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#50937 - 07/15/17 05:33 PM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: bobpickering]
DUG Offline

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 370
Loc: Wildomar
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
Originally Posted By: DUG
Technically speaking, if the toilets were replaced and I needed to crap when going up via the Mountaineers Route, how would I handle that?

As a general rule, when you are in the wilderness and need to crap, you dig a six-inch hole, crap in the hole, cover it up, and pack out your toilet paper. In some overused areas, such as Whitney and Shasta, you are required to use a WAG bag and carry everything out. If there is a toilet nearby, feel free to use it instead of the hole or the WAG bag.

I hope this answers your question about the Mountaineers’ Route.

Glad to see you've toned down the snarkiness to a manageable level. Since a hole is impossible to dig in many parts of the Mountaineers Route (and the main trail), WAG BAGs seem like they are not only here to stay, but are the best option. Now, if we could just find a way to get lazy shits to bring them back down the mountain. We seem to have come full circle once again on this debate. I hope you are able to find something new to shoot down for sport on online forums. Have a great Navy day!....................................DUG

#50955 - 07/17/17 07:20 AM Re: WAG bags left on trail [Re: DUG]
SierraNevada Offline

Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Wag bags are always an option, DUG. The problem is when its the ONLY option. Calling people names or threatening consequences will not change human nature. Some percentage will always find a way to get around carrying a bag of crap to the summit and back.

Its not that we've come full circle, the evidence of a failed system piles up, and the debate continues year after year.

#50992 - 07/18/17 02:52 AM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: SierraNevada]
dbd Offline

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 212
Loc: San Diego
I asked SierraNevada to recount the plans he had detailed here to resolve the solar toilet issue. His reply:
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
As an engineer, I took exception to that and fought that battle over dozens of posts, research on backcountry toilet systems, letters to Inyo management, obtained public records from Inyo, phone calls with the Forest Supervisor and District Engineer.

This is a recounting of the efforts made to confront the forest service, but it includes no suggestion on where a positive effort should be aimed. It's alwas been that way with him.

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Any yet Inyo's website still implies that:
"In the past, toilets were located along the Mt. Whintey Trail. Despite numerous renovations and retrofits, they never functioned properly and were overwhelmed with waste. Sometimes the toilets and related cesspools overflowed. The toilets were removed several years ago."

That's true. They did leak, That was because there was not adequate maintenance and that was because of budget and political problems. That's what ranger George and I said and what SierraNevada said in the discussion in 2011 that I had to quote above when my position was misrepresented.
Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I'm glad you were not in that camp back in 2011 but a lot of people were, and there are still people who don't agree that toilets are technically viable - just read this very thread. The tide has changed on that one issue since 2011 for many people on this forum, but its not "pointless" to discuss the technical viability of the toilets.

It's not only pointless but also disruptive to a discussion trying to deal with WAG bag solutions. And rather off from what really went on in 2011.

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
Again, if you have a plan for moving forward that covers all the challenges and requirements you laid out, please focus on that one topic. ... so please focus on solutions...
I'm glad SierraNevada has come around to this view. It's a great time for him to start his first shot at it and move past the 'historic struggle' with the Forest Service,

Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
If you just want to warn everyone how difficult this issue is, please don't, we all know that and its a buzz kill. Keep it constructive.

I hope SteveC and SierraNevada can continue to move in this direction.

Dale B. Dalrymple

#50993 - 07/18/17 07:19 AM Re: WAG bags: It's not about technical viability [Re: dbd]
SierraNevada Offline

Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1145
Loc: NorCal
Your personal attacks are inaccurate and inappropriate, Dale. For the third time, if you have a plan to address the challenges you like to bring up that we're all aware of, let's see your plan. I've had a plan all along and I've done my part to move it forward.

Back in 2011, I proposed a phased approach to the Forest Supervisor that he showed interest in - to replace the toilet at Outpost camp and continue handing out wag bags for the upper mountain. Perhaps also try a collection bin at Trail Camp. Use mules or llamas to remove waste weekly using sanitary technicians or a private company. Very importantly - free up the Rangers to do more important work. If the toilets do indeed work well and improve the situation, then consider replacing them at Trail Camp as well. Continue handing out wag bags, but only to those who want to use them and commit to carrying the way up and all the way out. The key to success is giving people other options.

The Forest Supervisor wanted to know more about the toilet system at Longs Peak (Rocky Mtn NP) including design details and costs. He didn't seem to be well informed about the issues with the current system on Whitney that we discuss here about bags left behind and the piles of human waste. Unfortunately, the Whitney District Ranger at the time Ms. Woods, who is gone now, took the approach that toilets were not technically viable. That was the end of that. So once again, the technical viability of toilets is still a key issue.

It's also noteworthy that Garry Oye has retired from the NPS as a national wilderness manager. Garry was the person responsible for starting the wag bags when he was District Ranger at Inyo, which is fine, but he also burned down the toilets, which greatly complicates other solutions. And he did it without completing the environmental review process that was underway with a 50 page environmental assessment & public comments received. That should anger any true environmentalist.

Steve and I plan to reach out to the Forest Supervisor again this fall with hopes of restarting a productive dialog. Although I'm passionate about getting the facts straight about the situation on Whitney, it doesn't really affect me. I'm pretty much done going up that trail, but I do exit over Trail Crest at times.

Edited by SierraNevada (07/18/17 08:02 AM)

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