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Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
#3074 03/18/10 10:12 PM
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I notice that all of the winter hikes/posts are from the Mountaineer's Route. Is the Main Trail not accessible in Winter? (The cables snowed in?) I have not hiked the Main Trail to to the top, so I may be asking an obvious question for anyone who has....

B


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Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3075 03/18/10 10:28 PM
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There is a period of time, when the snow has accumulated, but has not consolidated, when going up the main trail is just a slog, even with snowshoes. Until they melt out, the switchbacks are not really usable, they are filled with ice. So, one has to go up the snow slope, which until it consolidates, can be a chest high slog. Basically this is not a trip that anyone would define as remotely fun. It would take many days to do. So, there is often a month or three when no one goes up. Because it is about twice as steep (on average), and much of it south facing, the MR consolidates faster, so it a better route.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3076 03/18/10 10:42 PM
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Thanks, Ken. "Consolidation" only takes place when there is a melting of the snow = compacting? Does this mean that areas in other parts of the country (Colorado) where there is not a high enough temp for melting until late in the season, the snow does not consolidate (thus, remains unmanageable for long periods of time?)

B


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Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3077 03/18/10 11:18 PM
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Ken says it is "a slog". I'd say it is almost humanly impossible. If a group had a number of days, with more than two or three individuals to take turns breaking trail, then they might succeed. But it still wouldn't be any fun.

As for consolidating, I think snow settles some even without melting -- the air spaces can compress some, but only to a point. In the White Mountains Sunday and Monday, there was a north-facing slope that had obviously not seen any temps above freezing for several months. Stepping off a sled, we'd sink up to our hips. Trying to pack a trail took a huge amount of energy. We could compact the snow a bit, maybe 18 inches.

But in the worst places, the snow would NOT consolidate. There were several times that I'd try to get solid footing, but placing my feet side-by-side and alternate weighting and unloading each foot, the snow was like quick-sand. It just gave way under the weighted foot, only to spring back when the other foot weighted the adjacent area. Cold sugar-crystal snow would be impossible for foot travel.

The Mountaineers Route is so much shorter, so each step breaking trail is three times as effective as a step on the Main Trail route. And then, with so many people going that route, there is already a boot track to follow. Much nicer!

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3079 03/19/10 08:17 AM
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I've snowshoed to Trail Camp a bunch and it all depends on which winter you are talking about. We had a MMWT to the summit trip planned in January but canceled the summit as the destination after it snowed for the first time that winter a few day before the trip.

I have never planned an attempt on the summit in the dead of winter with snow about.

I will say, the most fun I've had in this area is in the winter and the furthest have gotten is Trail Camp. The MMWT in winter is a heck of a good time...more fun than summitting in prime time.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3083 03/19/10 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bee
Thanks, Ken. "Consolidation" only takes place when there is a melting of the snow = compacting? Does this mean that areas in other parts of the country (Colorado) where there is not a high enough temp for melting until late in the season, the snow does not consolidate (thus, remains unmanageable for long periods of time?)

B


Ah, Consolidation is a very complex process, that I don't begin to understand well. Melting is potentially a part of the process, and it certainly is on the MMWT, where the daytime temps are so moderate. There is also sublimation, which is significant enough that the weather folks track it. Interesting to see how it varies, and temp varies in these time lapse records:

http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/index.htm...y=1&units=e

In early Dec, the Sierra Snowpack averaged around 20 degrees. Now, it averages somewhere around 30 degrees (with local variation). It's heating up!

There are two primary sources of heat: solar radiation, which you know is present even on cloudy days, if you forget your sunscreen. Also, heat from the earth. Unless you are in a permafrost area, there is constant heat movement from the bottom of the snowpack. In addition, the snow surface changes. It falls white, but gets progressively dirtier, which absorbs more radiation, and then there are sastrugi, which apparently are part of all this, but which I don't particularly understand (local shadows reducing albedo?) Or, here is more than I want to know:

http://netfam.fmi.fi/SSS/pdf/Vihma.pdf

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3085 03/19/10 10:23 AM
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I once climbed Muir in January. We parked at the "Road Closed" sign and skied almost to Trail Camp the first day. It snowed 6" - 12" that night, so the slog up the slope to the right of the switchbacks was brutal. My partner turned around, and I tagged Muir (with 12" of fresh snow on it) by myself. We skied out that afternoon, reaching our truck in the moonlight.

We had originally planned to climb Whitney, so we came back in early March to finish the job. We more-or-less followed the trail except for bypassing the switchbacks, camping one night at Trail Camp. We skied from the summit to the "Road Closed" sign, but the heavy packs and breakable crust made for an unpleasant ski.

I also did a solo winter climb on Russell in mid March (a different year). I brought snowshoes and never used them.

Last year, I did Whitney, Muir, and Russell as a three-day trip in late April. I didn't bring snowshoes or skis. There were times when they would have been useful, but they wouldn't have been worth the weight.

If I were doing Whitney again in early season, I would take the MR.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3086 03/19/10 10:35 AM
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Need to post these definitions:

Albedo: A number indicating how strongly the snow reflects light. (from Wikipedia)

Sastrugi or zastrugi are sharp irregular grooves or ridges formed on a snow surface by wind erosion and deposition (from Wikipedia)

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3087 03/19/10 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Need to post these definitions:

Albedo: A number indicating how strongly the snow reflects light. (from Wikipedia)

Sastrugi or zastrugi are sharp irregular grooves or ridges formed on a snow surface by wind erosion and deposition (from Wikipedia)



Aw, heck! That takes all the mystery out of it! smile

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3089 03/19/10 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C


Sastrugi or zastrugi



Literally translates to "crap you have to walk on".


Mike
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Mike Condron #3091 03/19/10 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike Condron
Originally Posted By: Steve C


Sastrugi or zastrugi



Literally translates to "crap you have to walk on".

Time to start a new thread to collect items for the Glossary.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3107 03/20/10 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ken


Ah, Consolidation is a very complex process, that I don't begin to understand well.


Errr...I can see that there is a whole lot more involved in the consolidation process than I ever hoped...

Another question: Can you give me a general summary as to what will happen to the conditions of the snow/trail between now and the time when just a few patches remain? I have no experience with winter hiking/conditions and I am sort of taking it all in vicariously. If there was no new snow, would the melting and freezing turn the trail into an ice block until the final melting? Would there be layers of new snow set on top of slippery ice? Are avalanche conditions set up when new snow falls on iced up areas?

Sorry for the ton of questions....

B


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3108 03/20/10 05:45 AM
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Bee, do you mean like this? The switchbacks in 1962 before the cables were installed, then opposite view post-cables. Talk about a scary prospect . . .





Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bulldog34 #3110 03/20/10 08:01 AM
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Doggie, that looks downright deathly!!! Thank you for posting this pic! (I thought the cables had been up since....the mountain was made!)(wasn't the mountain made some time in the '60's??)

B


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3113 03/20/10 10:50 AM
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"Another question: Can you give me a general summary as to what will happen to the conditions of the snow/trail between now and the time when just a few patches remain?"

The snow will slowly compact and go to a higher water concentration....meaning that it starts to act more like ice, than like snow. The south-facing aspects will go through this faster, then actually melt out first, due to the greater energy going into melting. Also, those areas surrounded by rock will melt faster, as the rock warms up, then continues to release heat later into the evening. Probably the worst place on the trail is at the Cables, where it is north-facing, and quite shielded from sunlight. Water drips down from above, and freezes into ice at night. Probably about the last ice to disappear from the mountain.

"If there was no new snow, would the melting and freezing turn the trail into an ice block until the final melting?"

Pretty much.

"Would there be layers of new snow set on top of slippery ice?"

As the layers melt and refreeze, they bond together. Right after a snowfall, though, your description is correct.

"Are avalanche conditions set up when new snow falls on iced up areas?"

Yes.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3118 03/20/10 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bee
Doggie, that looks downright deathly!!! Thank you for posting this pic! (I thought the cables had been up since....the mountain was made!)(wasn't the mountain made some time in the '60's??)

B


I'd love to take credit for courageously snapping it, but it's straight from Wiki. Besides, I hadn't been born yet in 1962! Well, not for very long, anyway. OK, "long" is a relative word in this sense.

Seeing that stretch without the cables scares the crap outta me. I don't particularly like it even with them. Makes me appreciate even more what Marsh dealt with in those dozens of trips up and down to build the hut 100 years ago. Oh yeah, and building the trail . . .

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bulldog34 #3124 03/20/10 07:08 PM
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Just a note about the "cables" stretch. That section is relatively new. Built in the 60's? 70's?

The original trail went, I think, up to Whitney Pass, to the left of the current switchbacks, then along the crest.

That was replaced by the trail that was sited going up the slope to the right of the current switchbacks.

This was replaced by the final, current route.

Remnants of both of the older trails are still up there and visible.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bulldog34 #3129 03/20/10 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
Bee, do you mean like this? The switchbacks in 1962 before the cables were installed, then opposite view post-cables. Talk about a scary prospect . . .


Damn Bulldog, that really is a hard one.

Seriously, the cable area has ice on on it all year and you can get into trouble if you are daydreaming on between mile ~13 and 14. I've slipped once or twice in the summer going through that section.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3131 03/20/10 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Just a note about the "cables" stretch. That section is relatively new. Built in the 60's? 70's?

The original trail went, I think, up to Whitney Pass, to the left of the current switchbacks, then along the crest.

That was replaced by the trail that was sited going up the slope to the right of the current switchbacks.

This was replaced by the final, current route.

Remnants of both of the older trails are still up there and visible.


Why did they keep rebuilding it in different places?

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Joel M. Baldwin #3133 03/20/10 10:13 PM
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> Why did they keep rebuilding it in different places?

I am pretty sure they re-routed the trail to the earliest-melting zones on that slope.

Look at the picture below created by Bob R, a composite of 4 photos taken from Wotans Throne. From 2009-06-23 Wotans Throne (picture #30 in the set)

Near the top, you can see the old trail coming up and to the left from the major snow field. That trail would not completely melt out until late in summer. Note that the switchbacks now stay pretty much in the already-melted areas.

Click here to see the full-size picture.




Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3134 03/20/10 10:31 PM
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And here is Wayne Pyle's annotated picture of the switchbacks, from this post.

Click here to see the full version.

You can see the old trail about switcher 20, rejoining at 90. And more abandoned trail pieces at 92 & 94.


Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3135 03/20/10 10:59 PM
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1. Are those glissade "trails" down the side of the ledge from the top? (in Bob's picture) If so, please comment on the practice from this location.

2. Changing the trail to accomodate melting patterns -- was such a luxury a sign of the times or would such an undertaking be considered today?

Again, sorry if these questions have all been answered before; the effort of doing a search for every question I have would be a monumental task.(do to the hit and miss luck that I have with the WPSMB search engine....or my choice of search words)(feel free to direct me if there does exist good existing material on the past threads)

B


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
wbtravis #3138 03/21/10 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Damn Bulldog, that really is a hard one.

Seriously, the cable area has ice on on it all year and you can get into trouble if you are daydreaming on between mile ~13 and 14. I've slipped once or twice in the summer going through that section.


Amen brother. There was still enough ice to be cautious about in late August last year when I was introduced to it.

And Bee, regarding the switchback topo map prepared by Wayne Pyle, I heartily recommend it for a first time ascent. Not only is it quite accurate, but it helps alleviate some of the boredom that comes with that many switcheroos. It's in Excel format and easily printable to one (light) page. Same link as Steve indicated above.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3140 03/21/10 08:25 AM
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Bee,

I started doing this stuff mid in life and I am a bit more cautious than most because of it. This goes a long way to explain why I did not do the spring ascent I've wanted to do a long time until I had 4 years of experience using axe and crampons.

1. Tracks...In May 2007 the glissade was trackless. We came back at about 2 PM and went down the slope until escaped the shade, then glissaded for about 800 vertical feet. The most times a track is used the slicker it is...and the less control you have.

2. Luxury...I don't know. I guess it depends what is the budget. They moved New Army Pass trail over about 5' to 10' through Horseshoe Meadow a few years ago. That seemed to be to an unnecessary luxury to me at the time.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
wbtravis #3145 03/21/10 09:40 PM
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1. Are those glissade "trails" down the side of the ledge from the top? (in Bob's picture) If so, please comment on the practice from this location.

Yes, they're glissade trails. In good conditions, glissading from the top is a nice way to descend and save some time.

I glissaded that route with a group on a June day, two days after a storm. We all had full backpacks, and one of the group did a 360 forward roll during the descent, but came out ok. We descended in the morning after camping on the summit, and the snow was soft.

However, in poor conditions, it can be deadly. If the snow has been through a number of freeze/thaw cycles, and people descend late in the afternoon, the upper part is still in the sun and conditions might seem ok. But the mountain shadow starts from the bottom and moves upslope as the sun moves across the sky, so the bottom can freeze up first. People have died glissading that section in icy conditions.

2. Changing the trail to accommodate melting patterns -- was such a luxury a sign of the times or would such an undertaking be considered today?

Trails seem to get changed or improved, and this trail is one of the most traveled in the Sierra, so fixing it makes sense. I am sure with budgets these days, there is not as much trail construction as in the past.

...
As for searching, I don't think your question regarding moving the trail has been discussed before. But Bob R posted another excellent composite picture of the switchbacks maybe two years ago, but I sure can't find it now. It was one where you could zoom in and count all the hikers on the switchbacks.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3146 03/21/10 09:52 PM
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Thank you for the explanations. I have a lot of questions...speaking of -- maybe you could get a copy of that composite picture from Bob? (I bother him too much already)

B


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Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3147 03/21/10 10:08 PM
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"2. Changing the trail to accommodate melting patterns -- was such a luxury a sign of the times or would such an undertaking be considered today?

Trails seem to get changed or improved, and this trail is one of the most traveled in the Sierra, so fixing it makes sense. I am sure with budgets these days, there is not as much trail construction as in the past."


It is my understanding that the old trails were a nightmare of maintenance. The slopes are simliar to that below Shepherd Pass....loose scree and boulders, constantly shifting and falling onto the trail, wiping it out. To maintain it required huge efforts. The current trail is built into more solid rock (I understand a fair amount of blasting was required), and is far more stable. The work that has to be done now, is far less technical that that of the old trails. So, it seems that it was a "pay me now or pay me later" type of situation, where future funding was doubtful.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3148 03/22/10 06:24 AM
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I have a dim memory of the last major trail rebuilding on the switchbacks - I think it was in the late '90's. I believe the first year the trail was completely closed on specific dates, and the following year there was the possibility there might be delays. The first year I planned my trip around the dates, and the next year I had to plan the hike around the delays.

A general comment on glissading from near the top of the last(first?) switchback - the slope curves slightly to the left (north), so it's prudent to move a couple of hundred yards east (away from the crest) before beginning the glissade to compensate. Otherwise, you can be "drawn" into the rocks/boulders, and if you don't watch your speed, with possible disastrous results. Also - because of its exposure - it refreezes relatively early in the afternoon, and it's NOT a slope you want to slide on if it is icy/hardpack.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
KevinR #3186 03/23/10 11:33 PM
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I found Wayne Pyle labeled BobR's picture posted on the first page of this thread. Thanks to Bob R for taking it, and to Wayne for labeling.

Here is the picture. Click on it to see the full-size version, where you can read the switchback numbers.


The original threads are here:
    BobR's Photo of the 97 Switchbacks
    Wotans Throne, 23 June

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Steve C #3187 03/24/10 06:34 AM
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Just a great visual of those damn things - kudos to Bob and Wayne! Those glissade tracks just pucker me up . . .

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3193 03/24/10 11:28 AM
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I've done both the Main Trail and the Mountaineer's Route a bunch of times in winter. They each have their pleasures (and displeasures, I might have said, but I cannot speak of displeasures in these mountains--even in the wildest of storms!).

Technically, the MR can be considered tougher than the MT because of the 400' above The Notch. Elsewhere the technical difficulty is about the same, with the MR chute equating roughly to the chute below Trail Crest.

But in terms of total effort, I view the MT as the tougher of the two because of its length--11.2 miles vs 4.1, plus the walk from where you have to park to the Portal. (Although that 11.2 miles is considerably shortened in winter, when you are off the trail a fair amount.) The hike to Trail Camp is always a nice stroll through beautiful winter landscapes, as is that to Iceberg Lake. And the two chutes are roughly equivalent, as I said. But above those chutes, while the MR has a 400' remaining climb to the summit, the MT has a long two miles to go. Last weekend, the snow conditions meant that those two miles would take as much as four hours, and almost that long to get back to Trail Crest.

And, speaking again of last weekend as well as the weekend before, I observe that most parties this year are going up the MR, leaving the MT relatively vacant. Crowds are particularly bothersome above Iceberg Lake, whereas the same numbers of people anywhere on the MT are hardly noticeable.

All things considered, I personally prefer the Main Trail for the overall winter mountaineering experience.

My pictures from last weekend: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockwellb/sets/72157623682223366/
And Bob H's: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rescuebob81/sets/72157623679250018/

Last edited by Bob R; 03/25/10 09:29 AM. Reason: Added link to pictures
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bob R #3223 03/24/10 07:53 PM
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Ahhhh...this confirms a suspicion that I had all along: parts of the MR can almost seem congested at times, during the winter. SOmeone even mentioned that they had to come down a different way from the Final 400 because others were ascending.

1)Do I understand correctly that the (steep) slope below Trail Crest is the alternate route in Winter, due to the snowed-in condition of the cables?

2) Is a glissade mandatory to exit the (steep) slope below Trail Crest, or could one plunge step down this route? (I have never seen the area except in photos, so I am not meaning to sound obtuse)

B


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3231 03/25/10 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bee
Ahhhh...this confirms a suspicion that I had all along: parts of the MR can almost seem congested at times, during the winter. SOmeone even mentioned that they had to come down a different way from the Final 400 because others were ascending.

1)Do I understand correctly that the (steep) slope below Trail Crest is the alternate route in Winter, due to the snowed-in condition of the cables?

2) Is a glissade mandatory to exit the (steep) slope below Trail Crest, or could one plunge step down this route? (I have never seen the area except in photos, so I am not meaning to sound obtuse)

B


1. Yes, on the main trail. Not just because of the cables, but because the trail on the switchbacks are filled in with ice the whole way.

2. Glissade is NOT mandatory...in fact should never be mandatory in any situation I can think of. It may go a little far, but I'd say you wouldn't want to glissade on something you can't plunge step. You may not be able to plunge step, once the slope has set up for the afternoon in the lower half (It can become, in the parlance, "boilerplate" ice), and the only way down might be facing-in crampon work. One might find the switchbacks safer, maybe not. This is a real judgment situation. The best alternative may be a bivy, and wait for the next day's sun to soften the snow. Of course, one has to be prepared for that, and people have often gotten themselves onto the frozen slope, and found that there IS no place to bivy. This gets grim pretty fast.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Ken #3248 03/25/10 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
[ You may not be able to plunge step, once the slope has set up for the afternoon in the lower half (It can become, in the parlance, "boilerplate" ice), and the only way down might be facing-in crampon work. One might find the switchbacks safer, maybe not. This is a real judgment situation. The best alternative may be a bivy, and wait for the next day's sun to soften the snow. Of course, one has to be prepared for that, and people have often gotten themselves onto the frozen slope, and found that there IS no place to bivy. This gets grim pretty fast.


1) Is the shadow movement predictable enough to plan a trip around the condition of this slope? (a predictable window)

2) Is the icing on this slope mostly shadow/temp based? (meaning, are the conditions going uphill irrelevent/unrelated to those of the return trip)


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #3250 03/25/10 10:17 PM
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Bee,

We went in mid-May 2007. By 2 PM shadows were starting to creep down the slope. Since the temperature were in the 30 to 40* F range we down climbed...face in, to where the slope was bathed in sun, then glissaded the rest of the way down. We played it safe at the top...this being our first glissade of this length.

Conditions and your skill set determine what can do in any situation.

I have witnessed people descending being stopped dead in their tracks at the cables. They did not move for the forty minutes we were at Trail Camp. That area in the winter is the no fun zone both ascending and descending.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #29321 12/05/12 03:02 PM
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Hi Bee,
Please allow me to recommend that you take an avalanche course, like the one presented by Sierra Mountain Center. There are several other companies that offer similar instruction. Formal, expert instructions will go a long way to helping you explore the winter world in safety. Limited information from forum posters, however good, can only scratch the surface of what you need to know.

http://www.sierramountaincenter.com/winter_avalanche_courses1.html

Another good resource is the Eastern Sierra Avalanche Center http://esavalanche.org/, which gives up to date information on current avalanche conditions.


Last edited by Bob West; 12/05/12 03:04 PM.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bob West #29322 12/05/12 06:30 PM
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Thank you for the info, Bob. I have spent a lot of hours climbing up and down steep, snowy slopes, but the big BIG difference is that these slopes were Black Diamond GROOMED ski slopes, and I was usually retrieving gear lost in a fall-- no risk of avalanche. After watching a video of a guy trapped minutes during an avalanche (he had a helmet cam) I was cured of any desire to bee careless in the snow.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #29323 12/05/12 09:15 PM
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I think I saw that video in my avy class. Guy was skiing, following a guide, but then guide went right and the guy went left, triggered an avalanche, and got buried. You could hear his breathing and panic on the soundtrack. Positively chilling. He was lucky that he was with people who knew how to use the avy gear.

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Akichow #29326 12/05/12 10:11 PM
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That's the one -- I could not get that video out of my head for days.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Bee #29328 12/05/12 10:58 PM
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I'm with you on that. I saw it two years ago...still stuck on it....

Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
Akichow #30289 03/13/13 04:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
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My son and I are going to whitney next week March 23-25. This is our first time. Planning on camping at portal camp and outpost camp. Any suggestions?


really enjoy the outdoors. started backpacking with my son and we both really enjoy it.
Re: Whitney Main Trail in Winter?
choclab #30462 03/21/13 05:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted By: choclab
My son and I are going to whitney next week March 23-25. This is our first time. Planning on camping at portal camp and outpost camp. Any suggestions?


Calendar says it is spring but it is still winter up high...bring a lot of warmies.

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