Mt Whitney Webcam
Mt Williamson Webcam
Feature Topics
Who's Online
2 registered (futbol, 1 invisible), 12 Guests and 61 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
3179 Members
13 Forums
5218 Topics
48780 Posts

Max Online: 382 @ 11/07/12 05:45 AM
Topic Options
#51434 - 08/06/17 07:22 AM Wag bags
Joe Offline


Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Michigan
Spent two nights at Trail Camp, August 2 and after summiting, Aug.3.
I've never seen so many wag bags at Trail Camp as I did this week. Hidden under rocks, some in the open...it's ridiculous.
Does a ranger have to come up and clean up after these irresponsible people or do these bags just sit there for who knows how long?
I rarely write posts on this site, I love reading them but just felt compelled to put this out there.
I know it's nothing new but it just seems to be getting worse.
We did encounter a ranger on the way down and she checked to make sure that we had ours so maybe that's a start.

Top
#51435 - 08/06/17 07:41 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Joe]
Bob West Offline


Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Bishop, CA, USA
The wag bag problem seems to get worse. Most of the blame is probably on one-time visitors to Mt. Whitney; the folks who just have to "conquer" to highest peak in the lower 48 states and then go home to their clean toilets.

Now the Whitney Portal Store has E. Coli contamination, which ought to prove that S... indeed flows downhill.

To top it off, the USFS seems incapable of taking the necessary steps to clean up the Whitney trail. The "long term studies" take far to long and merely prove what everyone already knows.

Drastic action is required. Like what? Close the trail from the East side for a few years until proper toilets can be installed along the trail and the trail environment has time to recover. Don't wait for it to happen; too many strident voices of protest from commercial interests in Lone Pine and whining from various political action groups. "Freedom of the hills?" To do what: wallow in our own crap.

















Edited by Bob West (08/06/17 07:42 AM)

Top
#51441 - 08/06/17 02:20 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: Bob West]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7126
Loc: Fresno, CA
I've been a proponent of setting up Wag bag collection stations -- Outpost Camp first, then at Trail Camp. With Llama pack trains to haul it out. Similar to Rocky Mountain National Park's high-elevation toilet system. Maybe the weight of un-dehydrated waste would require too many trips, but who knows? We won't know until it is tried.

It would seem like a pilot test one summer -- or even one month -- would be worth trying.

Top
#51451 - 08/07/17 07:10 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Steve C]
Marty Offline


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 77
Loc: CT
Question: Couldn't the wag bags have a printed number that could be used to identify the person to whom they were issued? It won't completely solve the problem of human waste but may cause some folks to think twice.

Top
#51452 - 08/07/17 07:58 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Bob West]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1063
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By: Bob West

Now the Whitney Portal Store has E. Coli contamination, which ought to prove that S... indeed flows downhill.

Bob, where was the E Coli found? In the water quality samples from the creek? Where did you hear of this?

Edit: I just saw a thread on this topic below this one.


Edited by SierraNevada (08/07/17 07:59 AM)

Top
#51453 - 08/07/17 07:59 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Marty]
+ @ti2d Offline


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 778
Loc: Oh Cursed, USA
Soon, for those who don't filter their water, will probably need to start...

How sad...

So much for filtering my water through my teeth.
_________________________
Have fun and enjoy the Gr8 Yd Opn.

Top
#51459 - 08/07/17 10:06 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: + @ti2d]
Harvey Lankford Offline


Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 954
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
let's be scientific here

has anyone actually opened those abandoned wagbags to see if they are:
(1) unused, dumped, unintentional - unlikely so many.
(2) unused, dumped, intentional
(3) dumped and dumped?

I will be there in September coming from up the south and west, but I did not say I was volunteering to be the detective for #3.

Top
#51474 - 08/08/17 04:47 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Harvey Lankford]
Marcus Offline


Registered: 07/07/17
Posts: 41
Loc: California
At the moment, they seem to be using the poor rangers as WAG bag mules.

I ran into one on the way down. She said that she had carried down 10 the previous day.

Annoyingly, she then insisted on seeing my I've, and I had to empty my entire pack too find it and everything got dirty.

It was at the bottom of the pack as I was not planning on using it. I understand that abandoned used bags are a problem, but asking me to produce a bag is a ridiculous test.

If I wanted to avoid carrying a full wag bag, I could just take a dump anywhere and still carry the WAG bag. Which I guess is what people are doing, if the Ecoli contamination is any indication.

Top
#51476 - 08/08/17 08:22 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Marcus]
SierraNevada Offline


Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 1063
Loc: NorCal
Salty Dog will be going ballistic when he returns from his Alternate JMT route and reads about Rangers searching people for their wag bag. As described in great detail on this forum, there is no Forest Order requiring the use of a wag bag. Why not?

Because a FO requires completion of NEPA (National Environmental Protection Act) and that process was never completed. Imagine if a private company just aborted the NEPA process and did whatever it wanted - there would be outrage and lawsuits. But because this was done with "good intentions" to make people responsible for their human waste, the environmentalists have looked the other way while the toilets were burned down.

What you're seeing with wag bags left behind is an environmental impact due to "noncompliance" with the packout waste alternative. These impacts were clearly identified, anticipated, and evaluated in the Environmental Assessment. That is why the preferred alternative was to rebuild the toilets - it was the most effective protection of the environment with the least environmental impacts. But then the preferred alternative was suddenly switched to wag bags, right when the EA was sent out for public comments. That was very sneaky, and again, would normally cause outrage and perhaps lawsuits. Even so, public comments were overwhelmingly in support of rebuilding the toilets. Even Sequoia-Kings Canyon management wrote a comment letter raising a lot of questions.

After all those shenanigans with the environmental process, now they want to search hikers on the trail for wag bags? This is going from outrageous to legally offensive, in my humble opinion. Welcome back when you read this, SaltyDog, hope you had a great hike.

Top
#51480 - 08/08/17 10:36 AM Re: Wag bags [Re: Marcus]
bobpickering Online


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 301
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Originally Posted By: Marcus
If I wanted to avoid carrying a full wag bag, I could just take a dump anywhere and still carry the WAG bag.

And if I really resented being stopped and searched, I could carry TWO WAG bags: leave the full one by the trail, and carry the empty one to show to the ranger.

Top
#51551 - 08/11/17 08:53 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: Joe]
david_garza Offline


Registered: 03/28/17
Posts: 23
Loc: Glendale, California
Something I wasn't anticipating. In the back of Trail Camp, in the rock formations that provide good privacy for toilets, the ground has human scat, making it extremely unsanitary to set a wagbag down there then stow it in one's pack.

Top
#51671 - Today at 01:11 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: david_garza]
retarded Offline


Registered: 06/01/17
Posts: 13
Loc: SanFranfreako Bay Area
On 8/14, following the main trail (not exploring for "private areas") I counted only one wag bag left on the trail, and it appeared to be marked for retrieval upon descent (didn't see it on the way down).

I believe it may be timing, or maybe the M-F crowd is a bit more civilized?

Top
#51676 - Today at 05:08 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: SierraNevada]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1497
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
I am way past outrage on this. But I am still curious. Suppose one does get a citation for not carrying a wag-bag. Or not presenting one when asked. How does the ranger fill the ticket out? What provision are you charged with violating? What CFR section and what Forest Order? I have asked this any number of times and have never seen so much as an attempt at an answer.
BTW, I am not sure that the ranger conduct described above constitutes a search. Normally a search involves the LEO looking for evidence of a violation. This is more like demanding evidence of compliance.
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!

Top
#51677 - Today at 05:40 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: saltydog]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 350
Loc: Wildomar
Originally Posted By: saltydog
I am way past outrage on this. But I am still curious. Suppose one does get a citation for not carrying a wag-bag. Or not presenting one when asked. How does the ranger fill the ticket out? What provision are you charged with violating? What CFR section and what Forest Order? I have asked this any number of times and have never seen so much as an attempt at an answer.
BTW, I am not sure that the ranger conduct described above constitutes a search. Normally a search involves the LEO looking for evidence of a violation. This is more like demanding evidence of compliance.


How does the ranger even know who you are? I never carry ID, money or credit cards when hiking. You get me up over 12,000 feet, I might not even get my address correct............................................DUG

Top
#51678 - Today at 06:24 PM Re: Wag bags [Re: DUG]
saltydog Offline


Registered: 02/03/11
Posts: 1497
Loc: Valley Ford CA!!!!
Originally Posted By: DUG
Originally Posted By: saltydog
I am way past outrage on this. But I am still curious. Suppose one does get a citation for not carrying a wag-bag. Or not presenting one when asked. How does the ranger fill the ticket out? What provision are you charged with violating? What CFR section and what Forest Order? I have asked this any number of times and have never seen so much as an attempt at an answer.
BTW, I am not sure that the ranger conduct described above constitutes a search. Normally a search involves the LEO looking for evidence of a violation. This is more like demanding evidence of compliance.


How does the ranger even know who you are? I never carry ID, money or credit cards when hiking. You get me up over 12,000 feet, I might not even get my address correct............................................DUG


Your permit.
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!

Top