Mt Whitney Webcam
Mt Williamson Webcam
Feature Topics
Who's Online
3 registered (Hoot, Aaron Wood, MikeH), 16 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
3781 Members
10 Forums
5600 Topics
51222 Posts

Max Online: 382 @ 11/07/12 05:45 AM
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#37468 - 06/15/14 05:24 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wbtravis]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Dale,

As we SoCal backpackers know, the forest service fixes where you can camp in San Gorgonio Wilderness as does the State Park in Mt. San Jacinto State Wilderness Park. If they can do it there, they can do it anywhere.
...

It is a common technique to limit the spread of damage in heavily used areas.

So what is your point? Are you saying you like that and want it for the MMWT?

Dale B. Dalrymple

Top
#37478 - 06/16/14 09:01 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: dbd]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Dale, you are so defensive. I was just pointing out your mistake and cited a few examples.

Top
#37480 - 06/16/14 11:27 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wbtravis]
QITNL Offline


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 26
Loc: CA
I think the simplest option would be reduced quotas. If some people continue to act irresponsibly and others make a big stink about it, it's probably the most likely option, too.

It definitely worked on Half Dome, which like Whitney is little more than a trophy to some. I wouldn't expect those folks to have any respect for the mountains.

Quotas could be reduced by a merit system.

To qualify for an overnight permit in the Whitney Zone, for instance, the applicant must previously complete an overnight trip elsewhere in the Inyo/SEKI area.

This would:
1) Weed out the trophy hunters, reduce accidents
2) Disperse traffic to other trailheads, giving hikers a greater appreciation of the Sierra
3) Once you are in the system, the rangers have your info and history at their fingertips and you don't hold up the line

Dayhiking permits could be reduced by the number of discarded wag bags.

Top
#37484 - 06/16/14 12:23 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: QITNL]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7740
Loc: Fresno, CA
dbd and wbt: Please review the ground rules in the first post of this thread.

QITNL: I cringe when I see any suggestion of reducing quotas. Wbt has mentioned getting "politically powerful environmental activist groups" involved, and there, too, I fear their response will be the same as your suggestion.

The Half Dome situation, in fact, is the reason I have terminated my membership in the Sierra Club. The SC at the state level supported cutting the numbers so drastically on Half Dome without even trying to evaluate other methods to enhance the safety. I have always felt that twice as many Half Dome hikers could be accommodated if they would issue time-sensitive permits, where (some) hikers have to pass the checkpoint before 10 AM or after 2 PM (or something like that).

Every time I see the call to reduce numbers, I see an exclusive attitude, such as "those once-and-done types don't deserve to hike in my territory". In the Half Dome situation, they were called the flip-flop Disneyland hikers, and similar terms.

I would put reducing quotas at the bottom of the list of options, about the same level as requiring Wag bags. Locking people out of the wilderness is a good way to get less and less support for National Parks and National Forests.

Top
#37494 - 06/16/14 03:47 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: QITNL]
2Old4This Offline


Registered: 05/27/14
Posts: 51
Loc: Northern California
@QITNL:
Yeah, it's not like these are "public lands". Why let anyone at all in? If we kept everybody out that would have the smallest impact possible and preserve the land for future generations to not see.

Top
#37538 - 06/17/14 10:24 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Steve C]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Steve,

If I'm not mistaken, reducing quotas was one of the options way back when. Before I would reduce quotas, I would make all backpacking trips start at trailheads other Whitney Portal. This certainly would reduce impact on the MMWT and assign camping area for the exiting hikers utilizing Trail Camp, Consultation Lake, Outpost Camp and Lone Pine Lake. This would spread the impact out a bit more than now where most camp at Trail Camp. Also, many will just exit rather than camp on the east side of the crest...only time I have camped on this east while exiting was when one in our party sprained an ankle.

Top
#37563 - 06/17/14 06:25 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Reducing quotas will always be an option to solve everything. I love the quote from above, "lock it up to preserve it for the next generation not to enjoy."

The next generation can climb the peak on their Playstation, shoot a few zombies on the way, use their toilet at home. Problem solved. How simple is that?

Top
#37579 - 06/17/14 11:51 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7740
Loc: Fresno, CA
A new low reported by "Joe the Hiker" in Post 37561:

"The trail camp draw had WAG bags in the water"
...and this:

"Couldn't find a nice spot at Trail Camp to protect us from the wind. Found one nice spot, but it smelled of human excrement."

From "Daves not here": "Lots of wag bags just dumped on trail from just before Trail Camp all the way up to a mile short of the summit. We spotted over 50 between me and my partner."

From Mauricio, 6/25/14:
"The only unfortunate thing was the very high amount of wag bags left over, pretty much everywhere. Most of them on Trail Camp, but we saw a few on the switchbacks, and farther up the trail, beyond the JMT junction."


Edited by Steve C (06/25/14 08:30 PM)

Top
#37590 - 06/18/14 09:12 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Steve C]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Originally Posted By: Steve C
A new low reported by "Joe the Hiker" in Post 37561:

"The trail camp draw had WAG bags in the water"
...and this:

"Couldn't find a nice spot at Trail Camp to protect us from the wind. Found one nice spot, but it smelled of human excrement."

From "Daves not here": " Lots of wag bags just dumped on trail from just before Trail Camp all the way up to a mile short of the summit. We spotted over 50 between me and my partner."


And it is only June.

Top
#37595 - 06/18/14 11:37 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Steve C]
2Old4This Offline


Registered: 05/27/14
Posts: 51
Loc: Northern California
Good thing they got rid of those toilets. They were such an eyesore and an environmental hazard.

Top
#37645 - 06/19/14 03:48 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: 2Old4This]
Steve Chamberlin Offline


Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 55
Loc: California
OK, nobody liked my suggestion of a refundable deposit fee on the WAG bags, so how about this (originally suggested by Daves Not Here, not sure if he was kidding)

Print a unique serial number on every WAG bag. Write down everyone's WAG bag number when they pick up their permit. Then if a ranger finds abandoned WAG bags on the trail, he can look up whose bag it was, and send them a ticket for a $1000 fine.

Top
#37652 - 06/19/14 06:40 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Steve Chamberlin]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Steve Chamberlin
Then if a ranger finds abandoned WAG bags on the trail, he can look up whose bag it was, and send them a ticket for a $1000 fine.

Write a $1,000 fine based on what authority? There has to be a law to write a citation. That would be a Forest Order under National Forest Service jurisdiction. A Forest Order requires compliance with NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act). Oppps, this great environmentally "friendly" solution of WAG Bags was implemented without finishing that pesky environmental process. Sorry. No Forest Order. It's a "voluntary" program. You just don't have any other choice, but it's "voluntary".

The details are in this video Torching Toilets

Top
#37655 - 06/19/14 07:24 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
IF there is is one thing that I have learned from the different threads on the toilets: Implimenting any ideas/change involves a complicated process.

Does the same process apply to the dreaded lowering the quotas of persona allowed in a given area? (hold the vitriol about keeping the much maligned "flip flop" crowd out of their forest, folks -- I am posing this query to understand the process)
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

Top
#37656 - 06/19/14 07:44 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Bee]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Bee
IF there is is one thing that I have learned from the different threads on the toilets: Implimenting any ideas/change involves a complicated process.

Does the same process apply to the dreaded lowering the quotas of persona allowed in a given area? (hold the vitriol about keeping the much maligned "flip flop" crowd out of their forest, folks -- I am posing this query to understand the process)

Bee, by "process" are you referring to the "environmental review process" (NEPA)? Technically, it may apply to lowering quotas because there would be economic impacts to the local community and impacts to hikers who will be denied the chance to climb the highest peak in the lower 48. Hikers are unorganized and will do whatever they are told (except for a few groups who seem to support low quotas), but the local businesses could sue if NEPA was ignored and they were excluded from the decision making process.

Changing trailhead quotas is usually done through some sort of wilderness management plan, which is updated from time to time. NEPA is the framework for these efforts - the intent being to include the public in the decision making process. Watch for the upcoming SEKI Wilderness Stewardship Plan for example. That's going to be interesting.

Top
#37659 - 06/19/14 08:40 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Yes, I could not remember the name of the Environmental Review Process.

Just a prediction, here: if the easiest solution to a growing problem is lowering the quotas, that will probably be the one chosen. (again, I am not sure who, how, or when such decisions are made, but I would bet that the idea has been kicked around)
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

Top
#37662 - 06/19/14 10:02 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Bee]
Akichow Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 659
Loc: SF Bay Area
Woe is me. Inadvertently opened this thread that I've been studiously avoiding, and just had to go and compound my error by reading the last entries.

Okay, here is a thought and some info before I go bye bye again.

Leave no trace principles are something that I think many ascribe to because they are the right thing to do. I wish I saw more support for them on this board.

They are also, in some respects, backed by law. The following apply in national forests, for example.

Statute: 36 CFR 261.11 Sanitation
The following are prohibited:
(b) Possessing or leaving refuse, debris, or or litter in an exposed or unsanitary condition.
(c) Placing in or near a stream, lake, or other water any substance which does or may pollute a stream, lake, or other water.
(d) Failing to dispose of all garbage, including any paper, can, bottle, sewage, waste water, or material, or rubbish either by removal from the site or area or by depositing it into receptacles or at places provided for such purposes.
(e) Dumping of any refuse, debris, trash or litter brought as such from private property or from land occupied under permit, except, where a container, dump or similar facility has been provided and is identified as such, to receive trash generated from private lands or lands occupied under permit.
Statute: National Forests (36 C.F.R. part 200), National Grasslands (36 C.F.R. part 213), National Recreation Areas administered by the U.S. Forest Service (36 C.F.R. part 292), and National Wild and Scenic River System areas within Forests Service Jurisdiction (36 C.F.R. part 297)


Penalty: Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be fined not more than $500 and/or imprisoned for not more than six months. Under Title 18, maximum fine is $10,000 for companies and $5,000 for individuals.

Source: http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/criminal-provisions-us-criminal-code-title-18-and-other-statutes

Bye bye.


Top
#37669 - 06/19/14 11:30 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Akichow]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7740
Loc: Fresno, CA
Glad Karin checked back in. She does make a valid point. Steve Chamberlin's idea could indeed warrant a $500 fine. Putting unique identification on a Wag Bag might help in the short term by coercing people to carry them out. Leaving one behind is just plain littering, whether it is used or unused.

As for changing quotas: Maybe this was under the same District Ranger. A few years ago, Inyo did in fact apply day use restrictions to the North Fork (Mountaineers Route) unilaterally, without any notice or request for public input. In fact, it was one of the WPSMB Group Hikes that was cited as a reason that numbers of people needed to be limited.

Top
#37674 - 06/20/14 05:56 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Steve C]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Littering is a different citation, and of course that would apply to WAG bags just like potato chip bags. I suspect more people would just not use the WAG bag at all. Others would simply remove the label.

Legal enforcement of WAG Bags bothers me personally because of the arrogant way it was forced onto the public with a rush to torch the toilets. They should have followed the process through to the end and left options available.

If labels were to be used, I think the incentive approach would be more effective to motivate people. Charge a deposit and get a refund. That would encourage people to pick up bags. The idea of a bar code scanner at the trail head dumpster was mentioned. This doesn't solve the other issues with carrying human waste, but it might be an improvement on the current system. I suspect some people will be willing to forfeit the deposit rather than carry the bag out.

Funny, but the toilet system on Long's Peak RMNP doesn't seem to generate any discussion that I can find. The system seems to work just fine.

Top
#37675 - 06/20/14 06:01 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Akichow]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Akichow
Woe is me. Inadvertently opened this thread that I've been studiously avoiding, and just had to go and compound my error by reading the last entries.

Okay, here is a thought and some info before I go bye bye again.

Thanks for your input, Akichow. All perspectives add value to the discussion.

Top
#37676 - 06/20/14 07:02 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
Hobbes Offline


Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 135
Loc: The OC
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Charge a deposit and get a refund. That would encourage people to pick up bags.


I like that idea best of all. If the deposit was in the $5-10 range, then it would provide enough incentive for others to go up and collect the waste.

As for bags, I didn't see 50, but I did see over 10. And yes, in early June.

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >