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#37677 - 06/20/14 07:03 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
I had second thoughts about following up on the legalistic side of burning toilets, so I deleted my post to avoid the controversy while I'm off climbing Shasta this weekend.


Edited by SierraNevada (06/20/14 07:18 AM)

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#37682 - 06/20/14 08:20 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
SN,

In another forum, someone claimed they saw someone ticketed for not having a WAG Bag while on the MMWT. If they can ticket for not having one...than can serialize and fine. Who needs to adhere to no stinking NEPA.

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#37813 - 06/23/14 07:08 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
In another forum, someone claimed they saw someone ticketed for not having a WAG Bag while on the MMWT. If they can ticket for not having one...than can serialize and fine.

If you're referring to the JMT Yahoo group, the report was they were "turned back" for not having a WAG Bag, but no mention of being ticketed. Several reports of Rangers asking to see WAG Bags. I'm not a lawyer, but this seems like a search to me. I doubt if that would hold up in court for a system that has no legal basis to begin with. They're betting that people aren't going to drive back to fight it, so Rangers are basically cop, judge, and jury.

What a job they've taken on for themselves, "Your papers please, and do you have a bag of human excrement with you? Never mind, I can smell it. You are free to proceed."

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#37815 - 06/23/14 07:42 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 1023
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
"Your papers please, and do you have a bag of human excrement with you? Never mind, I can smell it. You are free to proceed."


could be a takeoff on a (formerly illegal) maryjane joke

I have used a WAG bag several times. Properly used it does not smell, either that or mine doesn't stink. Left out for a few days, that's different.

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#37823 - 06/23/14 10:02 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
SN,

It was not the group you mentioned. It was specifically on the MMWT.

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#37900 - 06/24/14 12:09 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
WB, can you post or PM the forum where you saw that report. That's a very interesting development to follow.

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#37911 - 06/24/14 03:32 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1565
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
I'd be very interested in seeing such a ticket. Known as a "federal notice of violation", it will have a little space marked "Offense charged" with check boxes marked "CFR" "USC" and "State Violation". Just like a traffic ticket, they require the issuer to cite chapter and verse of the violation in question, in this case either to the Federal Code of Regulations (CFR) the United States Code (USC) or the state law.

Its actually a constitutional requirement; since the ticket is in effect a summons to court, a "notice of violation", you have the right to know exactly what you are being charged with violating. There is an important difference between violating an erroneous statement on a web page and violating an actual law. And the fact remains, Inyo has no actual law (rule, regulation, forest order) requiring either carrying or using a wag bag.
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#37914 - 06/24/14 03:59 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Harvey Lankford]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford

I have used a WAG bag several times. Properly used it does not smell, either that or mine doesn't stink. Left out for a few days, that's different.

I just did Shasta this weekend where they make their own poop bags. They used to put kiddie litter in a paper bag with a target and a thick ziplock, now it was some kind of cedar sawdust and one cheap plastic ziplock. Let me tell you, Harvey, even yours would smell through that system.

I did my dooty in a rock hideaway just below the summit, where I discovered a big pile of sh!t and bags of poop popping out of the snow. It was difficult to set my target down around that crap, which made me more exposed to others on the summit. I hope I didn't show up hunched over in the background of someone's summit photo. I'm cringing at the thought of an Instagram face recognition notice, "you were tagged"

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#37924 - 06/24/14 07:37 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1565
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford

I have used a WAG bag several times. Properly used it does not smell, either that or mine doesn't stink. Left out for a few days, that's different.

I just did Shasta this weekend where they make their own poop bags. They used to put kiddie litter in a paper bag with a target and a thick ziplock, now it was some kind of cedar sawdust and one cheap plastic ziplock. Let me tell you, Harvey, even yours would smell through that system.

I did my dooty in a rock hideaway just below the summit, where I discovered a big pile of sh!t and bags of poop popping out of the snow. It was difficult to set my target down around that crap, which made me more exposed to others on the summit. I hope I didn't show up hunched over in the background of someone's summit photo. I'm cringing at the thought of an Instagram face recognition notice, "you were tagged"


Sounds like a great system at Shasta. Seriously: DIY wag bags? Who is the genius who instituted THAT program?
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#37932 - 06/24/14 09:22 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: saltydog]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Same 2 who instituted it on Whitney. But I tend to agree with pack out on Shasta for a couple reasons.

1. They also have a nice composting toilet at Horse Camp (8,000 ft) run by the Sierra Club. So people have an option to camp with a toilet.

2. The other camp area is Helen Lake (10,000 ft), which is covered in snow during peak climbing season. Only a helicopter could service a toilet at Helen Lake during peak season. It's too much cost and risk to use helicopters on a regular basis. So the toilets would end up just holding waste like the old ones on Whitney that were serviced with helicopters.

Since people have a choice, and toilets would be very difficult to maintain on the upper mountain, I think the pack out system is appropriate on Shasta. But it's not a one-size-fits-all solution for everywhere. Toilets make perfect sense on Whitney. Leave it to a good engineer, sanitary workers, and a few popular llamas. The Rangers have better things to do than pick up sh!t bags and hassle people over this.

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#37936 - 06/24/14 11:19 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1565
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
OK , but the DIY bags? What does the real WAG bag cost, a dollar?
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#37946 - 06/25/14 08:20 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: saltydog]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: saltydog
OK , but the DIY bags? What does the real WAG bag cost, a dollar?

Good point, Salty, a genuine WAG Bag or RestStop bag would be small fraction of the $20 Shasta summit fee. It makes you wonder where the fee money is going on both Shasta and Whitney.

DIY waste bags should at least use top quality materials like freezer-bag ziplocks and gel. Sawdust is lighter than kitty litter, but the gel in the commercial bags would be the best. A reasonable gel should be available in bulk somewhere if they want to keep making these.

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#37953 - 06/25/14 09:33 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1253
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
SN,

I wish I could give you that information. It was most likely here or the facebook whitney group.

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#37967 - 06/25/14 12:47 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: wazzu]
Mauricio Offline


Registered: 06/25/14
Posts: 8
Loc: CA
First, a disclaimer: I have not read the five pages of posts on this topic.

I hiked Mt Whitney yesterday, with my daughter, and was dismayed to see THAT many wag bags, pretty much EVERYWHERE!

It seems like someone has already suggested to serialize the bags, and I'd like to adhere to that idea. It occurred to me that if the bags have a serial number, with a barcode, and that number is attached to the permit, then when said bag is found, the owner of the permit gets a hefty fine. I really think that if you know you'll be fined a couple of thousand dollars for leaving a wag bag behind, we'll see no more of them.

I've also been to Mt Shasta, five times, although only one through the most popular route, Avalanche Gulch. I've still to see one abandoned bag over there. I'm sure there must be some at any given time, but the amount of bags that we saw from Trail Camp on up, was just overwhelming.

Mauricio

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#37984 - 06/25/14 07:18 PM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: Mauricio]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Mauricio, to get you up to speed on those 5 other pages and other loooong threads on this topic, people are leaving bags on the trail on the way up, and many of them are picked up on the way down, but not all of them. Nice wilderness experience.

Although these people could be cited for littering, there is no legal requirement to have or use a WAG Bag, so there's no citation to issue. Reason being, they aborted the environmental review process midstream, which means they can't issue a Forest Order, which requires a completed environmental review process. The details are in this video,

I just did Shasta this weekend, east side route, 12 people all weekend on the back side. I did find some crap just below the summit, but I agree, compliance has been good on my five climbs - three of those were on the crowded avy gulch route. I think it sinks in more when you're mountaineering on snow. It's obvious that you can't bury it and there's no way to get a toilet on those steep slopes. If people do leave a bag, its probably hidden in the rocks.


Edited by SierraNevada (06/25/14 07:24 PM)

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#38004 - 06/26/14 07:20 AM Re: Whitney Waste Solutions: WAG bags, toilets, or ??? [Re: SierraNevada]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Summarizing the "solutions" intent of this thread, only a handful of ideas have surfaced for discussion:

- Do nothing
- Install collection bins
- Replace the torched toilets
- Penalize non-compliance by tracking bags
- Create an incentive for compliance using a deposit
- Various combinations and iterations of above

What am I missing?

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