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#48899 - 12/07/16 06:00 AM Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16
RichardK Online


Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 90
Loc: East Coast Florida
EDIT: This thread "tail" was chopped off of the end of the "Fallen Hiker..." thread here.
...Steve

Original post:


Originally Posted By: Paul
the area in question seems to be a problem for hikers descending at night, after a long day of hiking.

These hikers are usually in a zombie state from exhaustion.


Whatever happened to setting realistic turn around times? Summit fever, not trail conditions, is the culprit here.

If you start at midnight and still can't return to the trailhead by sunset, then you don't belong on the mountain. Undertrained eager beavers will invent ways to die in the backcountry.



Edited by Steve C (12/13/16 04:19 PM)

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#48900 - 12/07/16 10:21 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: RichardK]
BruinDave Offline


Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bruintown, California
Folks:

How about some sensitivity, kindness, empathy, and restraint from judgment/name-calling here? The exact details of the cause and circumstances of this incredibly unfortunate and tragic occurrence are still unknown and may never be known. Please keep in mind that the Powell family have read and do continue to read (and have provided updated closure to) this thread.

Steve, maybe a lock on this thread and a new general discussion regarding "safety improvements on the trail" thread is appropriate?

BruinDave

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#48901 - 12/07/16 10:59 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: RichardK]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 349
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: RichardK
Whatever happened to setting realistic turn around times? Summit fever, not trail conditions, is the culprit here. If you start at midnight and still can't return to the trailhead by sunset, then you don't belong on the mountain.


It is experience and good judgement, not arbitrary turnaround times and bans on hiking after sunset that keep us safe. I have never set a turnaround time before starting up. I suffer from chronic summit fever, so Iíve only turned around once in the last 13Ĺ years.

I constantly ask myself how much longer it will take to reach the summit, how long it will take to get back to the car or camp, and what shape I will be in when I get there. I carry a headlamp. If I expect to need one, I carry two. I routinely hike after sunset, sometimes long after sunset. Four years ago (minus three days), happytrails and I spent some time wandering around in the dark on the way down from the Whitney summit. We eventually found the trail and hiked out. No big deal. Please donít tell me I donít belong on the mountain.


Edited by bobpickering (12/07/16 11:16 AM)

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#48911 - 12/08/16 07:06 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: RichardK]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1130
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: RichardK
Whatever happened to setting realistic turn around times? Summit fever, not trail conditions, is the culprit here.

If you start at midnight and still can't return to the trailhead by sunset, then you don't belong on the mountain. Undertrained eager beavers will invent ways to die in the backcountry.


Not only is this an incredibly insensitive post, it doesn't even make sense. If you start at midnight (as thousand do each year), you're already hiking in the dark for five or six hours. Imagine, if you can, that your family were grieving and read a post like this.

And for the last time, the SAR team recognized this area of the trail needed improvement, and stated doing it on their own. Inyo has recognized this area of the trail needs improvement and intends to do more. If you think adding rocks to a trail where deaths have occurred is a violation the Wilderness Act, then sue. Good luck.

Peace out.

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#48913 - 12/08/16 09:02 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: Bob West]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Bob,

In a word yes. I fight a losing battle in SoCal with the 20-30 somethings about Wilderness trails. We will lose some major ones with a major storm cell in the right place.

Most today do not have a clue what Wilderness is and could not care less they want themselves some summit and they don't care what damage they do. Go to Cucamonga Peak to see what the confluence of meetup, Korean ex-pat community and the Six-Pack of Peaks Challenge have done, mostly the later.

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#48914 - 12/08/16 09:11 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: BruinDave]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Originally Posted By: BruinDave
Folks:

How about some sensitivity, kindness, empathy, and restraint from judgment/name-calling here?
BruinDave


In other words, let's be politically correct. Please point out any name calling because I have not seen it. Pointing out mistakes is not name calling.

Everyone wants something done here. Some want something done right now, others want something done under the auspices of the forest service by people who know something about trail building within the confines of the Wilderness Act.

Finally, having had a half a dozen people slide by me and being involved in two hiker assists this summer. I do not want to see people hurt ever again. I believe the only way we to this is with sunshine.

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#48915 - 12/08/16 11:17 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: wbtravis]
BruinDave Offline


Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bruintown, California
"Politically correct" are your words, not mine.

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#48916 - 12/08/16 12:32 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: wbtravis]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 349
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Please point out any name calling because I have not seen it.

I think this qualifies as name-calling:

Originally Posted By: RichardK
Undertrained eager beavers will invent ways to die in the backcountry.

Itís pretty insensitive, too, considering that somebody just died here.

We all started out as newbies, and we all made plenty of stupid mistakes. Most of us got away with those mistakes and learned from them. We should remember this before we criticize someone else for knowing less than we know. And when people criticize common mountaineering practices like hiking after sunset, they appear pretty silly to those of us who have been doing it for decades.

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#48918 - 12/08/16 05:20 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: BruinDave]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1553
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
Originally Posted By: BruinDave
"Politically correct" are your words, not mine.


A phrase whose usage should only be attempted by those who have the first clue to what each word means before actually combining them.
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
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#48959 - 12/13/16 01:31 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: saltydog]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Originally Posted By: saltydog
Originally Posted By: BruinDave
"Politically correct" are your words, not mine.


A phrase whose usage should only be attempted by those who have the first clue to what each word means before actually combining them.


I know exactly what they mean when put together.

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#48960 - 12/13/16 01:57 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: bobpickering]
wbtravis Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Corner of Jack Benny and Roche...
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Please point out any name calling because I have not seen it.

I think this qualifies as name-calling:

Originally Posted By: RichardK
Undertrained eager beavers will invent ways to die in the backcountry.

Itís pretty insensitive, too, considering that somebody just died here.

We all started out as newbies, and we all made plenty of stupid mistakes. Most of us got away with those mistakes and learned from them. We should remember this before we criticize someone else for knowing less than we know. And when people criticize common mountaineering practices like hiking after sunset, they appear pretty silly to those of us who have been doing it for decades.


No context. Insensitive in this context. It does not qualify as ad hominem.

Common practices have exceptions. This area has been known for a long time as an area you should be through before dark. I learned that first time through the area. Ever since, I planned to be below Lone Pine Lake before sunset. I have found people are very slow on the up take figure out what is dangerous. We having the same accidents in the same places only the names chance. People continue to walk down Goode and San Antonio Canyon at Mt. Baldy, even after they put 8 directional signs up this past summer. Eventually, SAR or aviation gets them out of their troubles.

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#48962 - 12/13/16 04:18 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: wbtravis]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7524
Loc: Fresno, CA
This thread "tail" was chopped off of the end of the "Fallen Hiker..." thread here.
This section is only visible to moderators. I found WBTravis' continual blathering pretty obnoxious.

I also locked the original thread. We might unlock it in the future if we make any plans to make a work project with Inyo N.F.

...Steve

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#48964 - 12/13/16 08:27 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: Steve C]
RenoFrank Online


Registered: 08/06/11
Posts: 426
Loc: Reno, NV
That was a positive note to end the thread, IMO representative of the fraternity and good will this site inspires.

If there is an organized effort to improve that section I will try to participate although chances are I won't be there. I'd like the opportunity to meet some of you guys,

I've noticed some friction between wbtravis and SierraNevada before. I first noticed it on my thread about being ticketed in a CA State Park for unsecured passenger my car. And they're not the only ones to get their feathers ruffled. These mountain men are strong-willed individuals.

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#48965 - 12/13/16 09:51 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: RenoFrank]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7524
Loc: Fresno, CA
SierraNevada is a moderator here.
I met a hiker on the HST who knew wbtravis and would not go on any hikes that he was participating in due to his grouchy and pretentious attitude. He's butted heads with others here more than once. I try to keep out of any conflicts with him.

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#48974 - 12/14/16 11:24 AM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: Steve C]
Snacking Bear Offline


Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 476
Loc: Saugus, CA
Me and '63ChevyII have had a number of in-person discussions regarding wbtravis' attitude. He's not wrong about some stuff, but he is tactless. He's definitely earned the nickname "Buzzkill Bill" in the SoCal Hiking Meetup circuit.

Steve, I did think about locking the thread, but I wasn't sure if I should. I'm not sure about your thread policies unless someone is being particularly belligerent, offensive, or coarse.

Would run-away threads like this qualify as axeable materials in the future?
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@jjoshuagregory (Twitter & Instagram) for landscape and mountain photo spamming...

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#48975 - 12/14/16 12:24 PM Re: Fallen Hiker on Monday 10-17-16 [Re: Snacking Bear]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7524
Loc: Fresno, CA
Rather than axe the thread, I'd like to lock it. We should discuss it here before doing too much. If you were thinking about locking it earlier, just post in this forum, and we can decide together what to do.

The forum software allows moving entire (or parts of) a thread to a different forum. That is what I did with the above posts. For all but us here, it appears to have been deleted, but it's available for discussion here this way.

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