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#50627 - 07/05/17 11:19 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: pd tahoe]
koredirector Offline


Registered: 06/28/17
Posts: 3
Loc: ca
thank you instagram and facebook for bringing more idiots onto the trail

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#50655 - 07/06/17 06:20 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: BrianBlair]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 311
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: BrianBlair
The solution is rather simple to me:

Stamp every bag with a permit number.

The Rangers patrolling the trail see bags left behind. They jot down the permit number.

Once back at the ranger station they pull up the permit and inform the permit holder that they will not be issued another permit for a yead.....or 5 years.....or life as far as I'm concerned.

Simple and would fix the problem.

BB


I don’t like the government-issued WAG bags, so I make my own out of two Ziploc bags. (I’ve been doing this for 20+ years.) If I leave it by the trail, there will be no permit number on it. If I just crap under a rock, there will be no permit number on it.

As I keep saying, these schemes are either totally unworkable or trivial to defeat. This is kinda fun. You guys keep proposing “simple” solutions that will “fix the problem”, and I’ll keep shooting them down. You can inconvenience the people who follow the rules, but there are a thousand ways to get around carrying your poop out if you don’t want to be responsible.

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#50658 - 07/06/17 07:51 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: bobpickering]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 367
Loc: Wildomar

I don’t like the government-issued WAG bags, so I make my own out of two Ziploc bags. (I’ve been doing this for 20+ years.) If I leave it by the trail, there will be no permit number on it. If I just crap under a rock, there will be no permit number on it.

As I keep saying, these schemes are either totally unworkable or trivial to defeat. This is kinda fun. You guys keep proposing “simple” solutions that will “fix the problem”, and I’ll keep shooting them down. You can inconvenience the people who follow the rules, but there are a thousand ways to get around carrying your poop out if you don’t want to be responsible. [/quote]

Ditto with the grand idea of bringing the solar toilets back. For every reason you drop as to why you think they should return, there are dozens of why the didn't work and won't work. It doesn't really matter if YOU keep shooting anyone's ideas down. We are just a group of like-minded folks tossing around ideas that will never come to fruition and you're not a policymaker. So I don't think anyone needs your blessing to discuss any idea. Thanks for playing, have a great Navy day............................................DUG

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#50673 - 07/07/17 10:37 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: DUG]
JMH Offline


Registered: 06/09/16
Posts: 19
Loc: Aurora, Illinois
You are given a bag with a reader device and a $$$ hold is placed on your credit card. There are only two scenarios:

1.) You take responsibility to get your bag scanned into the collection device and you get your $$$ hold back on your credit card.

2.) Your irresponsible with your bag and you you don't get your bag into the collection device and you don't get your $$$ hold back on your credit card.

What if my bag is taken away by a tornado? What if a marmot eats my bag? What if north korea attacks the us and sets up central command on mt whitney? Well then, you don't get your deposit back.

The system is not designed to keep you or a bear from shitting in the woods. It is designed to penalize the awful people who leave their bags on the mountain. Whoever leaves their bags on the mountain deserves their penalty.

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#50674 - 07/07/17 11:12 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: JMH]
+ @ti2d Offline


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 804
Loc: Oh Cursed, USA
Originally Posted By: JMH
...What if my bag is taken away by a tornado? What if a marmot eats my bag? What if north korea attacks the us and sets up central command on mt whitney? Well then, you don't get your deposit back...


As for the tornado, you will be either either SOL or LOS or facing a lawsuit for improper disposal of fecal matter. Someone's house will be TP'd. HAZMAT up!

Marmots eat $h!+? That would be the perfect remedy since all of us ingest power bars and what not. Hey, this is good s_ _ t, man!

As for North Korea, the shan is going to hit the fit, or is it the fit is going to hit the shan. Either way, can they say MOAB!
_________________________
Have fun and enjoy the Gr8 Yd Opn.

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#50678 - 07/07/17 06:42 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: bobpickering]
BrianBlair Offline


Registered: 07/05/17
Posts: 4
Loc: Silverado, CA
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Originally Posted By: BrianBlair
The solution is rather simple to me:

Stamp every bag with a permit number.

The Rangers patrolling the trail see bags left behind. They jot down the permit number.

Once back at the ranger station they pull up the permit and inform the permit holder that they will not be issued another permit for a yead.....or 5 years.....or life as far as I'm concerned.

Simple and would fix the problem.

BB


I don’t like the government-issued WAG bags, so I make my own out of two Ziploc bags. (I’ve been doing this for 20+ years.) If I leave it by the trail, there will be no permit number on it. If I just crap under a rock, there will be no permit number on it.

As I keep saying, these schemes are either totally unworkable or trivial to defeat. This is kinda fun. You guys keep proposing “simple” solutions that will “fix the problem”, and I’ll keep shooting them down. You can inconvenience the people who follow the rules, but there are a thousand ways to get around carrying your poop out if you don’t want to be responsible.


Why are you so dead set on "shooting them down"? I don't really see how these solutions effect you much if you already have your systems figured out and aren't part of the problem. Why not be open to trying these ideas out?

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#50682 - 07/07/17 09:31 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: BrianBlair]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7225
Loc: Fresno, CA
Originally Posted By: BrianBlair
Why are you so dead set on "shooting them down"? I don't really see how these solutions effect you much if you already have your systems figured out and aren't part of the problem. Why not be open to trying these ideas out?

I think BP is playing devil's advocate.

A solution for the problem isn't up to us here, though. It's up to the USFS to try something. Current system seems to be getting worse. I just hope they don't cut back on the number of permits they issue -- that IS one option. Some here are pretty sore about the way the old system was literally burned down, without the proper process of exploring all the options.

I'd like to see a llama pack train used to service wag bag collection stations at Outpost and TC. It's an option that could be tried for one season ...or even one month.

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#50691 - 07/08/17 01:54 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: BrianBlair]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 311
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: BrianBlair
Why are you so dead set on "shooting them down"? I don't really see how these solutions effect you much if you already have your systems figured out and aren't part of the problem. Why not be open to trying these ideas out?

I persist in shooting down these “solutions” because they aren’t solutions at all. The very fact that I can easily shoot them down is proof that they aren’t solutions, isn’t it? Do you really believe that these “solutions” will magically work if I just shut up and stop poking holes in them?

The real problem is human excrement being left in heavily traveled wilderness where every rock already has five turds under it. A WAG bag with a turd in it may be an unpleasant sight/smell along the trail, but it’s better than not using the WAG bag at all. At least it might find its way to the dumpster if a ranger or someone else carries it down. The sixth turd under a rock or the turd buried in two inches of sand near the pond at Trail Camp will never be carried down.

A “solution” that uses a barcode, a microchip, your permit number, or some other scheme to identify your WAG bag only identified your WAG bag. A “solution” that imposes fines, denies you future permits, keeps your $100 deposit, or takes away your birthday based on what you do with your WAG bag only affects what you do with your WAG bag. You can still shit wherever you like, and bring the WAG bag down empty. These “solutions” don’t address that problem, and they probably make it worse. After all, if you’re out $100 for not bringing your WAG bag down, you’re going to want to take really good care of it.

Other than education and peer pressure, I don’t know how to get more people to carry out their poop. But I’m confident that a $100 deposit and an expensive WAG bag scanning machine at the trailhead isn’t the answer.

I mentioned the outhouses in a previous post. That would certainly reduce the poop left in the wilderness. However, there are problems with the outhouses, and I’m not taking a stand one way or the other.

In most places in the wilderness, traffic is light enough to allow digging a six-inch hole and burying it. This WAG bag business is only necessary in heavy traffic areas or where ground is too hard or frozen for digging holes.

BTW, many years ago, I read about spreading your poop as thin as possible on a flat rock and letting the sun decompose it. I tried it a couple of times in very remote places. In one case, I returned three months later and checked the results. There was clearly something on the rock, but it didn’t look or smell anything like poop. Please don’t try this at Trail Camp.

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#50692 - 07/08/17 02:14 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: bobpickering]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 367
Loc: Wildomar
Let's cut the number of entries from the Portal to ten a day. Day hike or overnight. If you want to see Whitney, you start from farther away or you're one of the super lucky ten. Onion Valley to Whitney is still a doable day hike for some.

Let's cut it back until all the current poop is broken down in 10-15 years. Or whatever. Meanwhile, we can educate people on the evil of poop and once the area is restored some, loosen the quotas up.

To make it fair, once you have gotten your magic permit for a portal entry, you can never get another one and have to use another trailhead.

If people can't mind their poop, we will have to restrict access to limit the shit.................................DUG

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#50696 - 07/08/17 05:33 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: DUG]
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 777
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
Dug, I agree. The Whitney region needs a long-term recovery period; 20 - 25 years might be even better. Let's give nature a long break to recover from human abuse.

Many people are not going to mind their poop, especially one-time visitors. Their attitude might be "Oh, I'm only here once...I won't have to look at it again." Out of sight, out of mind. It's similar to cigarette smokers who drop their butts on the ground; no consideration for other people.

Then, there will be groups that like to preach environmentalism (Sierra Club, Friends of the Inyo, etc.) who would scream and yell if denied "their right" to enter the wilderness whenever they like.


Edited by Bob West (07/08/17 05:33 PM)

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#50702 - 07/09/17 08:01 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: Bob West]
retarded Offline


Registered: 06/01/17
Posts: 19
Loc: SanFranfreako Bay Area
Are you all sure the bags are abandoned, or are people picking them up after you see them?
On my last trip we only saw them on the way up, but hikers had apparently claimed their poop for the trip down.

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#50704 - 07/09/17 09:06 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: retarded]
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 777
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
No, not all people are leaving their wag bags behind; no one has ever said that. Enough bags are left behind to create a mess for the people who do follow the rules.

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#50838 - 07/12/17 07:03 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: retarded]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: retarded
Are you all sure the bags are abandoned, or are people picking them up after you see them?
On my last trip we only saw them on the way up, but hikers had apparently claimed their poop for the trip down.

Point conceded, some of the plastic bags of human excrement on the trail are only "temporarily" abandoned. But there's no way to tell which ones will be picked up by the owner on the way down and which ones are permanently abandoned. Either way, other hikers like yourself have to witness and avoid the crap bags on this "wilderness" trail. A mess is a mess and none of it should be accepted as OK.

Sierra Moutain Guides Blog Post

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#50839 - 07/12/17 07:14 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: DUG]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: DUG
Ditto with the grand idea of bringing the solar toilets back. For every reason you drop as to why you think they should return, there are dozens of why the didn't work and won't work.

Toilets ARE a technically viable solution that are a proven solution on Long's Peak, Rocky Mtn NP since 1983. A properly designed and maintained toilet system COULD work just fine on Whitney.

There are many other issues with toilets, as with any solution for that matter, but the fact is toilets are technically viable on Whitney.

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#50848 - 07/12/17 12:10 PM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 200
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada

There are many other issues with toilets, as with any solution for that matter, but the fact is toilets are technically viable on Whitney.


There are many other issues with WAG bags, as with any solution for that matter, but the fact is WAG bags are technically viable on Whitney.

Which simply shows that the discussion of technical viability in the absence of a clear plan to address the particular associated social AND political AND economic viability is pointless, bags or toilets.

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#50861 - 07/12/17 06:13 PM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Glad you agree that toilets are indeed technically viable, Dale. I consider that progress, considering where this topic was in 2011. Arguing that single point was what drew me into this heated topic back then.

Yes, we all know there are many other challenges to overcome to see a change to the status quo. It's easy to pee in the punchbowl, but if you have a plan to propose, please lay it out for us.

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#50872 - 07/13/17 12:42 AM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 200
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Glad you agree that toilets are indeed technically viable, Dale. I consider that progress, considering where this topic was in 2011. Arguing that single point was what drew me into this heated topic back then.


What I posted in 2011 in response to the concerns of ranger George about InyoNF's ability to implement RMNP's solar toilets:
Originally Posted By: dbd
Rocky Mountain NP has a different knowledge and experience base than the Inyo NF. RMNP supports 73 backcountry campsites with privies. (Two of the four solar seats support Boulderfield camp site, the other two are along trails.) They also have 200 permanent and 272 seasonal employees and 1699 volunteers (102,240 hours). That's a different base of support. That doesn't make solar toilets impossible for Inyo, but it means that it will take a lot of careful creative thought to deal with the hurdles of definition, authorization, funding, acquisition, staffing, construction and operation. The process of dealing concretely with these hurdles seems negative compared to wishful thinking, but it is necessary to deal with them all to accomplish something. The process would also make it easier to identify and evaluate useful alternatives.

There was no 'technical viability' issue in November 2011. That hasn't changed. And the whole statement still stands. Did you think it would be more colorful to misrepresent what my position has been since 2011?

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Yes, we all know there are many other challenges to overcome to see a change to the status quo. It's easy to pee in the punchbowl, but if you have a plan to propose, please lay it out for us.

Well, the first sentence seems issue free. The next phrase is colorful, but there is no punchbowl here. And what to propose? I did describe on this site what I thought it would take to motivate and enable Inyo NF to build solar toilets. Did you think it would be more colorful to forget that, too? Not to worry. It was considered too expensive and politically improbable even then. And what plans did you detail here?

Dale B. Dalrymple

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#50876 - 07/13/17 06:44 AM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1098
Loc: NorCal
Dale, the supposed reason the toilets were removed is because Inyo and others claimed they were not technically viable. As an engineer, I took exception to that and fought that battle over dozens of posts, research on backcountry toilet systems, letters to Inyo management, obtained public records from Inyo, phone calls with the Forest Supervisor and District Engineer. Any yet Inyo's website still implies that:

"In the past, toilets were located along the Mt. Whintey Trail. Despite numerous renovations and retrofits, they never functioned properly and were overwhelmed with waste. Sometimes the toilets and related cesspools overflowed. The toilets were removed several years ago."

I'm glad you were not in that camp back in 2011 but a lot of people were, and there are still people who don't agree that toilets are technically viable - just read this very thread. The tide has changed on that one issue since 2011 for many people on this forum, but its not "pointless" to discuss the technical viability of the toilets.

Again, if you have a plan for moving forward that covers all the challenges and requirements you laid out, please focus on that one topic. You seem to have good knowledge of public process so please focus on solutions. If you just want to warn everyone how difficult this issue is, please don't, we all know that and its a buzz kill. Keep it constructive.





Edited by SierraNevada (07/13/17 07:33 AM)

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#50930 - 07/14/17 10:32 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: SierraNevada]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 367
Loc: Wildomar
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Originally Posted By: DUG
Ditto with the grand idea of bringing the solar toilets back. For every reason you drop as to why you think they should return, there are dozens of why the didn't work and won't work.

Toilets ARE a technically viable solution that are a proven solution on Long's Peak, Rocky Mtn NP since 1983. A properly designed and maintained toilet system COULD work just fine on Whitney.

There are many other issues with toilets, as with any solution for that matter, but the fact is toilets are technically viable on Whitney.


Technically speaking, if the toilets were replaced and I needed to crap when going up via the Mountaineers Route, how would I handle that?......................................DUG

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#50933 - 07/15/17 09:54 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: DUG]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 311
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: DUG
Technically speaking, if the toilets were replaced and I needed to crap when going up via the Mountaineers Route, how would I handle that?

As a general rule, when you are in the wilderness and need to crap, you dig a six-inch hole, crap in the hole, cover it up, and pack out your toilet paper. In some overused areas, such as Whitney and Shasta, you are required to use a WAG bag and carry everything out. If there is a toilet nearby, feel free to use it instead of the hole or the WAG bag.

I hope this answers your question about the Mountaineers’ Route.

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