Mt Whitney Webcam
Mt Williamson Webcam
Feature Topics
Who's Online
1 registered (crito), 17 Guests and 57 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
3217 Members
13 Forums
5294 Topics
49338 Posts

Max Online: 382 @ 11/07/12 05:45 AM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#48739 - 11/14/16 11:27 AM C2C2C 11/13
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 358
Loc: Wildomar
With Whitney and Rim to Rim to Rim in the Grand Canyon completed this year, we decided to check another great one off the bucket list - Cactus to Clouds to Cactus. It's normally done as C2C with a return down via the tram/car shuttle, but we're a glutton for pain. There was a lot of last minute date shuffling to get three schedules lined up, but finally we settled on 11/13. That worked out perfectly as we had the super moon and t shirt weather the entire day.

We started at 0315 after parking across the street in the parking garage. DO NOT park at the museum or you might be ticketed and towed.

Route finding was much easier than we had read about. My brother and I had gone most of the way to the picnic tables the day before, we had several maps and gps tracks of the route. We never needed any help, because the white dots were there to guide us.

The Skyline portion ranges from steep to brutally steep. The trail is rough and not a super highway like Whitney or the Grand Canyon.

We saw two other teams getting ready behind us and a few headlamps up ahead. Just after we stashed our lamps we heard a young lady screaming for help. One of our party located her and it was a simple matter of her getting off trail. Once he got her on course she took off strong ahead of us and rejoined her own group. We traded places with them a few times.

No one that we talked to all day planned on hiking back down. Everyone was focused on the tram.

We filled up our water supplies at the ranger station, used the trash can, flush toilets and pulled our permit. I carried 4.6 liters up and used 3, the others brought 5 and 6 respectively. I filled back up to 3 for the trip to the summit and back. I have done this section dozens of times over the years and we made good time. I did feel a little sick, but a couple Tums helped out. We hit the top at 1245 and were headed down by 1300.

The trip back to the ranger station was uneventful and quick. A long break was taken to change socks, eat and top off water. I decided to carry a full 4.6 back down in case someone had a problem and we were stuck overnight. I ended up drinking 3 on the Skyline downhill, especially closer to Palm Springs were it was warmer.

With AT&T I had coverage about 90% of the time on Skyline. It was great getting text updates of the football game. Even better because I'm a Cowboys fan. Verizon seemed to do okay as well.

Skyline downhill is rough. Impossible to do quickly when you are focused on being safe. Thankfully we made it through the worst before we needed headlamps. Honestly, unless you are really challenging yourself, I suggest just taking the tram. It was completely unenjoyable. We finished up at 2030 and made fast time to IHOP.

I doubt I'll do this one again. I can't imagine how hard it would be if you hit the weather wrong.....................................DUG

Top
#48741 - 11/14/16 06:58 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
Snacking Bear Offline


Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 446
Loc: Saugus, CA
Good! That is some knee-pounding!
_________________________
@jjoshuagregory (Twitter & Instagram) for landscape and mountain photo spamming...

Top
#48743 - 11/14/16 08:30 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7192
Loc: Fresno, CA
Mercy!!! Great job.

Top
#48754 - 11/16/16 05:22 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
britonwhit(ney) Offline


Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 59
Loc: UK
Impressive! I did C2C (including peak) but descended by tram in October.

Beautiful hike, really enjoyed it. The range of climatic conditions and experiences in a single day hike is unrivalled in my experience. I think I'll try and repeat in April next year.

Top
#48760 - 11/16/16 08:22 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
Snacking Bear Offline


Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 446
Loc: Saugus, CA
You could probably do I2B2I... Iron to Baldy to Iron.

24 miles, 20k g/l, and cross country to boot
_________________________
@jjoshuagregory (Twitter & Instagram) for landscape and mountain photo spamming...

Top
#48763 - 11/16/16 10:26 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: Snacking Bear]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 358
Loc: Wildomar
We are looking at Telescope from Shorty's Well. And back.

Top
#48767 - 11/16/16 01:35 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7192
Loc: Fresno, CA
Telescope... You guys would be ones to accomplish that!

Top
#48777 - 11/16/16 08:42 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: DUG]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 452
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: DUG
Just after we stashed our lamps we heard a young lady screaming for help. One of our party located her and it was a simple matter of her getting off trail. Once he got her on course she took off strong ahead of us and rejoined her own group.


I can never understand why people who hike together leave others in their party.

Originally Posted By: DUG
Skyline downhill is rough. Impossible to do quickly when you are focused on being safe. Thankfully we made it through the worst before we needed headlamps. Honestly, unless you are really challenging yourself, I suggest just taking the tram. It was completely unenjoyable.


I personally agree with the unenjoyable part, but a number of people regularly go down during the cooler parts of the year. You'd be surprised by how many people can do the whole C2C2C in the single digit range.

Originally Posted By: Snacking Bear
You could probably do I2B2I... Iron to Baldy to Iron.

24 miles, 20k g/l, and cross country to boot


How'd you get this stat Joe? The majority of the 10k ft of gain on Iron to Baldy is from Iron (~7k). How is it doubled traversing back from Baldy?

Top
#48783 - 11/16/16 10:23 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
Snacking Bear Offline


Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 446
Loc: Saugus, CA
g/l stands for gain and loss. If you do 5,000' of ascent and return you are covering 10k of gain and loss. It is a way to meter how taxing a route is. Downhill taxes you too. Not the same way, but it does. If you do i2b2i you actually do 12,100 of gain, and 12,100 loss (as you repeat every downhill/uphill returning, in reverse).

20k was a ballpark figure of g/l
_________________________
@jjoshuagregory (Twitter & Instagram) for landscape and mountain photo spamming...

Top
#48803 - 11/19/16 05:51 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: Snacking Bear]
bruce Offline


Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 74
Loc: Novato, CA
Downhill was definitely the hardest part of the hike (the last 5k anyway), but for me it wasn't that bad. That's part of the challenge just like the uphill is. The trail was surprisingly easy to follow going down even though it was dark (although the full moon helped).

Unlike other hikes where there is a crowded freeway for a trail, it's definitely not a hike where you let your group separate and hike their own pace and meet at the next break stop (although we did do that some coming down from the summit to the ranger station, but it's impossible to get lost in that area).


Edited by bruce (11/19/16 05:53 AM)

Top
#48805 - 11/19/16 07:18 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: Snacking Bear]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 452
Loc: San Diego
I understand your g/l stood for gain and loss. I've just never seen it used that way. If I talk about the Whitney Trail I'm going to say 6,000 ft of gain and loss, not 12,000.

Top
#48992 - 12/15/16 10:25 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
fusial Offline


Registered: 05/18/15
Posts: 23
Loc: Los Angeles Area
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
I personally agree with the unenjoyable part, but a number of people regularly go down during the cooler parts of the year. You'd be surprised by how many people can do the whole C2C2C in the single digit range.

Are there any tricks to training to get this fast? Possibly intervals of fast hiking interspersed with normal speed, similar to running with tempo runs?

Top
#48994 - 12/16/16 10:56 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: fusial]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 452
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: fusial
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
I personally agree with the unenjoyable part, but a number of people regularly go down during the cooler parts of the year. You'd be surprised by how many people can do the whole C2C2C in the single digit range.

Are there any tricks to training to get this fast? Possibly intervals of fast hiking interspersed with normal speed, similar to running with tempo runs?


My personal experience is tons of time at an aerobic nose breathing pace, with minimal high intensity runs and some weights like one legged squats with a pack on. I highly recommend this book:

http://www.patagonia.com/product/training-for-the-new-alpinism/BK695.html

This is not a book about clothing, knots, or maps like Freedom of the Hills nor is it a book about rock or ice climbing techniques. It is about developing your fitness and applies whether you're a trail runner, mountaineer, or alpine climber.

No tricks, just time and effort but it works. I have friends who swear by high intensity interval training. I'm not here to say this is the only way or argue with anyone about what is best, but this type of training is what works for ME.

I started later in the game than most. Early 2010 I couldn't walk up a local 900 ft mountain without stopping for breath. I'm in my late 30s and despite several serious accidents (two of them involving me in a bike and inattentive drivers, and a broken ankle while climbing in Yosemite), I comfortably did the Whitney Trail in about 7 hours this past summer with zero struggle and zero soreness the next day. A friend and I did Skyline twice in one day over a month ago, 80% of it was at a nose breathing pace and we had a conversation the ENTIRE way, both times. Pacing ourselves, we still did both trips combined in about 9 hours flat. That's not even remotely close to the crazy records some of these guys and gals have posted over the years, but my goal is to simply be in shape to enjoy my hikes and climbs. I see too many miserable people absolutely suffering on the trails. Where's the fun in that? What I'm saying is this is more than attainable for your recreational, weekend warriors. Just takes persistence and discipline. I'm not an athlete and I have no natural talents. I actually had asthma as a kid and high blood pressure from eating too much junk food.

I'm an average person by just about every measure with a full time job. My diet is relatively healthy these day but I also eat pizza and carne asada burritos all the time. I don't hate my workouts, and I'm not collapsing at the end of them. I'm smiling and still feel good. Don't overtrain. That is the key for me.


Edited by 2600fromatari (12/16/16 11:48 AM)

Top
#48995 - 12/16/16 11:21 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7192
Loc: Fresno, CA
2600, thanks for that. I have several questions:

Is your 7-hour Whitney time main trail or MR, and is that one-way or round trip?

Can you describe the "aerobic nose breathing"?

Can you summarize the training described in the "New Alpinism" book? I'm very curious.

Top
#48996 - 12/16/16 11:47 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: Steve C]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 452
Loc: San Diego
Steve,
1) Main trail, roundtrip, "car-to-car".
2) Basically, I never go at a pace that I couldn't carry while breathing through my nose. With few exceptions when the terrain gets too steep or I want to move through an area quickly, I won't breathe through my mouth. This allows me to keep myself and my pace in check. Since I'm not straining, I'm burning mostly fat and don't need much. I think I used 2 liters going up, and filtered a liter at a small waterfall below Consultation Lake while I ate a McDonald's McMuffin on the way down. Other than that, I just had 2 gels and a few gummy bears.
3) New Alpinism talks in great and technical terms about what I described above, all in very to understand terms though. It's about how to build a huge aerobic base to support more specific training depending on what you're looking to do. Summary is to do most of your training in the aerobic zones and spend the other times developing strength. Simple techniques and exercises to develop endurance. One of the authors, Scott Johnston is an Olympic level coach and has climbed K2. Steve House climbed a new line on Nanga Parbat, alpine style, in 8 days. Check it out, it's well worth the price in my opinion.

Here's the basic premise. It's near the front of the book from another well known climber. Again, not looking to argue with anyone about what works or doesn't. This worked/works for me.

http://www.marktwight.com/blogs/discourse/85824260-no-free-lunch


Edited by 2600fromatari (12/16/16 11:53 AM)

Top
#48997 - 12/16/16 01:22 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
psykokid Online


Registered: 07/28/15
Posts: 48
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I agree about the TFTNA book, lots of good info in there on building up endurance. Hiking with a heart rate monitor at first for me was key to keeping an eye things and optimize your time on trail for training.

I was pretty much in the same boat as 2600 in the middle of 2015. Late 30's and starting to do more hiking with my son as he had recently bridged to boy scouts. I thought I was in pretty good shape until I hiked up to White Mountain Peak on an open gate day with a friend. I had old fogies and little girls passing me by. It was an eye opener. At that point I started hiking in the foothills of the San Gabriels a couple of days a week and taking advantage of the gym at work. Since then I've done a lot more trips, dropped 40 lbs, and can do high elevation gain hikes and not feel wasted the next day. Longest single day so far was a loop in the San Gorgonio Wilderness for 24 miles and 7500' of elevation gain/loss.

Top
#48998 - 12/16/16 02:19 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 310
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
Steve House climbed a new line on Nanga Parbat, alpine style, in 8 days.

He was also my guide on Denali in 1995. An amazing guy!

Top
#49001 - 12/16/16 07:20 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
fusial Offline


Registered: 05/18/15
Posts: 23
Loc: Los Angeles Area
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
Originally Posted By: fusial
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
I personally agree with the unenjoyable part, but a number of people regularly go down during the cooler parts of the year. You'd be surprised by how many people can do the whole C2C2C in the single digit range.

Are there any tricks to training to get this fast? Possibly intervals of fast hiking interspersed with normal speed, similar to running with tempo runs?


My personal experience is tons of time at an aerobic nose breathing pace, with minimal high intensity runs and some weights like one legged squats with a pack on. I highly recommend this book:

http://www.patagonia.com/product/training-for-the-new-alpinism/BK695.html


I've actually been using TFTNA for the past 2 years, though I had a lapse in training while I hiked the PCT. Haven't followed it super religiously, but I did start paying attention to my heart rate, trying to keep it in zone 1/2 borderline, and also doing the core and strength workouts mentioned. During this time, I hiked 4 out of 5 weekends (usually in the San Gabriels), and then trained 7-8 solid hours during the week after work. My Whitney, main trail, car-to-car time was 11.4 hours after about a year of training, age 29, light breathing 90% of the time. My Skyline time improved by 15% in the same period. Does this seem like reasonable progress?

Also, how much high intensity running? I was looking to start training for a 10k or even a marathon, if that would benefit my mountain fitness. It did seem like being able to do a 5k at a mid zone 2 heart rate helped my hiking performance a fair amount.


Edited by fusial (12/16/16 07:34 PM)

Top
#49017 - 12/20/16 08:13 PM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: fusial]
2600fromatari Offline


Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 452
Loc: San Diego
I'm not qualified to judge as I have absolutely zero background in physiology or anything like that, but if I could improve my time on Skyline by 15% next year I would be jumping for joy. I think that as you get more fit, the gains will be harder and harder to come by.

I personally only do about one high intensity run every other week. I can't think of any friend that has done a traditional marathon but many of them do trail runs/ultra marathons. I think that would benefit your mountain fitness more than running on flat terrain. Again, just my amateur opinion. Good luck!

Top
#49444 - 03/24/17 10:39 AM Re: C2C2C 11/13 [Re: 2600fromatari]
bruce Offline


Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 74
Loc: Novato, CA
Originally Posted By: 2600fromatari
Steve,
1) Main trail, roundtrip, "car-to-car".
2) Basically, I never go at a pace that I couldn't carry while breathing through my nose. With few exceptions when the terrain gets too steep or I want to move through an area quickly, I won't breathe through my mouth.


I don't see how it's possible to do the Whitney main trail in 7 hours RT while only breathing through your nose (with few exceptions). That's just over 3 miles an hour on average. I'm not buying it.

Anyway thank you for your book recommendation. I did buy it and it contains a lot of useful info and I mostly train in nose-breathing pace (zone 1) now.


Edited by bruce (03/24/17 10:41 AM)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >