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#32768 - 08/18/13 08:36 AM Staying an extra night
HisBobness Offline


Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 13
Loc: California
If this has been discussed, I apologize.

NEW MEMBER HERE!

This will be my 2nd Whitney trip and this time my group and I would like to spend an extra day/night on the trail after summiting, but our permits are one night only.

Should this be a concern?

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#32769 - 08/18/13 09:36 AM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: HisBobness]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1242
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
No!!!

The keys are entry point and date of entry. The forest service knows thing change and you might need an extra day for whatever reason. Just make sure that either your family or loved ones know you are staying that extra day. The cavalry is expensive when called out.

I can't remember the last time I exit Mt. Whitney or Trail Crest on the exit date printed on my permit.


Edited by wbtravis (08/18/13 09:37 AM)

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#32773 - 08/18/13 03:05 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: HisBobness]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 587
Loc: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted By: HisBobness
If this has been discussed, I apologize.

NEW MEMBER HERE!

This will be my 2nd Whitney trip and this time my group and I would like to spend an extra day/night on the trail after summiting, but our permits are one night only.

Should this be a concern?


The dates on the permit give you and your party permission to be within the Whitney Zone during that time period - not before, and not after. However, the Whitney Zone boundary is 3 miles up the trail from the Portal, just above Lone Pine Lake. Since no permit is needed outside that zone, I'm quite sure you could spend an extra night at, say, Lone Pine Lake. To be on the safe side, you could call the Visitor Center in Lone Pine to confirm this, and also verify it's OK to camp near the lake.

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#32774 - 08/18/13 03:21 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: KevinR]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Now I am confused by the previous two posts/answers to the original query. If I remember correctly, the rangers at the desk ask you your exit date when you get your permit -- you choosing the exit date (Whithin something like 14days? - clarify) Was the original permit (asked above) only one day because the holders chose it to be a one day, and then they changed their minds? Otherwise, is the exit date more of a safety perameter for search purposes?
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#32775 - 08/18/13 04:26 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Bee]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
The second response was correct. When you pick up the permit, ask then to change the exit date. So long as you have an overnight permit reserved, when you pick up the permit, you can designate as your exit date any day within 2 weeks of your entry. It does not matter what exit date you typed in when you initially reserved your permit. It is good for the rangers to have accurate info, so do tell them of your change in plans. The new, accurate, exit date will then be the one on your permit when it is actually issued at the station..

(And not relevant to your question, but no: even though LPL is not technically in the Whitney Zone, you DO need a Whitney Zone permit to spend the night there. You do not need one to day hike there.)


Edited by Akichow (08/18/13 04:29 PM)

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#32776 - 08/18/13 05:04 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Akichow]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 587
Loc: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted By: Akichow
(And not relevant to your question, but no: even though LPL is not technically in the Whitney Zone, you DO need a Whitney Zone permit to spend the night there. You do not need one to day hike there.)


I based my previous answer on the many times I've looked down thru the trees at LP Lake from the main trail and seen tents there. Personally, I avoid LP Lake as it seems the mosquitoes are particularly bad there, but that may just be me.

Nearly all my trips up Whitney have been daytrips. However, on the 5 times I've done it as an overnight, the beginning date started the following day, and the ending date was two days beyond that.

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#32778 - 08/18/13 05:53 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Akichow]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Thanks, Akichow -- most concise answer I have received on this query,

I hope that the original poster is reassured on his ability to change the exit date, too.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#32780 - 08/18/13 06:20 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Bee]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
<like!> like!

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#32781 - 08/18/13 06:29 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: HisBobness]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7392
Loc: Fresno, CA
I'm not sure which response to say is best.... some of the information is confusing.

As long as the reservation that you got in the lottery, or on-line after the lottery, is for a Mt Whitney Trail Overnight Permit, then the ONLY thing that matters is that you pick up the actual permit at the Visitor Center just S of Lone Pine (the day of, or up to two days before the start date), and then START on the trail at Whitney Portal on the specific start date.

Even if the reservation states the number of nights, nobody cares about that. You can change that when you pick up the actual permit. (You can even decide to change your exit plans while out on the trail.) The number of nights spent on the trail is informational only, and has no effect on the quotas.

You can stay overnight on the trail as many nights as you need or want (there is only a limit of 14 nights in the same place). When you pick up the permit, they ask you for your planned exit date (and write it on the permit, I think). It does not matter what the reservation has for number of nights.

Once you are on the trail, nobody will mind if you come out early or late, as long as family or friends don't call in a panic and report you missing if you come out late. People have reported wishing to stay an extra night beyond what their permit states, but getting out because of what was on the permit. They can stay the extra night without any problem, except for the issue of family/friends reporting you missing.

Again, the permit reservation is ONLY for a permit to start on that specific date.





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#32783 - 08/18/13 07:16 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Steve C]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
Much less confusing.

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#32789 - 08/19/13 09:13 AM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Akichow]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1242
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
So, if you break ankle you are suppose to hobble out on your exit date? Also, if you complete the Onion Valley to WP a day early you are supposed to stay at Lone Pine Lake an extra night?

Common sense dictates the exit date to be a best guess approximation. The only Whitney Trip I've come off on the exact date on my permit has been my day hikes. Every other trip I have come off the trail a different date than what is on my permit. I have been stopped by forest service employees and volunteers and no one, I repeat, no one has ever questioned me about my exit dates, extra days or early.

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#32791 - 08/19/13 09:44 AM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: wbtravis]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Your example of the broken ankle is irrelevent to the topic/conversation,as it presents a "problem" that has an obvious answer not related to the original question (answer: of course you will not be "penalized" for the delay caused by your injury). At no point did Akichow state that it was a mandate that I must get outta dodge by my permit exit date, rather she stated that the importance of the date is for search/safety reasons. Thus, IF I had broken my ankle and was unable to hobble out of the Zone by my exit date, perhaps it would alert my friends/family that there was an issue and they would come find me, bring crutches and all would be well. System worked.

The exit date as explained serves as much as a safety device as it does to keep the traffic moving. What it is not is a penalty device (unless, of course, one decides to stay for 3 years like they do in the National Forests)

Thanks again, Akichow, for clarifying the point.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#32796 - 08/19/13 05:37 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Bee]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1242
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
The broken ankle is an example you don't like, how does a route find nightmare that forces you either walk out exhausted to meet a date on a permit. I have spent the extra night in that circumstance. I always have enough food for another day or two.

An exit date is only important, if you don't tell your family you have changed the date, since the forest service does not require you to close the permit. Same goes for itinerary, if you change it between you ranger station and the trailhead, it is more important to tell your family than the forest service since they are one's calling the sheriff's office.

The permit system is one of voluntary compliance. Our trails are not patrolled by people with police power on the whole.

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#32797 - 08/19/13 06:30 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: wbtravis]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Who are you arguing with/trying to convince that the exit date is an informality when it comes to permit "enforcement"?

I agree! We all agree! Akichow agrees. Steve agrees. No need for hysterical examples of injury and mayhem. The exit date is little more than a courtesy that involves no posse of enforcement rangers if said date is exceded. Okay?

Hey Bob! Are you catching all of this? No problem on your permit exit date, dude.....but kindly tell your loved ones so that they don't worry.





Edited by Bee (08/19/13 06:36 PM)
Edit Reason: Geez, pretty soon I am going to be responding to Kardashian articles on Yahoo...
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#32798 - 08/19/13 06:44 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: wbtravis]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 999
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
So, if you break ankle you are suppose to hobble out on your exit date?

I took this to be no more than rhetorical and/or tongue in cheek. No need for inflammation. Yes, we all agree on the exit flexibility.

Just to make permit life interesting, did you know that sometimes rangers have been known to "borrow" a day or two from another day's allotment so that a group can stay together?

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#32800 - 08/19/13 07:06 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
Yeah Bee said what I would have said. And these scenarios really do not relate to the original post, but the original question has been answered correctly.

But, since the issue has come up: there is a difference between changing your exit date on an overnight permit for a trip that originates at the Portal (can do so easily/freely with no restrictions beyond the 14 day thing when you pick up your permit), and changing your exit date on a permit for an overnight trip that originates elsewhere (e.g., Onion Valley). If your trip originates elsewhere (not including trips that originate in a national park, which is yet another can of worms), then the exit date that you chose when you reserved IS more fixed--you are stuck with that date when you pick up your permit, unless they happen to have excess capacity for a different date. Even the terminolgy is different on a trip like that -- you are reserving a permit for the OV TH (Kearsarge) PLUS an "exit permit" on Whitney for the specified date.

Confusing? Maybe. Draconian? No. I specifically asked the rangers about exiting early/late from a trip originating at OV and exiting WZ due to injury orO running out of food. They said they understand that stuff happens, and that so long as people are not abusing the system, they will be understanding. On my own OV-Whitney trip, while that did not happen to me, it did happen to a couple I met at Crabtree. Rob (Sequioa NP ranger) told them that the Inyo rangers would understand if they had a good reason to deviate. Later, I confirmed that yet again with Brian, an actual Inyo ranger whom I met on my way out, who was checking permits. Good reasons include injury and running out of food. They don't include abusive reasons, like, "I took this exit date only because my first choice exit date was sold out."


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#32801 - 08/19/13 07:08 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Harvey agrees!

Welcome back, Harvey -- I hope your recent trip was fun!

Another friend of mine was citing other flexible permit examples, also. In my incredibly shallow experience with obtaining permits, I have found that the rangers at the desk tried very hard to accomodate my needs (except the one who was ranting about how stupid of me to want to overnight on the Whitney summit)
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#32804 - 08/19/13 09:34 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Bee]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7392
Loc: Fresno, CA
Bee wrote:
> except the one who was ranting about how stupid of me to want to overnight on the Whitney summit

True story. I was there. crazy Sort of like the grocery store clerk saying, "Whoa! That's a lot of ____" (I'll bet store clerks are ordered NOT to comment on the stuff people buy.)

Just so "Bobness" doesn't get too confused, Akichow is talking about the only permits required for hiking out on one particular trail. (I don't think there is another like it in the entire country.) It's the Trail Crest Exit permit, required of anyone starting an overnight trip on another Inyo National Forest trailhead, and then exiting via the Main Mt Whitney Trail.

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#32829 - 08/21/13 05:53 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: Akichow]
HisBobness Offline


Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 13
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Akichow
The second response was correct. When you pick up the permit, ask then to change the exit date. So long as you have an overnight permit reserved, when you pick up the permit, you can designate as your exit date any day within 2 weeks of your entry. It does not matter what exit date you typed in when you initially reserved your permit. It is good for the rangers to have accurate info, so do tell them of your change in plans. The new, accurate, exit date will then be the one on your permit when it is actually issued at the station..

(And not relevant to your question, but no: even though LPL is not technically in the Whitney Zone, you DO need a Whitney Zone permit to spend the night there. You do not need one to day hike there.)


OP here. Thanks to all of those who chimed in. Without getting into specifics, I believe the basic answer to my question is; yes, I can, so long as I notify the station when I pick up my permits/canister/poop bag smile that my exit date will be October, xx.

First night at Trail Crest, and my extra night at the camp right below Trail Crest (Outpost?).

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#32859 - 08/22/13 10:24 PM Re: Staying an extra night [Re: HisBobness]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
Hello. Can't really camp at Trail Crest -- it is a small area at 13,600' where you top out after climbing the 97 switchbacks. The views are tremendous but not really a place to camp.

The usual camping areas are (1) Trail Camp, at about 12K, and (2) Outpost Camp at about 10K. There are other places, like Lone Pine Lake, Consultation Lake, and above Mirror Lake but below Trailside Meadow, that are used less frequently. Not sure which you have in mind from your post.

Have a great time and be safe!

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