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#39514 - 08/07/14 08:44 PM Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners.
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 719
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
Well, this report might fire off another ultra-light...be prepared debate.

http://www.sierrawave.net/31379/mono-sar-aids-ultra-marathoners/

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#39517 - 08/07/14 09:15 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Bob West]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
I like the part in the article where it mentions that they were caught "off guard".

Ya think? It has only been monsoon season for the last couple of weeks -- I guess they didn't get the memo.

I will not even think to insult the UL crowd by including this idiocy in their group.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#39518 - 08/07/14 10:06 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Bee]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
Wow! I backpacked that route about 20 years ago, and spent 5 days hiking the distance! And they were long days of walking, too! Some days there were multiple 1000' passes to climb and descend. It's really remote back in there.

By the time the runners got to Paiute Meadow, they were 2/3 the way through. Too bad they didn't try it in July when it was dry.

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#39519 - 08/07/14 10:11 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Bee]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1488
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
Originally Posted By: Bee
I like the part in the article where it mentions that they were caught "off guard".

Ya think? It has only been monsoon season for the last couple of weeks -- I guess they didn't get the memo.

I will not even think to insult the UL crowd by including this idiocy in their group.


Good thing thing they weren't in the State Park. Would have been ticketed for RWS for sure.
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!

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#39520 - 08/07/14 10:24 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: saltydog]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
I wonder if using the mommy button was part of the contingency plan for not being prepared in the first place.
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#39523 - 08/07/14 11:51 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Bee]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7075
Loc: Fresno, CA
What's RWS? Running with Spot? without seatbelts? smile

I wonder if they realized just how rugged the country is back there.

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#39528 - 08/08/14 07:36 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Steve C]
+ @ti2d Online


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 750
Loc: Oh Cursed, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
...I wonder if they realized just how rugged the country is back there.


I bet they do now!!!

Stupidity should be painful...


My take on...

RWS: Running while stupid or Running with stupid or Really Weird $h!+..
_________________________
Have fun and enjoy the Gr8 Yd Opn.

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#39529 - 08/08/14 07:47 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: + @ti2d]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1488
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
PosAtt got it:

Riding Without Seatbelt --> Running While Stupid
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!

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#39530 - 08/08/14 08:38 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: Bob West]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
As I hike along the PCT between Vincent Gulch and Mt. Islip, I am always amazed at how little the trail running crowd carries. Their de facto statement is "if I screw the pooch, I am counting on you to help me". This is an area where many train for the ACH 100 late in the summer.

When they do run it, they ugly up the wilderness with plastic tape so these people don't have to stop and figure out where they are. They also put logs across trail junctions, which can confuse hikers who are still using the trails during the race.

Two things about this rescue, it has been monsoon season and this is the Sierra where the weather is not always what Fritz says it is going to be. I guess in this day and age of entitlement, you hit a SPOT for your free to you helicopter ride rather than carry what is necessary.

They should bear the entire cost of this rescue.

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#39537 - 08/08/14 01:46 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1055
Loc: NorCal
This is a perfect example of the difference between ultralight and unprepared. All they needed was minimal shelter and a jacket to survive 24 hrs. Ultralight gear makes this so easy. Here's one simple solution of many:

Cuben fiber tarp Shelter 4 oz
Nanopuff Primaloft pullover 9 oz
Waterproof breathable jacket 6 oz

19 ounces total, easily fits in a hip pack. Like carrying a 16 oz water bottle.












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#39540 - 08/08/14 05:04 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Online


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 186
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: Steve C
...
By the time the runners got to Paiute Meadow, they were 2/3 the way through. Too bad they didn't try it in July when it was dry.


Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
This is a perfect example of the difference between ultralight and unprepared. All they needed was minimal shelter and a jacket to survive 24 hrs. Ultralight gear makes this so easy.
...


"Ultralite" is a philosophy applied to a pretrip cost/benefit tradeoff (of dollars, pounds and judgement in when to cancel/bail vs preparedness). "Unprepared" is a call made in hindsight. If these clowns had gone in a dry part of July as SteveC suggests, they might have been "prepared" and 19 ounces "ultralight-cooler" than if they had followed SierraNevada's hindsight suggestion. Ultralight is a game of trading off preparedness, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and people will even disagree on when and where to place the line between win and lose. I think you should make the call from a viewpoint before you leave the trailhead. From then and there, a helicopter ride out is a lose. (After I'm sitting along the trail hypothermic I might consider a helicopter ride out a win.) These guys turned out to be ultralight -and- unprepared.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#39542 - 08/08/14 05:59 PM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1055
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: dbd
"Unprepared" is a call made in hindsight.

Prepare, its an action verb that is done beforehand, by definition. How well you prepared can be evaluated in hindsight, but that's too late. If their ultra-light gear was inadequate, then there's a debate to be had, but if they didn't carry ultra-light gear, then they are simply unprepared.

In my opinion, an ultra-marathoner doing a long distance training run over a 24-hr period in the wilderness should carry basic survival gear regardless of the weather forecast. Maybe a little more than I describe, like rain pants, maybe a bivy sack, or maybe a little less if conditions are perfect. During a race, there are checkpoints and support, that's different.

To go without gear is not ultra-light, its infinitely-light and totally unPREpared.


Edited by SierraNevada (08/08/14 06:07 PM)

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#39562 - 08/10/14 09:25 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Trail running is an ultralight sport. Most who partake have 20 oz. of water in their right hand and 20 oz. of water on their hip...this is my experience on trails that see a lot of use by trail runners.

That's it!

What they say by this, I am counting everyone to take care of me when things go bad.

The list of this and that are anathema to most trail runners. They want light and lighter...to them this is anything but. Also, If you get caught above 10,000' in rain and plummetting to below freezing in nylon shorts and t-shirt and trail runners, a 9 oz. Primaloft puffy ain't gonna cut it, along with e-bivy it most likely would get you through the night. I know when my system is run down, I've got a problem getting warmed up without getting into a 15 F bag.

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#39567 - 08/11/14 04:08 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: wbtravis]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 578
Loc: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
...What they say by this, I am counting everyone to take care of me when things go bad.


What a blessing it is to have you on this BB. No matter the mishap, you can instantaneously devine everyone's motives, impune, and summarily dismiss them. Ever considered a career on the radio, TV? If not, perhaps a call to Limbaugh's or Coulter's press agents?

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#39568 - 08/11/14 06:44 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1055
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Trail running is an ultralight sport. Most who partake have 20 oz. of water in their right hand and 20 oz. of water on their hip...this is my experience on trails that see a lot of use by trail runners. That's it!

I'll try again, going without gear is not "ultralight". It's called "unprepared." The term "Ultralight" is a lighter version of something that works just as well as the heavier version. It typical means a base weight in the 5-12 lbs range, not ZERO. Just saying that ultralight backpacking gear would be a good survival kit for ultramarathon runners on long training runs without the support of a race organization.

Ultramarathon runners typically wear a vest with room for the gear I described above. Some runners you see on the trail might even be carrying a few survival items stored out of view. Here's a typical vest with 12 liter capacity and it comes with a "survival blanket" and a whistle. It's clear from looking at the gear outlets online they are thinking about survival gear. They could learn a lot by crossing over with ultralight backpacker gear.


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#39569 - 08/11/14 07:48 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: KevinR]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Ok Kevin,

They are unprepared for any emergency when something goes wrong, who takes care of them? Them? They don't got anything how can they take care of themselves. Who does that leave?

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#39570 - 08/11/14 07:59 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
SN,

Are you saying trail runners do not have an ultra light philosophy? The evidence is to the contrary, your photo being one piece of evidence. On the whole, they go as light as possible...prepared or unprepared. Most appear to be unprepared to handle any emergency.

If you take the entire population of trail runners in the So Cal mountains, you will see 1 to 2% with that type of pack. Most have bottles of water in both hands or one in a fanny pack, one in hand.

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#39571 - 08/11/14 08:01 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: KevinR]
Marty Offline


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 73
Loc: CT
One of the runners was in stage two hypothermia, when shivering stops and unconsciousness comes next. Kudos to SPOT and SAR on saving them.

Those runners are, no doubt, very fit athletes for whom this run was perhaps 'doable' under dry conditions. Of course dry can become cold and wet very quickly in the Sierra. The fact that they brought a SPOT indicates that they had some doubts or concerns, perhaps about the weather or maybe injury. If a broken ankle caused this rescue we probably wouldn't be so energized in this discussion. Still, other than carrying the SPOT it would appear that they took no additional, reasonable precautions. This shows a poor risk assessment and a somewhat cavalier attitude toward their would be rescuers.

Does anyone know if the runners made any kind of post-rescue report? I'd be curious to read their take on this.

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#39574 - 08/11/14 09:20 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Online


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 186
Loc: San Diego
The news release in the original post doesn't tell us what the rescued were carrying. All we know is that they were not prepared for what they encountered. That can happen at 0 pounds, at 5-12 pounds and at 70-80 pounds.

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
...
The term "Ultralight" is a lighter version of something that works just as well as the heavier version.
...


That's a great concept, but few people who drink the ultralight kool-aid practice that or are capable of practicing that. (People who look for shortcuts tend to take them.) The example of a tarp tent shows this. A Cuben tarp may "work just as well" as a heavier cotton canvas tarp, but few people can use a tarp adequately in blowing rain and snow. The evaluation of "just as well" seems to happen in the weather on the trail for some who think they are practicing ultralight. Tarps may be "good enough" for people who are practiced in their use, but that isn't sold in the stores with the gear. Ultralight works best for people with the experience, judgement and discipline to watch the weather and cut and run when conditions might exceed the capacity of their experience and gear. Few of our ultralight advocates market those qualities as well as they market their gear picks and lists.

Dale B Dalrymple

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#39577 - 08/11/14 11:03 AM Re: Mono SAR rescues ultra-marathoners. [Re: dbd]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
What one's opinion is, is probably created by what one is exposed to.

I happen to hang out with the crowd that thru-hikes the PCT, which has been the incubator for much of ultralight philosophy, starting with PCT luminary Ray Jardine.

Take the example of "Warner Springs Monty" Tam, whose base weight is famously under 5 lbs (not including food, water, hiking poles).

He has completed the 2,600 mile PCT four times. There has been NO weather condition that he has not encountered, and he has not had to be rescued, because he was PREPARED.

http://www.trailjournals.com/about.cfm?trailname=14986

Or "Flyin Brian" Robinson, who has completed the PCT, AT, and CDT, all in one year, over 7,000 miles of hiking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Robinson_(hiker)

Now an ultramarathoner, he set the 2008 record in the insane event known as the Barkley Marathons:

"Since the race's inception in 1986, only fourteen runners out of about 800 have completed the 100 mile race" One year, 30 out of 35 did not make the first checkpoint, 2 miles.

http://www.metropulse.com/stories/features/barkley-marathons-toughest-race-youve-never-heard

How did he do this? He was prepared. I know both of these guys, and more prepared guys you've never met.

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