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Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Fishmonger #35497 03/27/14 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Hmmm...if I'm not mistaken the Ursack is 7.3 oz. and holds the equal of a big canister.


My nylon garbage bags are even lighter and hold even more.


My guess is your nylon garbage bag is either LLDPE, LDPE or HDPE, not nylon. I'm also going to make an assumption it was not manufactured to keep food safe from bears, thus will not comply with the INF order.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
wbtravis #35498 03/27/14 10:06 AM
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All canisters fail. They fail primarily because of the user.

I have used Garcia, Bear Vault, Bearikade and Ursack products. I have never had a failure with any of them. The only time I have lost food is because I failed to protect it.

I use these products the way the manufacturer says they should be used.

If you have any questions about Ursack products, just email Tom Cohen he has always responded to any inquiry I have made.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
wbtravis #35502 03/27/14 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
My nylon garbage bags are even lighter and hold even more.

My guess is your nylon garbage bag is either LLDPE, LDPE or HDPE, not nylon. I'm also going to make an assumption it was not manufactured to keep food safe from bears, thus will not comply with the INF order.

I think Fishmonger was being sarcastic. :-/

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Steve C #35503 03/27/14 11:42 AM
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This topic is a good place for this...

I received an email from a friend asking the questions below. I know people here are better at helping out with container info than I, so maybe y'all can share your knowledge.

Quote:
I’m planning a 5-day backpack over Shepherd Pass this summer.

My question is about bear-resistant storage. I have an ancient Garcia that weighs a ton and doesn’t hold enough food for 5 days. (I eat a lot.) The BearVault BV500 is an obvious candidate. Do you have any better ideas? Is the Ursack even legal (in Seki)?


Thanks everyone for the help!

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Whitney Fan #35504 03/27/14 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Whitney Fan
Except . . . isn't "sir" a "maam"?

I wouldn't know, its not stated in the poem. Regardless it is a nice poem and my apologies to the author!

Last edited by hike500; 03/27/14 03:20 PM.





“Any thoughts of guilt, any feelings of regret, had faded. The desert had baked them out.” - Stephen King


Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Steve C #35511 03/27/14 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Originally Posted By: Fishmonger
My nylon garbage bags are even lighter and hold even more.

My guess is your nylon garbage bag is either LLDPE, LDPE or HDPE, not nylon. I'm also going to make an assumption it was not manufactured to keep food safe from bears, thus will not comply with the INF order.

I think Fishmonger was being sarcastic. :-/


As was I. wink

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
hike500 #35516 03/27/14 07:11 PM
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No offense taken.

I also own an Ursack. Here is an extra verse that I wrote about the Ursack way back when. (When I originally posted the poem on a JMT group, the same love-hate dialogue about Ursack ensued, which prompted me to write this verse at the time).

I was thrilled to find the Ursack
So light and easy to compress
But now I realize a big bear whack
Could leave you with a great big mess.
You have to tie the hole right
Or a bear claw will do its damage
Make it really really tight
Or you'll be listening to ursine rampage.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Akichow #35517 03/27/14 07:35 PM
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Nice poems, Akichow.

Here's an update from the Ursack website on their battle getting approval from the Interagency Grizzly Bear Center. It's been going on for years. Now they want a retest with another Grizzly going after an Ursack lying on the ground. It's supposed to be tied to a rock or tree. Who knows, maybe the Grizzly will have a bad day. Hope for the best if you like Ursacks.


March 6, 2014

The Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGBC) wants to re-test the Ursack S29 AllWhite. We expect the test to occur in early April 2014 and that an official IGBC decision will be made promptly thereafter. The re-test is necessary because of the "ambiguous" results of the May 30, 2013 tests (see earlier posts below for details). The new test will be of a single Ursack placed on the ground with no aluminum liner. If it survives 60 minutes of Grizzly attacks per the IGBC test protocol (to be finalized and posted soon), then it will receive IGBC certification. Please note that even IGBC certification is no guarantee that every wilderness area in the U.S. will approve Ursack.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
SierraNevada #35518 03/27/14 08:21 PM
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This has been posted before...



Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Steve C #35519 03/27/14 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
This topic is a good place for this...

I received an email from a friend asking the questions below. I know people here are better at helping out with container info than I, so maybe y'all can share your knowledge.

Quote:
I’m planning a 5-day backpack over Shepherd Pass this summer.

My question is about bear-resistant storage. I have an ancient Garcia that weighs a ton and doesn’t hold enough food for 5 days. (I eat a lot.) The BearVault BV500 is an obvious candidate. Do you have any better ideas? Is the Ursack even legal (in Seki)?


Thanks everyone for the help!


The BearVault is both a reasonable choice, and a popular one. There are other choices, but they involve more weight, more money, or questionable legality.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
wagga #35520 03/27/14 08:57 PM
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That video is the clever black bear at the Folsom Zoo, Fisher. She's not good enough anymore, apparently. We're talking Grizzly testing at West Yellowstone because you never know when a Grizzly might sneak into California and chew on your Ursack lying on the ground. There's one on the state flag, so I guess it could happen.

How about that graveyard of failed trash cans and boxes.


Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
SierraNevada #35524 03/27/14 10:36 PM
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The video of Folsom Fisher chewing on that Ursack is enough to convince me that it also needs to come with a couple of bear bells. I'd need something to wake me in the night so I could yell and throw rocks at the bear.

Here are two pictures from the bear habitat in West Yellowstone last summer. They were the only bears we saw during our vacation. We were there at feeding time, and the caretakers sequestered all the animals, and then hid the food in all sorts of nooks and crannies. Then the bears (and a lot of ravens, too) would go hunting and eating.

I sure don't think an Ursack test with it NOT being fastened to a tree or other object is a fair test. Hoping for the best, anyway.

 

I think the shaggy one is the grizzly.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Steve C #35529 03/28/14 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
The video of Folsom Fisher chewing on that Ursack is enough to convince me that it also needs to come with a couple of bear bells. I'd need something to wake me in the night so I could yell and throw rocks at the bear.

Here are two pictures from the bear habitat in West Yellowstone last summer. They were the only bears we saw during our vacation. We were there at feeding time, and the caretakers sequestered all the animals, and then hid the food in all sorts of nooks and crannies. Then the bears (and a lot of ravens, too) would go hunting and eating.

I sure don't think an Ursack test with it NOT being fastened to a tree or other object is a fair test. Hoping for the best, anyway.

 

I think the shaggy one is the grizzly.

I can't imagine old Shaggy walking around my tent at night, Ursack or no Ursack!!






“Any thoughts of guilt, any feelings of regret, had faded. The desert had baked them out.” - Stephen King


Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
hike500 #35530 03/28/14 03:31 AM
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Personal opinion, of course, but I think it is a fair test because it takes account of user error. If you have a product, maybe it works when used perfectly and maybe it doesn't, but you know that a lot of users are not going to use it correctly, do you test it under perfect conditions? Ursack presumably has done what it can to try to teach folks how to use it properly, and yet a lot of folks don't (or can't) tie the knot properly; perhaps fail to use a liner when they should; and don't anchor it properly. Until or unless Ursack can get its product to the point that it is consistently used properly in the field, seems to me that you have to test in a way that accounts for the numerous errors that people make.

Using a bear canister/sack is, after all, not JUST about protecting food. It is also about saving bears. A fed bear, as they say, is a dead bear. I, personally, like the fact that the wild is still wild, and that I sometimes see (very shy) black bears scurrying way when hiking the Sierra. The stories of Yosemite euthanizing repeat offender bears, who have successfully obtained human food and keep coning back for more, are positively chilling. So I support the need to approve only those bear canister/systems that work consistently in the field rather than just for the few. If/when Ursack engineers its bag to account better for user error, that's when they should get approval, and not before. IMHO.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Akichow #35534 03/28/14 08:43 AM
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Good point about user error, and making it a conservative test is appropriate, but the product is not intended to be used in that manner. Likewise, people forget to close the lid and engage both clicks on the BearVault or to use a coin to secure a Garcia canister. To be consistent, they should they test those products and the Bearicade with the lid semi-locked assuming user error. Maybe they do, but I doubt they would pass. It would be like testing seat beats that aren't fully latched. Nothing is foolproof because there's always a bigger fool around the corner. The question is, how much should the rest of us suffer to accommodate them?

The history on this is pretty clear, it's taking lawsuits to get a fair judgment on the Ursack. They keep delaying and delaying and changing the rules. They don't even have a test protocol defined yet for this upcoming test.

If these product don't work as intended, we need to know and either improve them or ban them. But do they have to work as unintended as well? If so, then treat them all the same way.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Ken #35535 03/28/14 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Originally Posted By: Steve C
This topic is a good place for this...

I received an email from a friend asking the questions below. I know people here are better at helping out with container info than I, so maybe y'all can share your knowledge.

Quote:
I’m planning a 5-day backpack over Shepherd Pass this summer.

My question is about bear-resistant storage. I have an ancient Garcia that weighs a ton and doesn’t hold enough food for 5 days. (I eat a lot.) The BearVault BV500 is an obvious candidate. Do you have any better ideas? Is the Ursack even legal (in Seki)?


Thanks everyone for the help!


The BearVault is both a reasonable choice, and a popular one. There are other choices, but they involve more weight, more money, or questionable legality.


Let's answer the question concerning legality in the Inyo National Forest..."The Inyo National Forest requires proper food storage in all wilderness areas. In some places, visitors must use bear bear-resistant containers, designed specifically to protect food from bears. In all other areas within designated wilderness, visitors are required to counter-balance their food, or store it in bear-resistant containers." Here's the link thingy... http://tinyurl.com/omwtm2t

If I'm not mistaken, Ursack are designed specially to protect food from bears.

Let's talk Bear Vault, some are ok everywhere and others are not legal in Rae Lakes because the bears are smarter there than anywhere else in the Sierra. Also, I do remember a seasonal ranger telling me to put my bright new shinny Bear Vault in bear box at Kearsarge Lakes a while ago because 7 had failed.

Again, all canister fail and the failure usually involves the two legged owner of the canister.

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
SierraNevada #35549 03/28/14 07:08 PM
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I agree that tests should be fair. But I think that the Ursack is far more prone to user error or misuse than a Garcia or a Bearikade, and that this may properly be a factor in designing a testing protocol.

For example, a lot of folks will admit to the fact that tying the knot tight enough to prevent leaving an opening for an inquisitive claw is pretty tough. And many folks don't bother with a liner, whether of the smell-depressing kind or the structure-bolstering kind. So I think it is reasonable to design the test around the specific challenges posed by and vulnerabilities of the product you are testing. IMHO, the Ursack, wonderful as it is (and I do use mine in Desolation Wilderness, among other places, where it is legal), is not similarly situated to the Garcia and Bearikade, and there is a reasonable basis for testing it based on its particular engineering and vulnerabilities.

I didn't list the Bear Vault because it raises an interesting issue (I have one of those too). Word is that it's not just that rogue bear on the East Coast that has figured out to break into it (and then taught all her rogue bear friends), but that at least one bear some where around our parts, near Onion Valley/Kearsarge Pass, that has as well. The Bear Vault is a great product -- wide mouth, see-through, no tool need to open it, reasonably lightweight, well-priced compared to the Bearikade, if hard to open -- but we'll have to see how/whether it maintains its approval. I understand it already was modified a while back, and that may not be enough for some bears.

Last edited by Akichow; 03/28/14 07:10 PM. Reason: Oops, sorry, missed wbtravis's point about the Bear Vault when I was responding to the other message. Sounds like the word I heard has legs about the smart bear(s) out of Kearsarge Pass...
Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Akichow #35550 03/28/14 07:33 PM
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I guess I'm not as smart as the average bear, Boo Boo. I have a heck of a time opening my Bear Vault. I'd give up half the time if I wasn't so darn hungry.

If human error is considered for one product, then human error should be part of the test protocol for all competing products. How to do that fairly is a tough question. That's my $0.02, keep the change and good luck Ursack. Someone should stuff that Grizzly full of hot dogs just before the test. Can you actually fill up a Grizzly? smile

Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
Akichow #35551 03/28/14 07:48 PM
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Here is a great compendium on the bear cannisters out there:

http://calipidder.com/wp/2009/05/bear-canisters-the-pros-and-cons-of-different-designs/


An excerpt from Calipidder's website -- great info!

Brand Weight Volume Price Material
------------------- ------------ --------- ------- ------------------------------------
Garcia 2 lb 12 oz 614 cu in $69.95 ABS Plastic

Bare Boxer 1 lb 13.6 oz 275 cu in $39.95 ABS Plastic


BearVault BV500 2 lb 9 oz 700 cu in $79.95 Polycarbonate

BearVault BV450 2 lb 1 oz 440 cu in $66.95 Polycarbonate


Bearikade Weekender 1 lb 15 oz 650 cu in $225.00 composite carbon-fiber and aluminum

Bearikade Expedition 2 lb 5 oz 900 cu in $275.00 composite carbon-fiber and aluminum


Ursack V27 7.5 oz 650 cu in $54.95 Vectran 27 yarns per inch

Ursack TKO 8.2 oz 650 cu in $49.95 Coated Spectra

Ursack Aluminum Liner (note that this combines with one of the two bags listed above)

Last edited by Steve C; 03/29/14 12:32 AM. Reason: table layout

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Bear-Resistant Food Container
SierraNevada #35552 03/28/14 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I guess I'm not as smart as the average bear, Boo Boo. I have a heck of a time opening my Bear Vault. I'd give up half the time if I wasn't so darn hungry.


Bear Vault should be renamed "Hiker Vault" because it successfully kept me from raiding a buddy's M&M stash.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
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