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#36888 - 05/29/14 06:02 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Yury]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Yury
I understand that a WAG bag/Garry Oye thread was deleted on another forum.
Was it because of my question or something else?

You mean ANOTHER Wag bag thread was deleted on the Portal Store Forum, again. Nothing personal, Yury. Doug and his store are entirely dependent on a Special Use Permit from Inyo to operate. He censors free speech that embarrasses his landlords. These are perfectly civil, informative and popular threads he's deleting.

Is there ONE post from anyone contesting the facts of the matter, as presented in the video?

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#36889 - 05/29/14 06:44 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Just like the invisible threads used to sew the Emperors clothes.

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#36892 - 05/29/14 08:39 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Steve C]
Marty Offline


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 90
Loc: CT


Quote:
...Garry Oye has left Inyo National Forest and is employed by the National Park Service. So his impact on Whitney is history.


He left Mount Whitney littered with wag bags...that's some legacy!

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#36908 - 05/30/14 10:15 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
As a business owner, I can fully appreciate the fine line that Doug, Sr., walks when it comes to message board content. It does not matter whether the personal attacks are fact-based or not: it serves no purpose to carry such vitriol on a board that is meant to be an extension of both the WPS and the recreational opportunities surrounding it. It is Doug's board and he has expressed his feelings about bringing rants, complaints, finger pointing, etc., to a venue that was not designed to host such topics.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#36909 - 05/30/14 10:56 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Bee
As a business owner, I can fully appreciate the fine line that Doug, Sr., walks when it comes to message board content. It does not matter whether the personal attacks are fact-based or not: it serves no purpose to carry such vitriol on a board that is meant to be an extension of both the WPS and the recreational opportunities surrounding it. It is Doug's board and he has expressed his feelings about bringing rants, complaints, finger pointing, etc., to a venue that was not designed to host such topics.

Did you read the thread before it was deleted? Or the deleted threads before that? I saw lots of factual information, nothing inappropriate.

This is about decisions and actions of our government that affect 20,000 people per year including pretty much everyone who reads these forums. It's pretty sad when people become too afraid to discuss what their government is doing and how those decisions are being made. It's neglect of our civic duty if you ask me.

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#36910 - 05/30/14 11:21 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Yes and yes to both of your questions.

My question to you: Did you read my post?

"a board that is meant to be an extension of both the WPS and the recreational opportunities surrounding it. It is Doug's board and he has expressed his feelings about bringing rants, complaints, finger pointing, etc., to a venue that was not designed to host such topics."

I am not questioning the validity of the posts, rather, it is their appropriateness on a tourist board.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#36912 - 05/30/14 11:50 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
I read your post and I understand your argument. I guess we just don't agree on the what's appropriate. If the information was inaccurate or unrelated to Whitney, I would agree with you. IMHO, if it's something that affects everyone reading the forum, and the discussion is meaningful and polite, then let the conversation proceed. If someone starts ranting or gets inappropriate, then the moderator should do their job and address the specific post with that person.

That's just me, he can delete whatever he feels like on his forum. I understand if he feels a need to protect his landlords, makes perfect sense for someone afraid of losing their livelihood.


Edited by SierraNevada (05/30/14 12:23 PM)

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#36918 - 05/30/14 06:09 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I guess we just don't agree on the what's appropriate. If the information was inaccurate or unrelated to Whitney, I would agree with you. IMHO, if it's something that affects everyone reading the forum, and the discussion is meaningful and polite, then let the conversation proceed.


To put it simply: Doug does not want this topic on his message board. It is HIS board, and his rules. There does not have to be an explanation for his rules, as it is his "kingdom" and he is the king.

If people want to take their issue to the public, than they will have to seek out another forum.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#36919 - 05/30/14 06:50 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Bee
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I guess we just don't agree on the what's appropriate. If the information was inaccurate or unrelated to Whitney, I would agree with you. IMHO, if it's something that affects everyone reading the forum, and the discussion is meaningful and polite, then let the conversation proceed.


To put it simply: Doug does not want this topic on his message board. It is HIS board, and his rules. There does not have to be an explanation for his rules, as it is his "kingdom" and he is the king.

If people want to take their issue to the public, than they will have to seek out another forum.

Bee, you left out my quote where I agree - he can delete all the threads he wants for whatever reason he feels like. He's the King of his forum and in complete control of his subjects (bad pun cry ). We agree on that.

Thank goodness for the Whitney Zone where people are able to discuss all things Whitney including the good ole American tradition of questioning our government. We pay the Forest Service to manage Whitney on our behalf, let's not be afraid to talk about how they go about it.

Edited to point out the bad pun, thinking Bee would appreciate it.


Edited by SierraNevada (05/30/14 07:21 PM)

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#36921 - 05/30/14 08:16 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
What I find disturbing, Bee, is the situation that occurs when a person hides their identity, specifically that they are an employee of the Gov't, but of an entity that sometimes is in conflict with the target of their attacks.

And that they have a side business that stands to profit from the "public stand" that they are taking, but don't reveal.

Now, I haven't named any names, so I guess this is kosher. But anyone who thinks they can post freely on this website has not felt the lash of management, who feels free to re-write your words or delete your posts....simply on the basis of disagreeing with you.

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#36922 - 05/30/14 10:03 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Ken]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Wow, Ken, this could be the deepest conspiracy theory ever.

So if I understand your hypothesis correctly:

1. There's a tycoon out there conspiring to get rich building new toilets on Mt Whitney. Seems like a bad business plan.

2. There's a government employee hiding their identity in order to attack another government entity. Seems complicated.

3. You're angry about being moderated for previous behavior on this forum.

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#36923 - 05/30/14 10:32 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Always appreciate a good pun.

_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#36924 - 05/30/14 10:36 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
If English is your second language, your first must be amazing. You're the Grammar Goddess in my book.

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#36925 - 05/30/14 10:36 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Ken]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
The web, forums, etc., foster a strange cloak and dagger environment when it comes to opinions, stands et al.

_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#36926 - 05/30/14 11:08 PM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Ken, I respect your knowledge, wilderness ethics, and openness to innovative ideas. We tend to agreed up to about 95% on most things. Perhaps we can discuss the 5% more effectively.

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#36928 - 05/31/14 01:24 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Bee
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I guess we just don't agree on the what's appropriate. If the information was inaccurate or unrelated to Whitney, I would agree with you. IMHO, if it's something that affects everyone reading the forum, and the discussion is meaningful and polite, then let the conversation proceed.


To put it simply: Doug does not want this topic on his message board. It is HIS board, and his rules. There does not have to be an explanation for his rules, as it is his "kingdom" and he is the king.

If people want to take their issue to the public, than they will have to seek out another forum.

Actually Bee, Doug Sr has stated his reasons in a thread still on his board. He objected to two things. The first was the use of personal attacks as a substitute for discussion of policy. Anyone who has viewed the video at the beginning of this thread knows that it did not discuss any civic action to replace the solar toilets or address any action in that direction. This has been typical of the discussions on this issue presented on the Whitney boards. The second objection was to anonymous posting on contentious topics. Neither of those reasons have anything to do the topic itself.

The only thing keeping the solar toilet issue off of the WPS board is the inability of the participants to avoid a couple of disreputable tactics. The substitution of personal characterization for policy advocacy is neither meaningful nor polite, but it seems to appeal to those more interested in entertainment value than an open honest discussion of policy. Doug's open statement on his site of the reasons for censorship is an action that Steve C could take a lesson from.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#36929 - 05/31/14 07:04 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Wag Bag threads have been allowed and then suddenly deleted on that site over and over again. They're usually the most viewed of any topic. There's one common theme, when the truth starts to come out about how the toilets were removed it gets axed. It's that simple.

Rather than call for censorship, why don't you point it out when something is too personal for you. Address that specific post. There's no reason to nuke entire threads full of information.

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#36932 - 05/31/14 08:06 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Wag Bag threads ... They're usually the most viewed of any topic.

Car wrecks are the most viewed events along our freeways, but that is not a justification for causing them. When you run a site, you can decide how to deal with topics where people build car wrecks to see how many will look.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#36933 - 05/31/14 08:21 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: Bee]
Fishmonger Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 1033
Loc: Madison, WI
Originally Posted By: Bee
Always appreciate a good pun.

I cannot tell jokes, myself, due to the fact that I was not raised in an English speaking environment, so humour did not quite gel.


My first language is German, so I must be totally doomed when it comes to humor laugh

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#36934 - 05/31/14 08:35 AM Re: Torching Whitney Toilets [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: dbd
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Wag Bag threads ... They're usually the most viewed of any topic.

Car wrecks are the most viewed events along our freeways, but that is not a justification for causing them. When you run a site, you can decide how to deal with topics where people build car wrecks to see how many will look.

Dale B. Dalrymple

Seems that you wanted that video to include a solution for building new solar toilets. Sounds good. The presentation by RMNP in that video is a good start.

I wrote to Inyo about a year ago proposing a phased approach with a new toilet at Outpost Camp using stock to remove waste. The reply was a bunch of technical excuses about how toilets didn't work in the past, therefore they can't possibly work in the future. That reply brings it back full circle to the past. It all starts by understanding how we got to where we are. I think it's now clear what happened and hopefully we're finally getting past that.

What's your proposal for getting new solar toilets on Whitney?

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