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Busted by California State Park Policeman
#38314 07/05/14 08:13 PM
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Wednesday five friends and myself did a shuttle hike of the Rubicon Trail along Lake Tahoe. We left one vehicle in D L Bliss State Park and rode in two vehicles to Emerald Bay where we started our hike. Our cars contained our camping gear and we would access our campsites in Bliss park at 2 PM. After our hike we piled six people into my wife's Highlander - three in the back seat, myself driving, and a couple riding together on the front passenger seat, the wife sitting on the husband's lap (the back section was filled with hiking and camping gear.)Since we were so crowded instead of going all the way to Emerald Bay we planned to drive the short distance to our campsites and drop off some of the people and gear. We were soon stopped by a California State Park Patrolman. His lights were flashing so I pulled over thinking he would drive right by me. Nope, he wrote the lady riding on the lap a ticket for being unsecured and very clearly informed me that I could have been cited for allowing her to ride there. Her husband pleaded for just a warning and I assured the patrolman that the end result would be the same: we left two passengers there by the road, I dropped off some gear and the rest of the passengers at our campsites, then returned to take the two drivers to their cars at Emerald Bay. The patrolman also warned us that any infractions at our campsites would result in our being ejected from the park. To put it mildly this guy was very unpleasant. I work in the service industry in Reno and we value our guests and do our best to create good will. It's good for business and allows guests as well as employees to enjoy the interactions.

We were/are all upset. I'm considering letters to the editor and complaints. I've sent a couple of emails inquiring where to complain. And I guess the lady can go to Court and ask for lenience. Our group are certainly not trouble makers. All are in our 50's and 60's except the lady who got the ticket who is in her 30's. We are hiking enthusiasts who mainly camped that night so we could get an early start on our hike up Mt Tallac the next morning without driving 90 minutes from Reno. Any thoughts? Or is it just "You broke the law, got caught, deal with it."

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38315 07/05/14 08:48 PM
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Hmmmm...building up to thee worst weekend in that area: 4th of July, lots of overtime, 10X the amount of tourists, lots of drinking....I would say yes, he was enforcing the letter of the law, but his leniency & tolerance were probably already at an all time low.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38317 07/05/14 11:41 PM
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Frank, you're lucky you didn't get leg cramps and need to get out of the car. A guy in Grand Canyon did that last year and was arrested.

The video has been removed from YouTube, but LiveLeak carries it. It's ugly -- I can hardly stand to even watch the video.

It takes a certain type of individual to do stuff like that. Not the finest characters in the world if you ask me.
For more commentary, Google: Grand Canyon driver arrest cramps

I am sorry it happened to you. Next time, pile the hiking/camping gear in everyone's laps, and the unbelted person should keep a low profile, and NOT sit in front.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38325 07/06/14 11:10 AM
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Its both, you broke the law, deal with that part of it, and the cop is a jerk, and you are entitled to deal with that, too. The law needs to be enforced but there is right way and a wrong way. You are entitled to complain about the guy's attitude and threats, and I would.

As for the GC incident: I think about 99 percent of the people in the NPS are great, but there are definitely some aholes among the law enforcement rangers. A couple of years ago in Cape Cod National Seashore, a couple of these geniuses were patrolling a beach in plainclothes, but making themselves pretty obvious. A beachgoer was arrested for warning someone against nude bathing, because the beach was being patrolled. Essentially the same information was posted on a Park Service sign at the entrance to the beach. The guy was charged with "interfering" with law enforcement. Its about getting busts and writing for guys that can't get real cop jobs.


Wherever you go, there you are.
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Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Steve C #38326 07/06/14 11:22 AM
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The guy probably doesn't get to use those flashing lights very often for an actual traffic stop. You "made his day."

The bears have been getting out of control at DL Bliss in recent years. IMHO, they really need to focus on working the campground - educating people, citing gross violators, and hazing the bears out of there. But to use those flashing lights, now that's a lot more fun!

At least it's a reasonable distance to court for you, Reno. Good luck. The PR route will probably backfire on you from diehard law-and-order black-and-white commentators.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38328 07/06/14 12:30 PM
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first you say this:
Originally Posted By: RenoFrank
Nope, he wrote the lady riding on the lap a ticket for being unsecured and very clearly informed me that I could have been cited for allowing her to ride there.
emphasis mine.

and then you say this.
Originally Posted By: RenoFrank
I work in the service industry in Reno and we value our guests and do our best to create good will. It's good for business and allows guests as well as employees to enjoy the interactions.

seems to me he could have hit you harder, but chose not to.

seems somewhat ungrateful to me.

nobody likes getting caught doing what they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
smithb #38329 07/06/14 12:52 PM
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I go back and forth on issues like these. On the one hand, you were doing something you shouldn't have been. On the other hand, the writing of a citation isn't going to do anything other than make the people he works for some money, which is the point behind law enforcement these days anyway.


One day I'd like to hike the entire John Muir Trail and not leave a single footprint. -Randy Morgenson
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38333 07/06/14 01:36 PM
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Frank, I'm with those who say that you didn't get cited, so what is your complaint?

Was the woman wearing a seat belt? No.

I've been cited for that.
Why should she get off?

It appears that your gripe is that you guys begged for a warning, and didn't get your way.

You were locals, you knew the law, you knew the area. Lotsa windy roads. Someone sitting unsecured on top of another is very subject to sliding around, potentially into you, definitely blocking your view of the rearview mirror.

I think you got off easy.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Ken #38334 07/06/14 02:05 PM
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You got very off easy: In Queensland the fine is now $330, considering changing to $660.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38340 07/06/14 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
The PR route will probably backfire on you from diehard law-and-order black-and-white commentators.


Yes, it seems you're right. My experience in the service industry is not to unconditionally gung ho enforce any and all infractions. To tactfully find common ground and a solution that benefits all can be the result of level headed mutually respectful discussion. I like to think that most outdoor hikers and campers share a sense of camaraderie. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these unyielding hard asses.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38343 07/06/14 09:20 PM
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The only traffic infraction I was ever able to get out of was when I was ticketed for making a U-turn in front of the school the first week of my daughter's Kindergarten. All the years, I had never noticed the No-U-Turn signs.

Made the turn, cop rolled up on his cycle. While writing the ticket, my 4-year-old is dancing around saying "Daddy, what's the matter?" In the process, she tripped and fell off the curb ...right into the mud.

Cop continues to write the ticket. I signed it, and then had to return home with little girl, find clean clothes, and take her back to school late.

I told that story to the judge with a smile on my face, and finished with, "Don't you think, just once in a while, that a warning would be sufficient?"

It worked.

Good luck, Frank. Your passenger isn't four, and she didn't fall into the mud. wink

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Steve C #38345 07/06/14 10:30 PM
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There is another aspect to this 'infraction' that has not been discussed: the visual results of accidents involving just that one time someone did not wear a seatbelt.

Unforgettable

Anyone in the traffic enforcement, emergency room, or post-mortum backroom has had their psyche shaken to the core by one of these scenes.

I know I have -- more than once (the only thing I dreaded more than a suicide was a seatbeltless victim catapulted through a windshield)

Perhaps your ticketing cop has seen his fair share.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
RenoFrank #38349 07/07/14 08:13 AM
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Consider yourself fortunate. I am from Ca with Ca plates on my car. I drive through Oregon 3 times per year to visit my mom in Idaho. Over the past 6 years that I have been making this trip, I have been pulled iver 3 times by Oregon state police:once for going "50ish" in a 55 zone and obstructing traffic (the cop was the only car behind me), once for speeding 58 in a 55 zone (semis were passing me of course), and once for violating the dew line (who knew that's what they called the stripe on the outside of the road?) when I pulled over to let a cop by. I got a little snippy with the cop who pulled me over for speeding and he admitted to what I already knew. He pulled me over based on my plates and car. I fit a profile of a drug mule evidently. So, look at it this way at least you weren't being pulled over to simply be harrassed. You were in violation of a well known part of the vehicle code.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Bee #38371 07/07/14 04:26 PM
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Bee, with all respect, I have seen enough police work (ex fire/EMT) to be able to recognize a cop who is sincerely concerned for safety and one who is enjoying being a jerk. The sincerely concerned one will say something like: I'm gonna have to cite someone in this situation, so I'm gonna let you go with just a ticket for the lady, cause that way its not a moving violation, but please folks, I don't want anyone in my park to end up like like some I have seen doing this, OK? The one who is enjoying being a jerk will say something like but if I catch you drinking or violating the rules in that campsite or looking at the squirrels funny, you are gone from my park.


Wherever you go, there you are.
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Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38410 07/08/14 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
The guy probably doesn't get to use those flashing lights very often for an actual traffic stop. You "made his day."

The bears have been getting out of control at DL Bliss in recent years. IMHO, they really need to focus on working the campground - educating people, citing gross violators, and hazing the bears out of there. But to use those flashing lights, now that's a lot more fun!

At least it's a reasonable distance to court for you, Reno. Good luck. The PR route will probably backfire on you from diehard law-and-order black-and-white commentators.


As anyone who has volunteered to do trail patrols and carries a radio will tell you, the forest/park LE has more than enough opportunities to flash their lights.

If you break the law, which Reno Frank and his passenger did, you should be prepared to pay for the mistake. The only thing you can do is say yes sir and no sir and hope to end up with a warning. Now, all Reno Frank's passenger can hope for is the officer doesn't show up in court.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38422 07/08/14 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
As anyone who has volunteered to do trail patrols and carries a radio will tell you, the forest/park LE has more than enough opportunities to flash their lights.

State Park Rangers don't get many opportunities to pull people over with the flashing lights for traffic stops. There's only a few miles of state park roads in any of those campgrounds - DL Bliss, Emerald Bay or Sugar Pine Point and the speed limit is about 15 mph. Patrolling state HW 89 is getting into CHP territory, city cops and sheriff's respect that boundary. So no, state park Rangers don't get to hit the "rollers" very often for traffic stops. I'd bet it was a big thrill for this Robo-cop, even if it was just a seat belt violation on a quick shuttle ride.

Salty put it well - the Ranger's attitude comes through even in writing, and it doesn't seem to be about their safety. A reasonable judge can see through this a mile away, and can probably remember the days before seat belts. It will be interesting if Reno's friend pursues it in court, but these things usually aren't worth the effort.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38467 07/09/14 08:43 AM
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Condescending nonsense...this and the previous post.

These people take an enormous amount of abuse and are at risk whenever they stop people. All we have heard is one side of this story. So what if they flash their lights. How exactly are they supposed to get someone to pull over? Reno Frank broke the law and the officer was kind enough to let him go with a warning, for which he was not grateful.

Again, listen to the radio traffic some weekend in a national forest, national park or state park and get back to me.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38481 07/09/14 03:16 PM
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It's simple, Reno got pulled over by Barney Fife (Don Knots) with no Andy Griffith to explain the big picture to him. Any of us can choose to be a professional, or a professional jerk at our job.


Last edited by SierraNevada; 07/09/14 03:17 PM.
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38484 07/09/14 04:49 PM
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WB and SN , you be nice to each other

both parties are guilty. The perp was wrong, and expected special treatment. The cop was a hotdog.

I know. I have had several car cops stop me over the years and just issued warnings. But once, I was pulled by the boat police. Hit the gas 20 feet from a Resume Speed sign exiting the marina and was chased down and ticketed. I was technically wrong, but good grief. Made the mistake of telling the boat cop it was harassment. You can believe that when I went to court to contest the ticket, that the judge heard about that.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Harvey Lankford #38489 07/09/14 07:14 PM
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Harvey, there's no debate about guilt. Reno freely admits it. The debate is about appropriate discretionary law enforcement for a violation of the vehicle code. The lady sitting on her husband's lap presented ZERO danger to society on this 5 minute shuttle ride.

Our court system is overwhelmed with drug dealers, robbers, burglars, drunk drivers, and violent offenders. Is it a good use of limited law enforcement resources for a State Park Ranger to ruin peoples' vacations over a shuttle ride without a seat belt? Of course he has the authority to write 2 citations and threaten to kick them out of the park, but he does not have an obligation to do that. This citation is entirely discretionary. It provides no public safety benefit- it's purely punitive.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38490 07/09/14 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
it's purely punitive.

Agreed, just like my boat ticket!

The Park officer who let me off for 70 mph in 45 mph Glacier Nat Park used her discretion to just warn me.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38491 07/09/14 09:22 PM
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SN: actually, I don't think the debate is about discretion either. I think everybody recognizes that the cop exercised appropriate discretion as far as issuing the ticket. He could have cited both the driver and the passenger, or neither, and cited only the passenger. Fair call. Maybe not where you would have drawn the line, but no rational court is going to say he abused his discretion on it. The issue as I see it is whether that gives him the right to be abusive in other ways: being generally rude and making threats. I don't think it does. And the fact that he may put up with a lot of crap from other people doesn't excuse it either.

I don't see anyone arguing that his rudeness is a defense to the ticket he did issue: just that its cause for a complaint about his general approach and the making of threats on things that had nothing to do with the traffic stop or the ticket. THAT is what was CS about this encounter, and just cause for a complaint.


Wherever you go, there you are.
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Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
saltydog #38493 07/09/14 10:14 PM
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The discretion I refer to is common sense, not legalistic. If he wrote a citation, or even 2 citations, in a professional manner without threatening to kick them out of the park like little kids, we wouldn't be discussing this at all.

Last edited by SierraNevada; 07/09/14 10:36 PM.
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38499 07/10/14 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
If he wrote a citation, or even 2 citations, in a professional manner without threatening to kick them out of the park like little kids, we wouldn't be discussing this at all.

the only person who was actually there was the author. and the group is discussing, nay arguing, about what may or may not have happened based on what the author would have you believe had happened. without video or audio it is impossible to know exactly what happened. and even if all of us had been there - each of us would have a different story.

i am certain that the individuals in this video each told a different story about what happened.
these "hikers" are embarrassing.

i sympathize. i have had cramps too. but risk getting arrested or tased or shot by disobeying a law enforcement officer's request to stay in the vehicle - never.

and in my book, the notion we should support a lawbreaker merely because he hikes is laughable.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38500 07/10/14 07:02 AM
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wbtravis,

I agree with your posts on this subject. That's my two cents. thanks


Lynnaroo
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
smithb #38501 07/10/14 07:38 AM
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The video does not show the man getting legs cramps or how politely (or not) he requested to get out of his car. All you see is the man being arrested and almost tasered on the hood of his car in front of his shocked family.

As with Reno's story, we don't know what led up to either encounter. I tend to believe Reno, but I admit I'm biased toward a group of hikers on a 5-min shuttle ride having fun on vacation over a Park Ranger threatening to kick them out of the park. Others tend to support law enforcement for almost anything they do.

This thread is a great example of how our internal perspectives influence our external perception of things. We fill in the gaps of missing information and make assumptions based accordingly. This happens to all of us whether we admit it or not.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
smithb #38502 07/10/14 07:46 AM
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perspective is worth having:

most inappropriate citation for littering, ever

and the "warning" for no insurance seemed not appreciated.

Frank??? smile

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38503 07/10/14 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Harvey, there's no debate about guilt. Reno freely admits it. The debate is about appropriate discretionary law enforcement for a violation of the vehicle code. The lady sitting on her husband's lap presented ZERO danger to society on this 5 minute shuttle ride.

Our court system is overwhelmed with drug dealers, robbers, burglars, drunk drivers, and violent offenders. Is it a good use of limited law enforcement resources for a State Park Ranger to ruin peoples' vacations over a shuttle ride without a seat belt? Of course he has the authority to write 2 citations and threaten to kick them out of the park, but he does not have an obligation to do that. This citation is entirely discretionary. It provides no public safety benefit- it's purely punitive.


Now you're really arguing about the need for seat belt and helmet laws that only protect people from themselves.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
2Old4This #38505 07/10/14 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
This citation is entirely discretionary. It provides no public safety benefit- it's purely punitive.


Oh. Wow. I think I better just use my reverse button and back out of this thread -- pronto (otherwise I may have to delete or edit myself)


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
Harvey Lankford #38506 07/10/14 08:06 AM
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Harvey,

We only have one side of that story...Reno Frank's.

I have had more than my share of police contacts...I misspent my youth in Philadelphia. Some of the cops were ok...others were less than ok. I have been cited speeding when going the speed limit on freeway. With all that said, I appreciate the job LE does and do not particular care for the condescension. These people have a hard job made harder by the people they come into contact.

This officer showed discretion by issuing only one ticket where he could have issued at least two.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38512 07/10/14 08:30 AM
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SN,

Punitive...what's wrong with punitive? Reno Frank's passenger was cited for breaking a law, that I'm sure she knew she was breaking. They took a chance, got caught and got punished.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38535 07/10/14 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
SN,
Punitive...what's wrong with punitive? Reno Frank's passenger was cited for breaking a law, that I'm sure she knew she was breaking. They took a chance, got caught and got punished.

WBT, by "punitive" I meant that the citation had no other purpose. The 5-minute lap ride "menace to society" was over. I guess all citations are "punitive" at least in part.

I'm glad to read you have a broader perspective on things based on personal experience. I grew up with an Andy Griffith wise old cop next door and it kind of set a standard of professionalism that I expect from law enforcement. I see it in most CHP officers and people that are naturals at law enforcement. Unfortunately, not all of them can handle the authority as effectively.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38554 07/11/14 10:59 AM
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SN,

Nice strawman argument...who said anything about a menace to society. This was an infraction, not a misdemeanor or felony.

If you do something like this and are caught...just pay the fine. You made a mistake, don't compound it by seeking your 15 minutes...like the PS Tram hikers stuck out after going up in 105 MPH winds when the tram closed, the meth doers in Orange Co. or any of the groups getting stuck at the top of San Antonio Falls near Mt. Baldy.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38626 07/14/14 07:41 AM
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WBT, "menance to society" is simple perspective on the 5 minute shuttle ride with a wife on her husband's lap. He'll pay his ticket or perhaps tell the story in court, that's his right if he wants to exercise it. The real issue Reno and others are complaining about is how the State Park Ranger was unprofessional and threatened to kick the group out of his park. It clearly disturbed his group for the weekend and beyond.

Comparing Reno's lap ride with meth head search and rescue? Really? I don't know RenoFrank, but I would be insulted if I was him.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38636 07/14/14 09:42 AM
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SN,

I was talking about the 15 minutes of notoriety, where people make mistakes then have to talk about them. Those are just examples. Obviously, you don't like my examples of people who have done some foolish things then compounded their problems by reliving them. Sometimes the best thing to do is just keep your mouth shut. If you don't, you should not be surprised that people do not agree with your take.

Again, we only have one side of this story. I generally do not make judgment with one side of a story. You, on the other portray the officer as an incompetent idiot...see Barney Fife.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38650 07/14/14 07:02 PM
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WBT, I think your examples are excellent of people doing really stupid, costly, and dangerous stuff such as the meth heads who got stuck on a ledge and launched a huge search and rescue mission.

Back to Reno's story, a wife sitting on her husband's lap for a 5 minute shuttle ride back to the trailhead in a state park is more like going 16 mph in a 15 zone. It's petty.

If a cop wants to write a petty citation like that, oh well, but then to compound it with disturbing threats that ruin a groups camping trip, that's really unprofessional. Some of us have higher expectations for our cops than that.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38652 07/14/14 07:26 PM
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Here's a real problem that Tahoe State Park Rangers need to be dealing with instead of petty lap riders on a 5 minute shuttle ride:

Tahoe "Drought Bears" Euthanized

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38669 07/15/14 08:40 AM
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SN,

You obviously don't get it. It's not about the methheads or PS Tram riders. It about people having their 15 minutes. Reno Frank got his here. These other folks in the papers and television news. They got our sympathy until the entire story came out.

Here, we have but one side. I will not chastise and belittle LE until I have the whole story. They have a tough job.

The bear story is as irrelevant as Barney Fife.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38701 07/15/14 03:17 PM
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Wow, you and I must really be "famous" if a post on the WZ qualifies for that. We've had some good debates back and forth on things.

I think I "get it" just fine, thanks, but we do see things differently. To me, this is about the pettiness of the citation, and if you combine that pettiness with the unprofessional bravado of threatening to kick the group out of the park, I think Barney Fife becomes a good example of what Reno had to deal with that day. More facts might change my take on this, but that's what it looks like to me.

As for the out of control bears, I bring that up to illustrate the current situation that should be a much higher priority for a Tahoe State Park Ranger. Law enforcement is about priority use of limited resources, which requires judgment, not blind support of everything cops do.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38703 07/15/14 03:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 595
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 595
SierraNevada -

I have great admiration for your ability to suffer fools.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38718 07/16/14 08:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,253
W
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W
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,253
SN,

Where did I say I supported LE. I just said they had a hard job.

All I have said is the whole story is not available and since it is not I cannot not make a judgment.

Kevin,

There you go projecting, again.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
wbtravis #38728 07/17/14 07:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,158
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,158
WBT, I wasn't referring to you or anyone specifically, just the trend for people to support whatever cops do.

We're down to repeating the fact that we don't have enough facts. At least we agree on that. I just want it to end respectfully. Thanks.

Re: Busted by California State Park Policeman
SierraNevada #38733 07/17/14 08:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,253
W
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W
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,253
We agree to disagree, which is fine with me.

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