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#54743 - 03/01/19 03:48 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: 1962]
HiImGecko Offline


Registered: 03/01/19
Posts: 6
Loc: Glendale, AZ
Originally Posted By: 1962
The power was out in Bishop, and knocked out the phones...

Word is No Lottery Progress Report this week as they are working on solving the software quirks related to alternate leaders.





Alright, thanks for the info! Does that mean we'll get a grace period since the issue is on their end or will my alternates not be able to make their 72 hours?

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#54744 - 03/01/19 11:14 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: 1962]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
HilmGecko: East side power is flakey. The webcam computers report power outages multiple times in a month. It's no wonder the Bishop phones were out.

Call again Monday morning, 8 AM. 760-873-2483

Word is that since people are having trouble with the Alternate Leaders responses, they will open things up and give the alternates until lottery entry time closes -- March 15.

However, If they wait until the end, and can't register, you lose your alternates, because it will be past the entry deadline. So get those alternates set up correctly ASAP.

Originally Posted By: HiImGecko
Alright, thanks for the info! Does that mean we'll get a grace period since the issue is on their end or will my alternates not be able to make their 72 hours?

I think you'll get a grace period, but if the software doesn't get changed, and so rejects and removes your alternates, you will have to cancel your original entry, and create a new one.

It's a new system, so there are sure to be quirks. I hope by next year, they will allow changes to entries up until the entry period closes. (This year, you can't change your entry once it has been paid for.)

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#54751 - 03/04/19 06:02 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: futbol]
futbol Offline


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 65
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: futbol
With their new reservation system, I don't think they have full control over what it does or how it does it.

For example, I received this after releasing 3 of the 4 permits I had last year (I don't think I actually got the refund, but I'll check later):

Quote:
Hi Peter,

You're all set! Your refund for Reservation #6-xxxxxxxx at Mt. Whitney has been processed and is on its way.

This email serves as confirmation that youíll be receiving a refund for this reservation. Your refund details can be found below:

Reservation ID:
6-xxxxxxxx Original Paid:
$55.00 Total Refund:
$34.00

Payment Type Amount Refunded

Legacy payment $34.00


Credit / debit card payments will be refunded to the card associated with your reservation, or you will receive a refund check in the mail with the address provided if you paid by cash or check (please allow up to 8 weeks).

Be on the lookout for your refund, and thank you for choosing Recreation.gov.

Thank you,
Recreation.gov


Either way, I think it's going to be a mess to sort out.



Today I received a (unexpected) refund via US Treasury check for $34. This was for the released reservation permits. If this is not a mistake, then I think it is a change for the better -- incentivize people to hand back unused permits early.

I would have rather the USFS credit back on my card, but not complaining.

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#54752 - 03/04/19 08:44 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: futbol]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
Originally Posted By: futbol
Today I received a (unexpected) refund via US Treasury check for $34.

Wow, that's almost miraculous! When did you make and cancel the reservation? It sounds like it took a long time for the check to arrive.

What was the $55 for? I can't quite do the math.

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#54754 - 03/05/19 09:08 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
futbol Offline


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 65
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Steve C
Originally Posted By: futbol
Today I received a (unexpected) refund via US Treasury check for $34.

Wow, that's almost miraculous! When did you make and cancel the reservation? It sounds like it took a long time for the check to arrive.

What was the $55 for? I can't quite do the math.


The email I received was on October 10 and said please allow up to 8 weeks for refund.

The original reservation was for 3 hikers overnight on the Mt Whitney main trail.

Original receipt:
Quote:

Use Fee
All 3@ 15.00 $45.00
Reservation Fee $10.00
Total: 55.00


I released 2 of the reservations early. At most that should have been $30. The math does not make sense.

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#54759 - 03/06/19 12:47 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
MTtoCA Offline


Registered: 03/06/19
Posts: 4
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Question about the selection process. Does a larger max group size affect your chances of being selected? Meaning if your application is selected, will they see if any date of the 15 is available for your max group size, then max group size - 1, then max group size - n, etc. until they find a date? If so, that would mean having a smaller max group size would make it more likely your first date choice would be selected as you wouldn't need as many spots when they try for your first date choice?

I'm assuming here they check each of the 15 dates for your max group size first and then check each date for max group size - n, etc. Not check your first date choice for any possible group size in your range, then second date for any possible groups size, etc. If they did the latter, you would be more likely to get a 1 person group on your first date choice than a 7 person group on your second date choice even if it was available!

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#54763 - 03/07/19 10:13 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: MTtoCA]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
MTtoCA: I'm pretty sure your assumption is correct. So cutting down your max size would slightly raise the chances of your getting closer to your first choice.

But this kind of situation only occurs when the slots are nearly filled during the lottery award processing. What it mostly depends on is where in the process your application is run through. If it is early in the process, your first choice will get the slots. Past the mid-point, all but the least desirable slots are filled, and none of your choices will win, even with the minimum group size.

When your application is run is completely dependent on the random order selection process.

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#54764 - 03/07/19 10:42 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
MTtoCA Offline


Registered: 03/06/19
Posts: 4
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Thank you sir. So I guess that deters everyone from applying for a 15 group size and then just cutting down later if needed. But it's not that much of an issue to add an extra person just in case.

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#54776 - 03/09/19 07:56 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: MTtoCA]
Jonathan C Offline


Registered: 03/03/19
Posts: 19
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
"I'm assuming here they check each of the 15 dates for your max group size first and then check each date for max group size - n, etc. Not check your first date choice for any possible group size in your range, then second date for any possible groups size, etc. If they did the latter, you would be more likely to get a 1 person group on your first date choice than a 7 person group on your second date choice even if it was available!"

I'd be willing to bet it is the latter rather than the former. Doesn't make sense to me why they would do it the first way. I'm not sure why your hypothetical situation would be a bad thing. After you all you can set the minimum group size too. If you set the minimum group size as 1 for your first choice then why shouldn't the lottery think you would want 1 for that date above all other options? If not, just set the min and max to same number.

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#54788 - 03/13/19 07:37 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
MtMikeR Offline


Registered: 04/02/18
Posts: 18
Loc: Chicago, IL
The Inyo National Forest won't be doing progress reports, however, they did release that as of March 8th, they had received 10,636 applications requesting space for 52,332 people.

In comparison, 2018 saw a total of 12,228 applications requesting space for 53,576 people. 37% of those who applied last year, received one of their requested dates.

I have a feeling that we'll see a higher number of applications this year as this week's numbers have not been tabulated yet.

Good luck to everyone and can't wait until the 24th for the results!
_________________________
Mike

ďGetting to the top is optional. Getting down is mandatory.Ē
- Ed Viesturs

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#54789 - 03/13/19 09:23 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: MtMikeR]
KCMasterpiece Offline


Registered: 02/14/19
Posts: 5
Loc: California
According to this PDF, there were 16,077 applicants last year: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd574807.pdf

Either way, the shortened window didn't seem to impact the number of applicants very much. Good luck to everyone!

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#54801 - 03/14/19 08:49 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: KCMasterpiece]
heatpro Offline


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 11
Loc: CA, USA
Steve, can you confirm about the "Submit only one application. Groups that submit multiple applications will be rejected from the lottery"

I was under the impression, which I have also done in the past that you can purchase multiple tickets to increase your chances of winning and that is acceptable.

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#54803 - 03/14/19 10:04 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: heatpro]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
heatpro: Inyo implemented that policy last year. Before that, multiple entries did increase your chances. Don't do it now, I think it will completely remove all your applications.

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#54804 - 03/14/19 11:13 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
heatpro Offline


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 11
Loc: CA, USA
Thank you for clarifying. That is kind of strange that there are over 10,000 entries this year with (1 entry limit) compared to 16,000 last year during which I am sure most people were submitting multiple entries.

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#54807 - 03/14/19 03:02 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 403
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Sorry for complicating this, but it seems legitimate for someone to want to do two trips to the WZ in the same year. Maybe one to climb Whitney (and possibly Muir) and one to climb Russell. It seems reasonable to apply for the main trail with several dates in June and July, and then apply for the north fork with several dates in August. This isnít gaming the system. Would they still reject both applications?

Edit: This may seem to be just a hypothetical question, but I just checked my records. I climbed Whitney twice each in 1991, 1999, 2002, and 2009. Three times each in 2003 and 2012. And five times in 2010, including twice on July 29. Add in separate trips to both Whitney and Russell in 1992, 1994, and 1996, and there have been ten years when I made multiple trips to the Whitney Zone. Admitted, some of those trips were outside the quota period, and some were walk-up permits. But it still seems reasonable to want to make multiple trips in a year.


Edited by bobpickering (03/14/19 03:26 PM)

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#54809 - 03/14/19 03:36 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: bobpickering]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7742
Loc: Fresno, CA
I found the answer in last year's lottery discussion:

...you can load up on multiple trips. It's only in the lottery that you're only allowed one entry.

You can grab open slots during the April 1 free-for-all mini-sale, and any other time when open slots show up. And of course, use the walk-in method.

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#54812 - 03/14/19 08:00 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Steve C]
bobpickering Offline


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 403
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Thanks, Steve. I knew you would have the answer. Now that Iím 70, Iím thinking about climbing the CA 14ers one more time. That means one or two more trips to the Whitney Zone, but I may go off-season or get a mid-week walk-in to avoid the lottery hassle.

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#54814 - 03/14/19 09:51 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Jonathan C]
MTtoCA Offline


Registered: 03/06/19
Posts: 4
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: Jonathan C
"I'm assuming here they check each of the 15 dates for your max group size first and then check each date for max group size - n, etc. Not check your first date choice for any possible group size in your range, then second date for any possible groups size, etc. If they did the latter, you would be more likely to get a 1 person group on your first date choice than a 7 person group on your second date choice even if it was available!"

I'd be willing to bet it is the latter rather than the former. Doesn't make sense to me why they would do it the first way. I'm not sure why your hypothetical situation would be a bad thing. After you all you can set the minimum group size too. If you set the minimum group size as 1 for your first choice then why shouldn't the lottery think you would want 1 for that date above all other options? If not, just set the min and max to same number.


I'm actually a bit worried now. I put max group size 4 and min 1 as I still want a permit if we cant get a date for our max group size. There needs to be a lot more clarity on how the min and max works. I don't want a permit for 1 person on our first date choice if there's a spot for all four on our second date choice...

Edit: I actually think I found the answer. The below quote can be found at: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/inyo/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5150055

"For group size you can now choose to have a maximum group size considered first, and if there is not enough space be reconsidered for a smaller group size (down to your choice of minimum number of people) for each of the 15 trip choices on the lottery application."

Definitely seems like my first assumption was correct and there is no harm in putting your minimum group size at 1.


Edited by MTtoCA (03/14/19 09:57 PM)

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#54815 - 03/15/19 12:14 AM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: MTtoCA]
Jonathan C Offline


Registered: 03/03/19
Posts: 19
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
> Definitely seems like my first assumption was correct and there is no harm in putting your minimum group size at 1.

I suggest you call tomorrow (the 15th). If you get an answer on the phone and it turns out your assumption is wrong, you still have tomorrow to cancel and redo your lottery entries.

My $.02: that language doesn't disambiguate the method of selection. You're interpreting it to mean one thing, but it could just as easily mean "reconsidered for that date, prior to moving to the next date in the list". To me that is still the more logical method, but I really have no idea.

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#54817 - 03/15/19 01:06 PM Re: 2019 Whitney Lottery / Permits [Re: Jonathan C]
sumptimwong Offline


Registered: 03/15/19
Posts: 3
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Last day to submit your lottery applications, good luck everyone!

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