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#56387 - 09/30/19 03:55 PM Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20
Issy527 Offline


Registered: 09/30/19
Posts: 1
Loc: California
Hi all- I have 4 permits reserved for entry on Friday 10/18 and exit on Sunday 10/20. Unfortunately, my group will no longer be able to make it. Please let me know if you would like to take this off my hands. Happy hiking!

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#56388 - 09/30/19 07:38 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Issy527]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 371
Loc: Wildomar
LOL. It doesn't work that way. Read the fine print. On a positive note, someone is gonna get hooked up with your no shows..............................DUG

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#56389 - 09/30/19 09:51 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Issy527]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7926
Loc: Fresno, CA
Originally Posted By: Issy527
Hi all- I have 4 permits reserved for entry on Friday 10/18 and exit on Sunday 10/20. Unfortunately, my group will no longer be able to make it. Please let me know if you would like to take this off my hands. Happy hiking!


A little more info to backup what DUG wrote: Only the person who has reserved the permit can pick it up. You have to show ID. If you do the right thing and cancel your trip online, someone else can reserve those permits online. ...or you can just do nothing, and your slots go unused and remain unavailable to anyone else.

So please do the right thing!!!

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#56392 - 10/01/19 11:20 AM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Steve C]
bruce Offline


Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 129
Loc: Novato, CA
So I'm a little confused. With the new system in place where everything is done online and no more last minute no-show permits issued at the ranger station, does that mean that the no-shows get unused, and only those who cancel online go back into inventory?

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#56394 - 10/01/19 05:25 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: bruce]
Janelle S Offline


Registered: 09/26/19
Posts: 2
Loc: Southern California
What I've been told from friends who have gone to get walkup permits this year is that no day of walkups are available other then 4 for the mountaineering route due to the new system not providing not updates in time as to how many permits have been picked up.

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#56395 - 10/01/19 06:25 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Janelle S]
futbol Offline


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 77
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: bruce
So I'm a little confused. With the new system in place where everything is done online and no more last minute no-show permits issued at the ranger station, does that mean that the no-shows get unused, and only those who cancel online go back into inventory?


Originally Posted By: Janelle S
What I've been told from friends who have gone to get walkup permits this year is that no day of walkups are available other then 4 for the mountaineering route due to the new system not providing not updates in time as to how many permits have been picked up.


For reference, here is a picture of the message at the Eastern Sierra Inter-Agency Visitor Center reservation desk.



I was able to get a free walk-in permit for Shepherd Pass. The people who were looking to get a permit for Mt Whitney (not sure if only main trail or North Fork to Mountaineers' Route too) were asked to line up (I think in a separate line) and they would be seen in a first come, first served basis. I think this was for available next-day permits, but not 100% sure. They really want you to use the online reservation system and have a permit pre-reserved. Obviously, that is not practical for many people who did not get one via the lottery and live far away.

Note the part about picking a ticket by the door. That is new, I think.

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#56397 - 10/01/19 08:50 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: futbol]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7926
Loc: Fresno, CA
Bruce, the problem is the new software... You can reserve and cancel online. But when the deadline to pick up rolls around, the software doesn't have any way for staff to look at and release the no-shows. So the only permits that show up online are when a group shows up to get their permits, and they need fewer than they reserved, so those extras go back to the system.

...and of course the good people that cancel online. But we all know that most people won't make the effort to cancel online. If only they would give a partial refund.

I have been told that a software improvement has been requested, but who knows how long that will take.

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#56398 - 10/02/19 06:52 AM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Steve C]
bruce Offline


Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 129
Loc: Novato, CA
Well that would mean a few less people on the trail, as the no-shows don't get reallocated. I guess I don't need to call the ranger station to tell them I'll be coming after noon to pick up my permit anymore.

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#56411 - 10/04/19 08:47 AM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: bruce]
Hobbes Offline


Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 147
Loc: The OC
Originally Posted By: bruce
Well that would mean a few less people on the trail, as the no-shows don't get reallocated.


Exactly - sounds like a feature, not a bug.

Both the FS and parks are trying to manage the increased crowds everywhere throughout the range. Check out this reddit thread on revamped PCT permits: https://www.reddit.com/r/PacificCrestTra...istance_permit/

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out that if .gov incorporated the Whitney permit system for all other THs, the agencies would have an excellent means of saying "tough shit" without taking any personal heat.

I wonder what the net decrease in Whitney traffic was this summer? 50%? Steve has the cancellation/no-show data from prior years. There's no reason why that would have changed in abstract.

So, the historical basis of same day, last minute availability would now translate to that many people NOT hiking each day during 2019.

Clever, very, very clever.

PS USA population has doubled during the last 60 years since 1960. Increase in amount of available open space during same time period? Net increase in size/scope of the Sierra Nevada? (Trick question.)

Like any low tech organization, .gov simply uses a brute force method to penalize members of the newest generation(s) whose only crime was to be born too late. So, guess what eventually happens when people begin to wake up and realize they are being treated unfairly? You begin the long, slow process of debasing respect for the law as it is viewed as a tool of oppression, rather than a means of ensuring equality for all.

Slowly, but surely, the agencies need to accept that the entire range is on course to repeat the experience of what has happened in the Valley. So, the impetus is not to block, but to manage. Overuse prevention methods means keeping people on trails, it means having designated campgrounds (vs dispersed) in certain regions, and it means controlling/managing human waste.


Edited by Hobbes (10/04/19 09:04 AM)

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#56412 - 10/04/19 09:15 AM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Hobbes]
bobpickering Online


Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 451
Loc: Reno, Nevada
The problem isn't the permit system. It's overpopulation.

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#56414 - 10/04/19 05:03 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: bobpickering]
Hobbes Offline


Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 147
Loc: The OC
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
The problem isn't the permit system. It's overpopulation.


Exactly. Since no was asked to be born, nor were they allowed to choose their parents, nor country, nor sex, nor time, nor date & place, institutional rules & protections are assumed to be applied equally & fairly across different generations.

This is why we have government, legal systems and judicial processes. What if something you & I enjoyed in our youth was arbitrarily withdrawn to others in newer generations just because of differences in their birth years?

That is what is happening today. Here's a good analogy: I live by the beach in SoCal, and happen to enjoy it when it's relatively empty. What if some local agencies decided that only a set number of people could come to the beach in order that people like myself could enjoy the reduced crowds? That would be a pretty sweet - for me - huh? It's easy to draw this analogy out to any activity, access and/or traffic management aspect. Example: too many people driving today; we're gonna restrict driving licenses.

However, what is going to happen is that kids are going to figure out that they are being screwed - literally - and begin to question the rule of law. They're already saddled with huge college student loans, they graduate into a world that has reduced financial opportunities compared to their parents, and to top it off, they can't even go for a hike.

This is a recipe for push-back, and I predict it will become more widespread if the agencies don't address the real issue, which is what you said: population. They need to buck up and deal with the reality, not the concept. It took Yose awhile to come around with respect to the Valley, and this type of approach needs to be scaled up for the rest of the range.

If I was rebellious teen or young 20-something in today's world, I'd pretty much be right there alongside saying a big F-you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PacificCrestTra...and_management/


Edited by Hobbes (10/04/19 05:08 PM)

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#56417 - 10/04/19 10:38 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Hobbes]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7926
Loc: Fresno, CA
There are ways to convince people to have smaller families. But .gov still gives tax breaks and other incentives for having bigger ones.

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#56434 - 10/09/19 04:57 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Steve C]
Hobbes Offline


Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 147
Loc: The OC
Originally Posted By: Steve C
There are ways to convince people to have smaller families. But .gov still gives tax breaks and other incentives for having bigger ones.


Steve, there's a whole host of people posting here that are in their 50s. During our formative years (20s), approx 3 BILLION people had voluntarily (or forcefully) opted out of participation in the global economy.

By that, I mean mainland Chinese, the Indian subcontinent and Soviet block. They were stuck in their respective country regions, and we in the West got to run wild, treating all the "cool" places as our own.

You, me and everyone else in our generation not only had this world to ourselves where Calif had almost 1/2 as many people (20m vs 40m), but there was also very limited overseas tourism. In this context, it doesn't matter what local/nat'l gov't does - the primary growth segment is coming from foreign sources.

But the problem is that so many people seem to have built up these false expectations and sense of entitlement. Like the "way it was" is the rule, rather than the exception. In actuality, today is reality, as there are now 7 billion people in the world traveling hither and yon driving cross border traffic.

So when you get bureaucrats aligned with those who have difficulty accepting facts, we end up getting the types of ham handed, brute force methods seen in the WZ. But there are larger political realities, in that if the rule of law isn't applied fairly, society can descend fairly rapidly as disdain escalates into outright rebellion.

We can see it with the rangers - these people are simply civilians charged with set responsibilities. They aren't your/my boss and they don't own the land - they are part of the larger community, which is why they are still subject to the civilian justice system. Unlike military control, the only way policing works is to have community buy-in. But if a system is judged to be unfair, trust begins to erode and we all know where that leads.

That's why the parks and services need to abandon their confrontational style and begin to address how to actually manage ever increasing crowds. And, it's really not that difficult if one is willing to consider a few simple measures. Again, the Valley: (a) stay on trails & designated walk ways; (b) camp in designated tent sites; (c) place solar toilets in key strategic areas.

Not hard - rules can be applied by region in specific, heavily used areas eg Whitney, Half Dome, etc.


Edited by Hobbes (10/09/19 05:05 PM)

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#56450 - 10/14/19 02:44 PM Re: Selling overnight permits for 10/18 to 10/20 [Re: Hobbes]
AdventureUSA Offline


Registered: 07/09/19
Posts: 21
Loc: Santa Monica, CA
No need to sell those 4 tickets, friend. I'm returning 6 for the exact same time period tomorrow afternoon.

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