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#40516 - 10/06/14 10:15 PM San Gabriel Mountains National Monument?
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7583
Loc: Fresno, CA
It appears wilderness groups are campaigning:

San Gabriel Valley Tribune

San Gabriel forum

from CORBA (off road bicyclists): Protect Mountain Bike Access

Hesperia Lawmaker To Protest San Gabriel Mountains 'Land Grab'

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#40517 - 10/06/14 10:19 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Steve C]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7583
Loc: Fresno, CA
I have watched Yosemite severely limit access to Half Dome; seen the Death Valley Ultramarathon ended; seen Inyo N.F. burn Whitney toilets and require people to carry poop in their packs.

So you can guess where my opinion lies.

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#40518 - 10/06/14 10:31 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Steve C]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Steve C
I have watched Yosemite severely limit access to Half Dome; seen the Death Valley Ultramarathon ended; seen Inyo N.F. burn Whitney toilets and require people to carry poop in their packs.



1. Limiting access to Half Dome: Do the math. In recent years, the death toll on that attraction was steeply on the rise, with a shocking climax in 2009. The "recoveries" and rescues were taking their toll both financially & otherwise. Let the people have their way? Can we all pause and take a moment to remember what the El Capitan meadow used to look like when there was unlimited access...it barely resembled a piece of nature.

2. Seen the Death Valley Ultramarathon ended: let's all spell it out L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y (did I spell it correctly?) take a moment to review some of the astronimical lawsuits that have been pursued when accidents, deaths occur on public lands (a good enough reason to not allow the San Gabes to be protected? Not good enough in my book, because even without the designation, a lawsuit would still occur if someone gets hurt)

3. Burning the Whitney Toilets: My, how our memories become selective over time. I recall horrendous overflow, folks crapping around the outhouses when they overflowed. A sanitation and ecological nightmare. Am I against composting toilets? Nope -- Just the situation as it existed at the time.

Guess you know where I stand.

I seem to recall skiing in a National Park (Yosemite) in the recent years, so all of the hysteria about blocking bikes, etc., most likely will not pan out. They allow JEEPS to to rumble through the Monument Valley (which is a National Monument) thus, its most likely that BIKES would not be offensive on Baldy area.
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#40520 - 10/07/14 01:10 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Bee]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2243
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Mountain bikers in general are willing to pitch in and have working bees to improve trails. There are, however, a few hoons.

Here is a trail in Sequoia NP that would be a great trail for bikers. After 3400 feet of gain, they deserve the downhill. Even though it is in a NP, Colony Mill Road, if maintained by bikers, would be an asset for hikers, too.


Open this map full screen.
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#40522 - 10/07/14 08:45 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Steve C]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Follow the money...Ag doesn't have any, Interior does.

There is enormous stress put on the Angeles NF front country. Ice House Canyon and the Mt. Baldy crowded trailheads are considered secondary by the forest and do not get much love. There focus is in and Hwy. 39. This is warranted if you listen to the radio traffic any weekend.

Over the last ten years, the Telegraph Wash area has been destroy 3 times by heavy storms and an avalanche at its base. The forest service has done absolutely nothing to repair this heavily traveled section. Now, it and Cedar Canyon are in need of repair both along the Ice House and Chapman Trails and it is not going to happen. One major storm and we could lose this area to hikers.

I support the move.

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#40577 - 10/10/14 07:23 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1137
Loc: NorCal
Seems to be me this is just another problem related to an underfunded National Forest Service. You can see the symptoms at Inyo, Tahoe, and elsewhere. Do we have to make every piece of federal land a National Park to get adequate funding?

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#40580 - 10/10/14 08:31 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
It is not a national park...it is a national monument with crave outs. Which include the Mt. Baldy and Wrightwood areas. The map I have seen does not include these crave outs in any detail.


Edited by wbtravis (10/10/14 08:34 AM)

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#40583 - 10/10/14 10:37 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
Joe the Hiker Offline


Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 32
Loc: SC
I find the boundary a bit weird (at-least on the map I saw). It encased the west and east fork of the SGR and it encased the baldy/icehouse area. What I find weird is that it encases the back of the San Gabriels which is pretty remote, an area that does not become flocked with flip flop hikers each weekend. Yet it does not encases the front range! It's the front range (like Eaton Canyon and the Santa Anita Canyons) that need the "help" the NM status will provide.
So, interesting boundary...
I have mixed feelings on the subject and I see both points of view.
[img]http://www.trbimg.com/img-54381461/turbine/la-me-g-monument/750/750x422[/img]

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#40590 - 10/11/14 08:18 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1137
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
It is not a national park...it is a national monument with crave outs. Which include the Mt. Baldy and Wrightwood areas. The map I have seen does not include these crave outs in any detail.

WB, its not the designation that matters to my point. NM status is the usual first step before NP status, Death Valley for example. Whether it's NM or NP, the area would change jurisdiction from the NFS to the NPS. My point is that the Forest Service is underfunded. I think you'll agree.

I'm not against this proposal, I haven't studied it enough to develop an opinion worth posting. But I lived in Wrightwood for a year, long enough to realize the need to manage this area better. At most every trailhead, I recall graffiti sprayed on rocks, trash, vandalized bathrooms, and broken glass from car break-ins. The closer the trailhead is to LA, the worse it was. Is it still that bad?

My point is that the root cause of the existing situation is due to a lack of funding for the Forest Service to properly manage heavily used recreational areas. Also, the NFS mission and authority is more geared toward economic development of forest resources than resource protection. The NFS needs a major reorg to refocus their mission to keep up with the times, and establish adequate reliable funding. We shouldn't have to move every popular area to the NPS to solve the real problem.

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#40591 - 10/11/14 09:26 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: SierraNevada]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
SN,

You can never say never but I do not believe a national park designation would happen here. Even if it did, the world would not end. We would all pony up a yearly fee, like the Adventure Pass, to continue to use these mountains...or we would head out to the San Bernardinos, which butt right up to the new NM. Personally, I like the San Bernardinos more.

Actually, there is a big difference between the Angeles front country and AC Highwayland. Although I live in the shadow of Cucamonga Peak and am 30 minute ride from Ski Hut Trail, I hike a lot between Vincent Gulch and Islip Saddle. There is not near as much graffiti as the front country, the trails are in much better shape and I do not remember seeing auto glass on the ground the last few weekends. The reason for all this is the lack of a glamour peak in the area...you can get to Baldy but it hard to get to and an extremely hard hike. What is different is the Korean Ex-Pat community has found it, so it is more crowded than it has been in the past.

The Adventure Pass was a great way to fund these area, users paying to use, but it is effectively no more. No one is issuing tickets for violations because how do you fine someone for not having a pass when the standard is what the violator says it is...damn, I did not use the bathroom or the picnic tablet, how come you ticketed me in the Ice House Canyon Parking Lot?

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#40595 - 10/11/14 11:06 AM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1137
Loc: NorCal
I concur with you WB, it may never turn into a National Park, I just mistyped that, but my point is more about the Forest Service as an organization. They should be able to administer this area more effectively. Its not just funding, its the mission, history, and culture of the NFS - quite different than the NPS.

Perhaps the NFS should have more special zone areas like the Whitney Zone where they can charge user fees dedicated to management of that area. A small fee can make a big difference. Its basically how the Park Service operates. They should also do more to team up with volunteer organizations and integrate efforts to make improvements without so much red tape.

I'd rather see a restructuring of the Forest Service than a constant transfer of land over to the Park Service. I realize that's a pipe dream in an era of sequestration and partisan paralysis, but its what really needs to happen.

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#40596 - 10/11/14 02:42 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
SanGorgonioHiker Offline


Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 66
Loc: Southern CA
The immediate problem: use federal funding to help out the Forest Service (yes the Angeles is grossly underfunded), not change its status completely to the more bureaucratic NPS. The ultimate problem: Too much power in the executive branch! What would the framers of the constitution think of this? With the swipe of a pen the president signs off land, using his over-used 'executive power' FYI, the President was in San Dimas (at the mountain's base) yesterday to make this move 'offical'...
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"Come and Let Us Climb the Lord's Mountain!" -Isaiah 2:5

www.hikinginsocal.blogspot.com

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#40597 - 10/11/14 03:43 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: SanGorgonioHiker]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
It would be best if the forest service, park service and BLM were all under the Dept. of the Interior.

My guess is the areas that are going to be a mess are whose trailheads start in ps/fs and travel into the the others jurisdiction...see the San Antonio Canyon area.

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#40599 - 10/11/14 05:47 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7583
Loc: Fresno, CA
Contrast the establishment of the SGMNM with Doug's post on wpsmb: Alabama Hills, 2000-2014 the long road

I'm not completely sure where their process stands, but I sure like how it included discussions with every local group, and stressed that "all recreational activities currently allowed will persist."

We should give Doug lots of support promoting the Alabama Hills as a National Scenic Area.

...of course, if there is no funding to help take care of the area, it could be a toothless designation.

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#40600 - 10/11/14 06:45 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: wbtravis]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1137
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
It would be best if the forest service, park service and BLM were all under the Dept. of the Interior.

I was thinking the same thing, WB. The Dept of Agriculture should focus on other things besides harvesting our national forests. Forests, they're not just for breakfast anymore.

Now its more about sustainable use of resources, clearing choked forests for controlled burning, managing heavy recreation use, policing illegal grow operations, etc. Seems like a good fit to align all three land management departments under one agency. Interior is the logical choice.

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#40601 - 10/11/14 06:46 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Steve C]
Daves Not Here Offline


Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 20
Loc: Lost Angeles
Lets face it people. The only reason the San Gabriels were listed as a 'national monument' is because judy chu rep. of an impoverished and little know community in la county could not get congress to listen to her, so she went crying to the white house. The carter administration ripped the funding out from under the usgs and it was never replaced. Fast forward to the bush administration and the double taxation program know as 'the adventure pass' Fortunately this was finally ruled illegal for obvious reasons. All 300 + of these illegally placed notices I received were either torn up in front of rangers and handed back, placed on THEIR vehilce, dumped in the trash, or just plain ignored as there was never any means of enforcement put in place, although a few were put to good use starting my camp fire or bbq at my campsite. The San Gabriels do not garner anything close to being a national monument. America has not had a president in nearly 8 years, or a leader for even longer. I hope that someday this changes. Using 'executive power' for such a meaningless and frivolous gesture does nothing more than place more undo financial burden on a state that used to be a global financial powerhouse. Lets face it, before this idiot was allowed to occupy our white house, California was the 4th largest economic power on the planet. It's a joke that chu first claimed that this status would bring more trails and development to the San Gabriels, but then about faced Friday to say that it will protect this mountain range from any further development. It's time that Americans wake and exercise their brain before wasting a vote on such ignorant and self serving politicians that are doing nothing but destroying and giving away this country one bad decision after another.


Edited by Daves Not Here (10/11/14 06:49 PM)

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#40602 - 10/11/14 06:55 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: SanGorgonioHiker]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1137
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: SanGorgonioHiker
The ultimate problem: Too much power in the executive branch! What would the framers of the constitution think of this? With the swipe of a pen the president signs off land, using his over-used 'executive power'

Talk radio and a particular news channel loves to misrepresent this, but luckily, history records the actual facts to set the record straight.

EOs have been going on since George Washington, so they are nothing surprising to the framers of constitution. The current President is nowhere near the top of the list in terms of total EOs or EOs per year.

Exective Orders - Washington to Obama

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#40603 - 10/11/14 09:49 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Daves Not Here]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
" It's time that Americans wake and exercise their brain before wasting a vote on such ignorant and self serving politicians that are doing nothing but destroying and giving away this country one bad decision after another."

I'm not sure I understand how that works. How does one destroy or give away parts of this country, by lawfully creating areas which are protected against exploitation?

The creation of National Monuments was authorized by the 1908 Antiquities act, which was passed by Congress, and signed by the President.

"In response to Roosevelt's declaration of the Grand Canyon monument, a putative mining claimant sued in federal court, claiming that Roosevelt had overstepped the Antiquities Act authority by protecting an entire canyon. In 1920, the United States Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the Grand Canyon was indeed "an object of historic or scientific interest" and could be protected by proclamation, setting a precedent for the use of the Antiquities Act to preserve large areas.[8] Federal courts have since rejected every challenge to the President's use of Antiquities Act preservation authority."

I think the Founders would think that the Constitution had been faithfully followed in this process. It must be galling to understand that.

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#40604 - 10/11/14 09:56 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: Ken]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
But I love this best:

George W. Bush proclaimed two very different monuments in 2006, the hundredth anniversary of the Antiquities Act. African Burial Ground National Monument is a tiny archeological site in New York City.

Northwestern Hawaiian Islands National Monument protects roughly 140,000 square miles (360,000 km2) of the Pacific Ocean,

larger than all of America's national parks combined

I don't remember a peep out of any conservative when this land-grabbing President took this action. Wonder why?


Edited by Steve C (10/13/14 09:36 AM)
Edit Reason: phrase removed

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#40605 - 10/11/14 11:51 PM Re: San Gabriel Mountains National Monument? [Re: SierraNevada]
SanGorgonioHiker Offline


Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 66
Loc: Southern CA
Cool list, thanks for sharing. George Washington's EO's and President Obama's EO's are quite different. Pres. Washington usually used his EO's only on issues that congress would generally agree on. Not so typically in the other case.

Anyhow, ambiguity of Article II of the Constitution, in which the granting of executive orders of the President is found, is quite broad...maybe one day there'll be a set definition of the uses of executive orders. I think that would make an interesting research topic.


Edited by SanGorgonioHiker (10/11/14 11:53 PM)
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"Come and Let Us Climb the Lord's Mountain!" -Isaiah 2:5

www.hikinginsocal.blogspot.com

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