick and light, sleep in the woods, with a bag and mattress only. Walk in after dark, leave before dawn, leave nothing but footprints. I could sleep in J's car, but with any traffic cruising by, it could make for a restless night. If I get there before dark so have time to look around, the hiker parking lots might be isolated enough to sleep inside the car. Again, probably not permitted, but turning in late and getting out early ought to work.

It's not so much "cheap" as much as it is "No room at the inn", and also convenience/proximity to the trail head.

As for St. George and other towns: I'll get a short list of motels, and call and find a room once I get on the road with cell reception. By that time, a shower will be welcome. ;-)

> brunch (or whatever) would be even better
I wrote "LAS" only meaning I'd be coming through Las Vegas. I'll have a huge appetite... so a big meal will be welcome.

The May average high of 92 F doesn't bother me. I'll be hitting the bottom around 9 AM if all goes as planned. I'll be well on my way up the Bright Angel Canyon by noon. And I live in Fresno -- It gets just as hot here.

I didn't notice the different trail link. Got to the right one anyway. I'll study the trail descriptions better when time gets closer. Not worried about the North Kaibab trail ...I hiked it ...39 years ago!!! That trip was also in May: Tried to pack clear to the river, but got a late start, feet were killing me (story of my life--boots didn't fit), so camped along the way. Hiked sans-pack to the river, took a swim, and then hiked out the next day. Say... might have to swim again, before the beer. I do recall the water being icy though.

> must be high drama planning to arrange when and where you'll meet Julius for the key swap
Shouldn't be too bad. They'll be on their first leg, between North Rim and ...maybe Ribbon Falls? The only off-trail detour that I know of is Ribbon Falls, and I hope to do that myself. Otherwise, how could we miss? J has a spare key, and I'll be carrying one, too. So in the odd situation of no meeting, we still have backup keys.

> You should be excited about finally doing this hike -- its a gas.
Definitely am excited. Planning this is a lot of fun.

Julius S wrote:
> We're going to take his vehicle to the North Rim and leave it in the hikers parking lot. Hopefully there will be spots available.
I cannot imagine the parking lot being full. When I called the wilderness ranger today, he said May 15 is the FIRST day the north rim will be open!!!

As for leaving stuff behind: I'm planning on getting one of those flat-rate USPS shipping boxes, and stuffing everything I leave behind in it, so all you need to do is drop it off at any post office.

That IPA might be my first AM beer ever!

Here ya go... the Heart Attack Grill.

Steve&Julius- May 15th is opening day for the N Rim- so the trails and especially the N Rim complex are going to be very, very busy. There will be alot of company on the trails.....
Steve- There is a Hiker shuttle that leaves the Backcountry Office and Bright Angel Lodge at 5,6 and 7am.; and is a direct ride to the S. Kaibab Trailhead. The advantage of this is that Julius (and his 7 yr old daughter) coming out at the BA Trailhead will be closer to his car.(Walking or 2 shuttle stops) The 5 am shuttle puts you at the S. Kaibab Trailhead at 5:30, the river around 9:30 and through "the Box" on the N. Kaibab by 11am. This would be the latest I'ld start; as it puts you on the 5 mile, no shade portion of the N. Kaibab (and the hottest section)in the middle of the day. Good news its relatively flat, so one can make good time from Phantom Ranch/BA Campground to Roaring Springs in under 4-5 hrs. The accumilation of the altitude, heat and desert climate will start taking its toll on the Roaring Springs to Trailhead section- 4000' in 4 miles at 4-8k elevation.
If you want to leave earlier, the two options are: parking at the BA trailhead/Backcountry Office and taking a taxi; or parking at the Parking lot at the picnic area at the road junction to the S. Kaibab/Yaki Point; and adding another 1/2 to 3/4 mile to your walk; and making it a little more challenging to Julius to get his car.
If Julius has to go to this parking lot- he'll take 2 shuttles and over an hour to get to the S Kaibab Trailhead stop, and walk back to his car; provided he is out of the canyon by sunset. Otherwise he'ld need a taxi as well. Julius's daughter will determine how soon they 'top out' (but should plan a late afternoon stop at the ice ream store near the BA trailhead.)

Camping at S Rim that weekend will be challenging. Mather Campground will be full(Check Rec.gov); there may be a chance of a cancelation and get a site as a walk-up. The Forest Service Campground TenX , outside the park; probably will have space- just a little farther from the S. Kaibab Trailhead. There is National Forest just outside the S. Rim Entrance- so 1/4 mile off the road and its the cheapest option.
It would be the same on the N. Rim- "no room in the inn or campground" if you don't have a reservation by now. There is Forest Service land outside the Park near Jacobs Lake Lodge that provides that free camping to rest after your 21 mile walk.
The S. Kaibab vs Bright Angel going north: the elevation change and distance are very close from rim to the river- less than 50 m in elevation. The difference is the 2 mile River Trail walk on the BA to the N. Kaibab; and the S. Kaibab is a direct cross of the river and to Phantom Ranch/BA Campground complex. The BA has water stations at 1 1/2, 3 mile and Indian garden (half way),vs carrying 3-4 liters on the S Kaibab.
One should always have a way to treat water on the N. Kaibab; because: if the water lines are broken, there will be no potable water on the N. Kaibab. The Good news is that the trail parallels the BA creek to Roaring Springs, so the worse case would be needing 4 liters at Roaring Springs to get to the rim if the water at Supai Tunnel is off. There have been the typical line breaks this winter(the line currently has a break between the Box and Ribbon Falls.) The Back Country Office updates the water status on the park website, and you can check once at the park for last minute planning/update.

JAGCHiker: Now I understand the meaning of your initials! Thanks for all the helpful info.

I am hoping to arrive at the S Rim the afternoon before, in time to scope things out. I'll talk with the taxi service that afternoon, and if they sound reliable enough, I'll have them pick me up about 4 AM at the Bright Angel trail head. Otherwise Julius will have to do the shuttle to retrieve his car -- the Wilderness ranger I talked to suggested I park at the Pipe Creek Vista overlook, or near the BA trail head and ride the 5 AM bus. I need to find out whether Sprint cell service works at the S Rim.

Are you saying the North Rim on opening day & day after is really crowded? Must be due to rising temps, so people want to hike before it gets too hot at the bottom. I would have thought it would be less crowded due to the early date.

Thanks on the camping info. You can read my plans a few posts above. I'll try to turn in at 9, get up by 3... I should be ok.

I need to find the link to the water status info. I've been studying this NPS S Rim guide/map carefully, and comparing the the Gmap4 topo/satellite view. I'll have to take printouts.

you both have probably researched your coming adventure.

hiking pete, the fellow that created the hiking video up the main mount whitney trail, also has several of the route(s) you will be taking.

steve: south kaibab, going down

julius: north kaibab, going down

these are real time videos. i think he also has abbreviated versions.

keep your dispatches coming!

Thanks JAGCHiker,

For the J gang getting the car after we top on BA is not a problem. We're planing an alpine start out of the Canyon, to beat the heat and to get on top before dark. Daddy wants to take sunset pictures.
http://jsclimbs.zenfolio.com/p922760692

We have reservations to stay Saturday night at the lodge, wife did all the planning, and got a place to stay early. I can leave the girls at the ice cream place, than take shuttles, or get a ride to our car, wherever it may be.

The little one just needs some motivation to move fast on the trail. Her she is at 6 year old , at 14K. I could barely keep up. http://jsclimbs.zenfolio.com/p650590845/e1896bc92

Tomorrow we're going to do a local training hike.
Holy Jim Trail, on Saddleback Mountain in Orange County.
It's 8 miles one way, 4K elevation gain, steep and hot.
The motivation? She can watch a movie when we get back and have some of mom's Valentine day chocolate.
Daddy will have some ice cold Stone IPA

J

Julius- Can't emphasize enough to remember that to focus on her enjoyment will make or break your walk. I've seen an 18month,3 yr old ejoying the R2R with their dad, and mom and the teenage daughter were ready to just get it over with; largely due to the additional weight they were carrying to compensate for the little ones and dad having a child carrier.

Stop at the bookstore and get the Trailguides for the N.KAIBAB and the Bright Angel. There are a lot of interesting history, geological and wildlife info; so you all can appreciate whats being walked through. There are other books for kids that may be of help to keep her interest.

Phantom Ranch lemonade is a must.

Don't rush, help her focus on the neat things you'll see; keep her eating and drinking fluids regularily to keep her energy level up; take breaks; and remember her body hasn't developed nor does she have the experience to let her (and you) know what is going on her body. Kids tend to go until they drop-they haven't learned how to pace themselves. Pay attention to her, and when you see/hear something that is different than her normal personality- stop and fix it.
Families have a great time when they focus on enjoying the experience; and not being focused on a 'timeline' based on adults priorities.
These tips are for any activity- Whitney included. The big difference is that at Grand Canyon one starts at the summit, walks down to base camp; then walks back to the summit- The reverse of most other hikes; and explains the looks you'll see of hikers going back up on both rims.

Opening weekend is really busy, because of the good temps to hike below the rim in; so there will be alot of company on the trails.

Steve- A couple more 'food for thought' to help getting the most restful sleep prior to your walk with your options: 1) If you want to get out of the car and have fewer/no interuptions- The forest service lands just outside the south entrance is a good option. If you go farther back in, you'll have less traffic noise; a little rise will block the noise/light. After 9pm most of the vehicle traffic leaving or going into the the park is minimal.

If you want to sleep in the car; then you may want to go down to Grand View Trailhead. Its located farther away from East Rim Drive so it will be quieter from vehicle traffic than the S. Kaibab picnic lot option. After dark the only car traffic in the lot would be late exiters(which you can count on one hand and have 2-3 fingers left.) It is about 8 miles further east; and has a section for overnight parking. Downside is a longer drive; upside its a lot quieter.

Bright Angel Trailhead and Backcountry Parking Lot will be the noisest. Shuttle busses run right by them until 10:30ish. And there is a hotel/resturant in close proximity to both; so it wouldn't get 'canyon quiet' until after the bar closes.

The BA trailhead parking AND the S. Kaibab Parking lots probably will have R2R foot and car traffic at all hours.

A note on Stealth Camping inside the park: Camping inside the park, in an area not designated for camping; is not allowed. Is it done? yes.

Car sleepers at trailheads usually are not ticketed; as long as the occupants of the vehicle are quiet and not bringing attention to themselves-noise, items outside the car, etc. The only downside would be if a Ranger patrol spotted a body(You) in a car and did a 'courtesy check' to ensure you weren't dead or in need of medical aid because of finishing a R2R, etc. Grand Canyon annually averages 12 hikers dying below the rim,and 2-3 suicides a year; so this isn't 'Ranger Hasseling'.

Someone who sets up in the pines and isn't taking a break; will more than likely get a ticket for 'camping out of bounds' and then have to move; provided they are seen or brought to the attention of the rangers; ie setting up a tent/bivy/ sleeping bag in close proximity to the S. Kaibab Picnic parking lot that could be seen by a patrol. And this being a busy spring R2R hiker time; there will be more Ranger LE patrols/hiker aid responses to the S. Kaibab trailhead area. (This is why I've been leading you away from this option.Don't need the extra expense of a ticket and losing sleep due to having to get up and move..)

I may want to take an early morning walk that Friday morning; and could save you the taxi fee- More on this option as we get closer to May.

JA: Thanks SO much for the additional info. You can be sure I am reading and re-reading what you've written.

I am trying to get a handle on where there might be an available spot in the National Forest area S of the S entrance. I have the S entrance station on this map in the crosshairs. The traffic circle in Tusayan is about 1.5 mile south. Maybe you can identify where you might suggest for a "legal" bivy spot.

I have a hiker friend who is definitely interested in coming along. He's been on Shasta and Whitney with me several times, and first declined because he's not in shape. But that can be remedied in the next 10 weeks or so.

If we stealth camp, we'd walk far enough away from the road so there wouldn't be any traffic noise, and completely out of sight of any spotlights or whatnot from the paved roads. We're definitely not taking a tent.

I am definitely interested in the early morning option. At this point, I'm planning on hiking on Thursday rather than Friday.

Thanks again!

Steve-I'll wait until "Spring Break" arrives, and then take a drive at sunset to see just how busy and noisy the area is.

It looks like the forest service road is showing up as an improved road... confusing things.
I'll take a look at this and another possible option about 30 seconds away at the other end of town.

JAGCHiker, you said, "Grand Canyon annually averages 12 hikers dying below the rim,and 2-3 suicides a year . . . " .

I recall only one news report last year of a hiker dying below the rim. If an average of 12 a year do that I'd like some credible documentation of it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I'd like some real proof of it!

What was your basis for this? Thanks!

"Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon" by Michael P Ghiglieri and Thomas Meyers; puts out a new edition nearly every year; due to the 'continuing research'; and they(every fatality based on a medical report)are all listed there. Two years ago there were 12 hiker deaths below the rim, and thats subtracting out the suicides and boat trip fatalities. If I remember correctly; there were a total of 19 fatalities; the second worst year since the 1956 Airplane Mid-Air Collision. 2012 Summer was cooler and had a good monsoon season,so there were fewer- dropping below the average. When the rangers and all media concerning hiking at GC don't recommend hiking to the river and back in a day during the summer- theres a reason....Often there is something more flashy in the news than another fatality here; and many simply don't make the press nor are the causes released to the public.

On average, 150-200 life threatening medevacs are conducted here; between June and Sept. 750 hiker assists were conducted in 2012 between May and Sept. An assist is when the hiker requires to be helped to walk or be carried out. Thats 1% of the hikers on the cooridor trails during that time. A study by CJ Malcom, the PSAR (Preventive Search and Rescue) Supervisor; also shows some more intersting #'s: The PSAR Teazm contacted 80k hikers in 2012;and 40% of those were unprepared for the walk/hike they were attempting. Since its inception in 1997; PSAR rangers and volunteers have lowered the life threatening incidents at GC by 40%. This programs success has brought its implementation to other parks- Yosemite, Rocky, Mt. Rainier; to help address the same common cause. Grand Canyon just sees soo many more people in a very special environment, doing the reverse of what they are used to.

CJ Malcom will be happy to discuss any of his findings.

When I open my pack to give food/water/electolytes/etc to a hiker, I tell them "its ok; I don't carry this for me. I carry it for you." I have assisted someone every month of the year; so I simply expect to have a hiker contact on every walk below the rim I go on; and during the summer 80% of them result in a hiker assist. I much rather educate, feed and walk with them -than have me and 8-16 others have to carry them.

Thanks for all the additional information.

I see the publication you reference is readily available for purchase.

I've got two immediate reactions to what you posted.

One, gives me a new sense of pride in having completed my own rim to rim hike in October. Particularly because of what you've said about "hiker assists". Those who read my trip report know about the self doubt experience I faced when my fuel was empty, wondering if I myself might need a "hiker assist".

Two, the overall projection of so much going wrong with so many people here -- it makes me wonder if our Mt. Whitney venue has anywhere near so much going on to match that. My initial impression is, no -- no way. Or is it a case of just as much going wrong on Whitney but not being as publicized? Others want to comment on this?

Steve, I'll bet this information that has been posted ramps up the attraction of your own planned hike, right?!

> it makes me wonder if our Mt. Whitney venue has anywhere near so much going on to match that.

I believe there are serious problems occurring nearly daily on the Mt Whitney Trail. However, since people who get into trouble can turn around and go down to safety, they can often be helped out by their friends. And also, since going down is so much easier, their problems do not get worse as they evacuate.

On the other hand, in Grand Canyon, when someone is in trouble, they need to go up, which is so much more difficult. In addition, the going up is in the second half of their hike, and they are most vulnerable at the very end of the hike.

Due to the differences, I'd say that given the same number of hikers, the problems at Grand Canyon occur more frequently, and are potentially more serious.

> Steve, I'll bet this information that has been posted ramps up the attraction of your own planned hike, right?!

Not sure if you are referring to the dangers and numbers of deaths, or just to the helpful info JA has been serving up. The dangers don't make it more attractive. I just want to experience the fun and beauty of the place. The dangers however will certainly be on our minds as we prepare for and start on our hike.

I was referring to the dangers. Sort of adds to the overall cachet of the hike. Understood that we go for the beauty and other things -- but the sense of adventure is heightened knowing that the whole experience is potentially not a free ride!

Julius and Steve- A note concerning yesterdays action and the misinformation (political positioning?) Concerning the effects on the National Parks that has been in the media.

Grand Canyon planned for this and visitors will see minimal impact. The park is open, all activities are being conducted- ranger talks, campgrounds, hotels,etc.; and the N. Rim should open as planned (weather permitting).
Steve- I'll check the potential campsites in the forest once we start seeing more visitors-spring break. These don't need to be commando- you'll be able to get a good nights sleep....

Thanks, JA. Looking forward to all the info you can serve up.

Thanks to the car swap, we won't be needing to get around this major landslide in northern Arizona:



Here's the AZ DOT page showing it on a map: US 89 - Arizona

To go from S Rim to N Rim (or N to S); one cuts off at Lees Ferry and misses the slide. The slide /closure just makes the Glen Canyon/Lake Powell/Page to Grand Canyon/Flagstaff trip a little longer.

I've hiked the Canyon before and plan to hike N.Rim to S.Rim with my two daughters in Mid-May. We'll probably take the shuttle, though it is definitely expensive for 3 people.

While you are all probably seasoned hikers, it won't hurt to keep these 5 tips in mind: This would be especially true for anyone starting out on the S. Kaibab Trail which is steep and dry:

1. Slow down and take it easy during your descent -- even if you feel great and full of energy. Otherwise you may "kill" your knees on the way down and really regret it on the way back up. I learned this from my first Canyon experience hiking down to the Havasupai Reservation more than 30 years ago.

2. Drink your water as you go. Don't hoard it! It gets hotter and hotter as you descend and because the air is so dry, you don't realize how much water you are losing from sweating. Dehydration brings disorientation. I learned this lesson on a solo hike down the S. Kaibab Trail, across to Indian Gardens on the Tonto Trail, and back up the Bright Angel Trail. Fortunately, I found a spring and some bushes with shade near the Tonto Trail to re-hydrate. Incidentally, I don't recommend the Tonto Trail for anyone with a fear of heights or vertigo. It gets very narrow at some points (unless they've improved it since I was there).

3. Watch where you put your hands and feet. This will help you avoid stumbles and snakebites. I've seen a lot of rattlesnakes in Arizona, but they mind their own business and only strike when they are startled or feel threatened. I've never seen them in the Canyon but they are certainly there.

4. If you take aspirin, it makes more sense to take it just before you start out -- before you get sore. Aspirin is anti-inflammatory and will help to prevent soreness. Also soaking your sore and tired feet in cool or cold water not only feels good, it helps reduce swelling and inflammation. You'll find a nice, cool stream at Phantom Ranch.

5. Take a walking stick! You won't find one in the Canyon, and that "third leg" will help you avoid falls and will let your arms give your legs a boost on the way back up.

I hope you have a wonderful trip and hike!

Dan

I did a loop hike a year ago January with 3 friends. We descended the South Rim via the S. Kaibab and returned via the Bright Angel. Here's a public link to my FB pics - the captions have logistical info as well.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=...mp;l=477d716e80

Buses run very early (at least by 6) but that can be verified by their GCNP website, or by a call to them. We left our vehicle at the main VC about 6 (just missed the previous bus) but caught the next one. There appeared to be some limited parking at the S. Kaibab TH itself. On the return, we caught a bus not far from the Bright Angel TH over to the main VC and got our vehicle.

We took 2 liters down, but could have easily done with one. Before re-crossing the Colorado (near the kiosk in one of the pictures) was potable water. There was also potable water at Indian Springs. The Backcountry Visitor Center (it's a separate building) can give you exact status of the water sources.

In terms of the north rim - there was a highway failure in the north - near Paige - but I have no idea what - if any impact - the failure will have on rim-to-rim shuttles.

Hope this helps.

AZ Dan, thanks for the tips. I plan to take TWO walking sticks -- a pair if Leiki carbon fiber poles. I plan on starting before 5 AM, drinking as much water as I can before heading down, and carrying two liters on the way down. I'm expecting it will take about 4 hours to reach the river. Does that sound realistic?

KevinR, great pictures. I hope others can see them on the Facebook page. I'm really looking forward to seeing the views.

I can see now why one liter of water was all you needed...

It took us 3:30 to the river, and we took lots of pictures. We were in no particular rush - we were veterans of high dessert hiking, and were acclimated to that climate. However, one of members became ill about a mile from Phantom Ranch, and assisting him to the ranch added at least 30 minutes, perhaps longer.

One thing that can add time is how many pack trains you run into. They weren't too much of an issue in late January, but you might see more of them. You have to find a cubby and wait for them to pass.

Great advice Dan,
I will have to get the Little one to slow down on the way to the bottom. She usually trucks down hill pretty fast.
We don't want to have any issues once we get there.

We used trekking poles for many years, endured many comments early on before the were popular, like "where's the skis"? Now that I carry a DSLR and constantly take pictures, I find that the poles get in the way. I may have my wife take a set and share when necessary.

My daughter would love to see a rattle snake, we'll be careful.
If you're hiking the RTR May 16-18 stop us and say hello. we'll be the group with a 7 year old, hard to miss.
Julius

Steve-
1) Place to stay-As you pass through the northern traffic loop, you head up a rise. At the top you'll see a left turn lane to N. Long Jim Loop. Turn left and you are now in US Forest land. Follow the dirt road and it will drop down the ridge into a low land. The map shows the left turn, and when it turns left to the south, you're at the spot mentioned above. Great sites on both sides of the road- no car traffic noise or town lights.No need to sleep on the ground- a cot will make it comfortable. I have one if wanted.
2) The staff at the entrance station can help you get your own Senior Pass. Just show your Drivers License and $10.- as you know.
3)I'm thinking that the side road south of the train tracks would be a great place to pick you up, and for Julius to find his car; once his walk is done. That way he can hit the ice crean store, go check in, and then get the car/luggage. The building is the old power station, and directly across from the Bright Angel Lodge and stairway.
4) I'm working Thursday, so I can give you a lift to the trail head, but won't be able to take a morning walk with you. We can set a time for me to pick you up, etc. in the upcoming weeks.

JA: Thanks so much for the pointers. I have located the overnight spot you described on the aerial satellite map. (map link) (note the cross-hairs dead center).

BTW, check out this satellite view (close to my overnight spot).  I've never seen an airplane sitting on the ground in the middle of the forest before.

As for parking Thursday morning, I believe you are referring to a strip of parking along Village Loop Drive, just after it crosses both sections of railroad. (map link) Please check the map to make sure I am on the right "track". Edit: Here is the spot I'll try to use.

You wrote:
> The building is the old power station, and directly across from the Bright Angel Lodge and stairway.
Not sure what building you are writing about, or what its purpose is.

I'll definitely appreciate the lift! I'll email you about a week before the trip.

Steve- you are in the right area. Depending on how many campers could also be there- lots of good spots along thar road. Not sure about the plane- A plane did go down in that area over 10 yrs ago- maybe it was too expensive to remove?

I put the cursor on 36.055978,-112.140733 for the ideal spot on the access road. The shadow crossing the road, is from the old power building. You can see the stairs just north of the tracks coming down from the road in front of the BA parking lot. The southern side of the road is a parking area- you can see several cars parked- so that morning we'll just find a spot thats open- and then relay it to Julius when you see him somewhere on the N. Kaibab.

Ok, now I have the parking spot, north side of the old power station, down the stairs and across the tracks from the Bright Angel Lodge. Best spot would be in the shadow of the building, since it would be shady part of the day.

As for my "BTW" plane comment, the satellite image actually caught that plane in flight. It was flying, so that explains its blurryness in the picture. Looking at it again, we can see the windows only on one side, meaning the plane was banking in a turn. It must have been on final approach to the Grand Canyon Airport, which is about two miles SW.

Steve -

On Monday I did the loop hike (S. Kaibab to river, return via Bright Angel), and conditions were great. Temps on the South Rim reach 70F, and temps near the river about 10 degrees higher. Spring has sprung, and lots of plants and bushes are in bloom, and wildlife is in abundance. Saw many elk and mule deer within a mile or so of the rim, and was thrilled to see a pair of CA condors soaring as I climbed up the canyon from the river. I posted a couple of photos on my FB timeline, but don't know how to link to them from this BB. Several potable water sources on the Bright Angel. It was a great hike - the S. Kaibab is on my short list of "Best Hikes of All Time". I don't think I'd want to attempt this loop much later in the year, at least as a dayhike. I found that I'd "lost" much of my acclimatization to high desert hiking I acquired from living seven years in Inyokern once I'd returned to New England during the past year and spent the winter hiking in NH's White Mtn NF.

Kevin

Here are your two condor pics from Facebook. Nice!

A friend and I did this trip a few years back. The shuttle ride was long (especially after driving from LA earlier in the day). The hike down from the North Rim is beautiful, but seems to go on forever. The signage is very poor so you have no idea how close you are to the bottom. I don't know what time of the year you were planning on doing this, we did it at the end of May and it was 126 degrees down at Phantom Ranch. Needless to say, we spent most of our rest day sitting in a shady part of the river relaxing. Just get an early start (like 5am) for your hike back up to the South Rim.

Rim to Rim to Rim avoids a car swap. Not everyone's cup of tea though...................................DUG

I'm doing a hike Friday to get ready. SPOT is coming along.

Steve should be past Vernal on the way home, having bagged HD.

What is wrong with this picture?

Nothing wrong with the picture, but the label "Vernal Falls" should be in the singular. Oh yeah its also placed at Nevada Fall.

Got it!

SteveC should be in the Volt, headed Ohmward, with minimal resistance...

Made it home. Hardest part was driving home on 4 hours sleep.

I did a two-fer today: Clouds Rest, then Half Dome. Once my bones recover, I'll be ready for the R-2-R on Thursday.

"Ohmward." I like it.

Watt a trip.

Committing battery on your bones? Bet that Hertz. Actually, following Spot, I could see that you took a lot of XC short circuits.

Have you driven a Chevy Volt? Joule like it, currently the best automotive technology out there. I think you can rent one at Hertz.

I amp retty sure Tesla has it beat.

> I amp retty sure Tesla has it beat.

I get a big charge out of driving the Volt. ...and it beats Tesla any time you need to go over 300 miles.

How about EV miles to EV miles? Siemens to me a better comparison.

I amp not able to invent terms like wagga and salty; it hertz my feeble brain.

Plainly speaking, a Tesla will out run a Volt any time on battery only -- Tesla doesn't have the 200 lb ICE in its "frunk" as excess baggage to haul around.

But nobody driving a Volt suffers from Range Anxiety. Running a battery dead will "flatbed" a Tesla. Not a Volt, it just turns into a hybrid. It's the only dual-mode vehicle on the road.

Now back to regular programming... I'm 48 hours away from the start of the Rim-to-Rim adventure. Taking the older conventional car for that trip.

Steve, have a great time on your r to r -- you'll love it! Already looking forward to your tr . . .

We're ready to cross the big hole.

Wife and daughter in great shape,and spirit. I'm recovering from a sailing incident. Twisted my left knee pretty good, but feeling better day bay day.
Tomorrows drive will help as I can stay off my feet for 8-9 hours.

Looking forward to meet Steve in Barstow for the car exchange. It saves us both money and time, not having to deal with the shuttle.

I'm sad I can't take my DSLR to one of the premier photography places in the world, but I have to cut weight as much as possible.Maybe next time...
We'll post a TR and pictures when we get back.

Julius

Good luck to all of you. Watch out for Internet psychos, though.

I'm also loaded, ready to roll. Looking forward to this!

If anyone wants to come along in virtual space, here are two links:

Spot shared page     Spotwalla trip map

I won't start sending spot signals until I start the hike on Thursday.

Best way to see the terrain on the Spot map is to use the "Terrain" or "Hybrid" options (upper right corner of the map page)

Internet Wackos? Where?!!!

Internet Wackos? Where?!!!

Remember meeting up with SaltyDog?

SteveC appears to have completed the journey in around 15 hours.

steve,

congratulations on conquering the canyon.

i'm certain you have many stories to tell.

the temp at phantom ranch when you went through @ 0840 was 75. it was in the 90s there from 1050 to 1925 - hitting 99 @ 1530.

whew.

congrats again on defeating one of america's toughest dayhikes!

Most Excellent. 14 hrs & 2 minutes, inculding a side trip. Tracking spots very consitently placed. You're a machine.
Looking for the TR now.

Made it home at 4 PM Friday. Drove 4 hours last night, and 8 today. Two days driving and one day hiking... No wonder I don't do that very often. In fact, it was 39 years ago that I last hiked to the Colorado and back!

Some of the memorable part is all the various people I met on the trail. The R-2-R is a destination for trail (ultra)runners and marathoners. A group of 5 or 6 runners passed me in the morning, and of course I never saw them again.

While having my first ever morning beer at the Phantom Ranch Canteen, two women in their upper 20s, and a mom (mother-daughter marathon team) showed up. Mom was ready to head back to south rim, but the two gals were heading to the N Rim to spend the night, ....and do a return R-2-R today! Of course I never saw them again either.

By the way, heading up the north side, I puzzled at my headache. Then it dawned on me: a morning beer doesn't sit well with hiking. Ibuprofen and several hours later, I was fine.

As the third hike in two weeks, I again met several Germans. They travel the world to hike!

I met Julius and his family in the perfect spot to exchange keys:  Ribbon Falls.  I spent a longer time on the trail than the others for several reasons:  taking pictures, drinking a beer, talking with hikers, chilling at Ribbon Falls.  But it all added to the enjoyment.

I was one of the first hikers to start in the morning, but I am sure I was the last to finish. But then all the others were repeaters, so were doing it just to get it done. This was my first and probably only time.

Another thought: It is remarkable how many women are on the trail. Groups of only women, mixed groups. Impressed that several were obviously the group's leader, in charge of seeing that all was well with their group. Good to see.

And one more: Met quite a few backpackers coming down from the N. Rim. So many carrying huge packs! With such warm dry weather, seems like going tentless, and with maybe a one-pound bag would sure make their climb out easier. The sites at Cottonwood campground were without shade. Whew, not pretty!

Beer! Breakfast Of Champions!

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Pictures, pictures, pictures! More words, more words, more words!

Congratulations, Steve -- sorry again we couldn't hook up here in fabulous Las Vegas. I appreciate your understanding, again. I'm in a pretty frenetic period right now ensuring a very bad cold is out of my system while I concurrently attend to many details in preparation for an 18 day Alaska jaunt this next week.

I share your reflection regarding how neat it is with respect to all the cool people you meet on this (or any other) hike.

Now -- besides all the nitty gritty details of your hike -- did it stack up as far as your expectations? Would you agree it's an iconic hike? How did that climb up the North Kaibab Trail go -- with ease or did you find that it did have some taxing aspects to it? Did you have any chance to look out over the canyon by the Grand Canyon Lodge at the rim, per se? (Or find you had to high tail it to sleep in St. George pretty quickly?) What about that beer? Was it -- my choice -- an IPA?!

Anxious to hear more about it all!

You guys want it all so soon! I am uploading pics tonight. This afternoon, I was in the local hardware store buying a new latch for a shower door, when Julius called. They had made it out to the South Rim in good shape. Lucky people get to spend a night there.

Way to go Steve - you definitely motored through it. Looking forward to the pics. I've hiked in the park a few times but R2R and Havasupai are still on my bucket list.

I read an article a few years ago about a GCNP ranger who lived on one rim but worked on the other. He regularly speed-hiked to work and back across the canyon several times a week. As I recall, the NPS made some concessions to his schedule so he didn't have to do it daily, but the guy seemed to really enjoy it. Imagine.

Congrats again!

Hey guys,
we made it back home Sunday 4PM.
It was one of our best hikes, no issues whatsoever, even the weather cooperated, low 90 with cloud cover the last 2 days.
The little one did an amazing job! Before the trip I told her that she has 7 complaints / whines that she can use on the hike.
She decided to bank them all for a later date to be determined, she said.
Downloading pictures and video in the next few days.
TR coming soon.
Thanks to Steve and JAGCHiker for working together to leave the car close to the trail head.
Julius

I have uploaded about 75 of the best pictures from my hike, along with captions. I still plan on writing a report, but you can view the pics now if you like:

Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim 5-16-2013

Two pictures:

Car Swap



Key Swap:


Edit: Julius has posted a trip report here -- Grand Canyon Rim to Rim

Your great pics and the captions make a good trip report. Looks like a good time was had by all.

Whitney Fan had a question on the #'s of hiker incidents at Grand Canyon. Backpacker Magazine has an article "6 Most Dangerous Parks." Guess which one was #1..
Heres a quote:
"it should come as no surprise that it(Grand Canyon) saw 348 SAR missions in 2012. The park also had the highest death toll of any park that year, claiming 21 lives.
Last month they had 3 in 4 weeks; and its not hot yet...(Why I am going to Mt. Whitney in June.)

It is easy to walk downhill into a warm day. But it can be hellacious to try to climb UP while it is hotter. 348 SAR events in one year is huge! Wow!

Those facts just boost my ego at having done the rim to rim! (As I'm sure it does for you too, Steve.) It was truly a special experience . . . and the beauty of times like that is that they live on forever in your memory, become part of you.

How difficult is it to get the necessary permits for rim to rim to rim? I know accommodations require months and months of advanced reservations

Marty: No permit is required to day hike R2R. But arranging the car shuttle or transportation can be tricky. I got lucky, and shared with Julius S on this one -- Julius and Co. got their permit over 6 months in advance, since they stayed overnight near the north rim, then two nights near Phantom Ranch in the canyon, and then another motel night on the S Rim.

I myself just traded cars with them, spent a night in a National Forest site before the hike, hiked across and then drove almost to Las Vegas and spent a night in a motel in Mesquite, NV afterward.

Read this entire thread. It was a really unique experience for me.

Hi Whitney Fan,

You said the Rim to Rim was harder than Whitney. Are you talking about Whitney as a day hike? I ask because I did the Rim to Rim as a day hike last month at the GC and am shocked to hear that Whitney as a day hike is easier. I'm doing it 7/2 and am nervous. If you did the Rim to Rim as a day hike I'll relax a bit. Did you?

Thanks, Sara

Hi Sara,

I have also done both as day hikes, and will make the following observations:
- Altitude at Whitney is a big factor. You will "labor" more on Whitney due to shortness of breath. Please take note of all the advice to schedule enough time to acclimate. Spend at least two days above 10,000' (Horseshoe Meadows is a good location - Lots of shorter hikes to enjoy while adjusting to the altitude). I often stay at Mammoth Lakes for three days, doing easy hikes above 10,000' prior to attempting Whitney (or other 14K' peak).
- R2R is difficult due to uphill finish, after a long day.
- Preparation is a BIG factor. If you've prepared properly either can be enjoyed Without proper preperation either can be very painful

My guess is that you will have no problem, provided you maintain your fitness level, and allow for acclimatization.

Please post a trip report after you hike. Let us know what you think, and how you would compare them.

Enjoy!

John

Sara- Timing and planning makes a difference. Since the N. Rim of Grand Canyon is still closed; I'm guessing your R2R was a walk to the River and back from the South Rim- an 18 mile walk if gone down to Phantom Ranch and back- in very mild weather (the inner canyon at below 80 degrees).
The R2Rs mentioned here include the N Rim-1000' higher; and 21 miles from Rim to Rim. Steve's walk had mild weather-making it comfortable. Its still doing the last 4 miles UP 4000'; where the S Rim R2R is 3000' in 3 miles at lesser altitude, and shorter distance.

I'm not dismissing your walk; just pointing out differences so you can compare walks and degree of challenge. I often do the walk at this time because the weather and spring blooms in the canyon make it a nice day hike...

Sara, I did both rim to rim AND Whitney as day hikes.

As you read, I found the rim to rim hike a real test -- and for me, harder than Whitney.

The reality regarding which hike is harder may not match my observation. (And I'm not implying that the reality is that Whitney is harder. That reality is, to my guess, unknown. I.e., I don't know of any concensus opinion regarding which is the harder. I don't know of any survey/poll conducted amongst many joint rim to rim/Whitney day hike veterans.)

Bear in mind that my opinion may have been influenced by both my older age in doing rim to rim (66 vs. 59) as well as arguably poor hike management doing rim to rim (not enough or/and long "breaks" during my descent before hiking uphill, as well as not enough fuel or liquid intake before the climb up).

Welcome to this forum! Please post again or PM me if you have any further questions.

Thanks Steve...I'll check out the thread.