Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Bear Canisters??? Do We Really Need Bear Canisters???

I haven't read one report about bear sightings. Is there any chance that this time of year we won't have to carry bear canisters. They take up so much room and they're so heavy. I miss the good ol' days before bear canisters.

If you are staying overnight anywhere on the trail, you need a canister -- NOT for the bears, but for those pesky marmots and mice. They chew through packs and tents to get into your food.

Don't leave any food anywhere inside anything fabric!

When you head for the summit, leave your pack unzipped so the curious critters that sniff out old food smells won't have to chew through to find the food gone.

I don't think a tent is as vulnerable as long as you don't keep any food or lotions, etc inside.

Wow you are gonna stir up a hornets nest with this topic.I'm gonna go with the answer. "It's the rule and I am gonna follow the rules".

Lynn, your marmot-havoc potential has a lot to do with where you camp. Trail Camp is where the dinner bell rings for these little SOBs, and that's where they'll congregate in the summer. At the same time, Consultation Lake becomes less of an issue. We camped at CL in mid-July and had zero problems with marmots. We even left our tents up and zipped on summit day and returned to find nothing disturbed.

On the other hand, the later in the season, the fewer campers overnight at TC - thereby diminishing the buffet - and the marmots tend to wander a wider range looking for an easy meal, which can easily include CL.

That's just from a marmot nuisance perspective. From a peace-and-beauty standpoint, TC is a weak single and CL is a home run.

And as long as the Portal Store and campgrounds are open and thriving with people, the bears will tend to stay lower on the mountain (just ask Doug). Once the PS and campgrounds close for the season, they have to wander a wider range for food. I've read posts by folks who swear they've seen a bear at 12,000 feet. Certainly not impossible, but it's gotta be rare.

I got the message loud and clear, YES TO BEAR CANISTERS. I don't want to be the one stirring up a hornets nest. I just found it odd that no one was mentioning bears, but I had forgotten about the little white mice that run over you at night when you're sleeping (they're darling) and I also forgot about the marmots too. Heck, who ever invented those heavy monstrosities should have called them Marmot & Mice Cannisters....what in the world were they thinking.

All joking aside, think of the canister as a great camp chair. One of the posters on this board actually carried a folding chair to the summit. This chair protects your food & gives you peace of mind.

Heh! I used mine for a chair last time out, and ...it cracked!

BearVault is sending me a new lid.

About two or three weeks ago, I think I remember Doug saying there were 12 bears at the Portal. They need to come from somewhere and I'm not sure they would "avoid" a trail.

The interesting thing is how the bears were getting their food. I understand some come right up to the vehicle from behind when the person is taking stuff out of the car, SUV, etc. Then as the person gets startled and backs away, the bear takes his treat!

I know the bears must have learned that while they were surfing the internet.

Be very very afraid of bears bearing dimes!

One of my friends (who passed away recently), camped on the Grand Canyon of the Toulemne trail at Cathedral Creek. The bears (plural!) waited until he & his son had opened the canisters, then charged!

i was talking to the ranger dood down at the visitor center when I was picking up my permit. He said some of the bears were doing bluff charges to get people to abandon their food or packs.

He also said that the bear taking the burger out of the woman's hand was reaching urban legend status and that there is a fine line between a good story and exaggeration.

My wife just told me about a person who was staying at the Portal a week or two ago that had their soft cover camper shell slashed by at least one bear. He hikes the Sierras a lot, knows to put everything in the bear boxes and said there was absolutely nothing in the back of his truck, but the bears must have smelled something in there that had left a scent behind.

Gary Larsen did a cartoon with bear boffins trying to solve canisters. If anybody can find it, please post a link.

My second-favorite Far Side (bearly) behind the Thagomizer. Who knew that cartooning would lead to scientific immortality?.

"I considered this an extreme honor"

I differ with all posters here. The rule is, and I paraphrase, something that was designed to prevent access by bears. The key word is designed. As long as you stay in the Inyo National Forest, you can use a 6 oz. Ursack. It is certainly designed to prevent access by bears. If you search the Inyo website you will find the exact wording.

Secondly, if you are going to be camping at Trail Camp, bears are not the issue, marmots are. All you need to do is hang the Ursack from a rock above the ground.

My friends and I have been using Ursacks for over 10 years without a problem. In that time we have seen the ubiquitous Bear Vault fail on several occasions.

This is what I found: In 2009 the Inyo National Forest canister rules were anything manufactured to be bear resistant. This meant Ursacks were legal. However, Ursack lost its suit with the feds last fall; therefore, check the Inyo's website for what they deem acceptable before bring your perfectly fine Ursack.

I did a bit of research before investing in a heavy and bulky bear canister and if I remember correctly, you are allowed to use "Approved" bear resistant containers, in which Ursack was not on the approved container list.

Looks like Ursacks are not approved because they need to be hung....and a large portion of the Whitney Zone is above tree line. Here's a great link to a conversation I found from this board:

Ursack vs Bear Canisters

Not to be an a$$ or anything, but if the weight and bulk of a legal bear canister is going to break your back and ruin your trip, it's time to lighten up somewhere else and maybe get in better hiking shape. Is a canister really that big of a deal?

In all fairness though, I only carry it where I'm required to.......................................DUG

I'm in class on break and I just read this and started cracking up really loud. That was funny.

You're going to have me in stitches.

You said it, I'm not in hiking shape at all. I hope some of you are SAR.

Huh?????

Not sure where that came from. I use a hard case bear canister as does my wife.

I certainly would like to save weight, though yes, losing more than the weight I've lost since melanoma cancer and total hip replacement would help.

Please explain.....was that a comment on the subject or towards me personally???

Oh, he makes the same comment everytime anyone talks about the weight of packs, bear cans, etc.

I'll tell that I went from a rented Garcia heavy plastic bear cannister to a Bearikde composite material. At least 3 lbs in weight reduction with the same volume.My only problem with a bear cannister is where to strap it down on my new smaller light weight pack.It don't fit inside and they tend to roll off even when strapped down.I guess I need a good Navy man to teach me how to tie some knotts.I just might get that Navy man to carry it for me cuz he and Laura know no pain when it comes to epic hikes.

I can't find ANY Gary Larson cartoons on-line. He and his publishers don't allow it.

And here's a good reason: Barnes & Noble Marketplace: Complete Far Side (R) : Limited Edition, 1272 pages.   $1,979.99  

Edit: And I see td made a liar out of me!

we need bigger bear cannisters!

Nawwwww, QS, I am sure that there is nothing personal (agree with Ken) Just a generic remark. Froggie (the resident Navy rep in this house) makes comments like that all the time when the opportunity arises.

Explain? The SUBJECT was discussing the weight and bulk of a canister. I wasn't commenting on anyone personally, just posting MY opinion (that is still allowed isn't it?) on the subject of weight and bulk of a bear canister.

Is it REALLY that big of a deal? What does the heaviest canister weigh? Seriously, if the weight of the heaviest modern, approved canister is too much for someone to carry on their planned trip, than I (DUG, me, myself, I) am of the opinion that maybe it's time to look at saving weight some where else.

I have talked to backpackers bitching about the canister who were carrying four liters of water - up the main trail. I bet the can would feel a lot lighter if they dumped some of the water and planned their trip a little better.

Maybe not - but that's what I (again, this is MY opinion, which if I'm not mistaken I'm still allowed to have - Steve?? ) think.

Sorry to confuse or upset anyone. If and when I do ever comment towards someone "personally" it would normally be via email and/or PM and there would be no question of my intent. (which I TRIED to do with QS, but his box is FULL) Actually, if there was ever any doubt as to the meaning of my post a PM would be the better way to clear it up - again, just my opinion, your mileage my vary, to each his own, etc, etc.......................................................DUG

Really? I don't remember making enough comments on the subject to be known for it. I need to search some of my old material.

To be honest - I prefer to carry as little as possible. The MT trail can be day hiked with well under 10 pounds (water included) and overnight trips don't require much more if the weather is right. I'll happily carry the canister if the rules say I must or leave it if it's not required. It's not enough weight to make me care one way or another.

I guess if I do a search I'll find several hundred posts where I said the same thing before.

Anyone ever notice that when someone says something like "Not to be an A$$ or anything" the FIRST thought out of people's minds is that someone is TRYING to be an a$$? I mean, my gawd, if I was TRYING, I wouldn't go to the trouble of saying I wasn't trying........................................................DUG

Rod - I just put chit where ever it fits man. I'll dig up a pic of me on a 48 hour Sierra crossing that I used a small Camelbak and a fannypack for - the sleeping bag got strapped in front to my waist. When my brother showed pics of the trip to a hiking buddy the guy commented that I didn't look like I knew was I was doing. Maybe not, but I did 59 miles in 44 hours including a Whitney summit so I must have got something right................................DUG

The "NAVY" way to get the bear canister up the mountain would involve several thousand Power Point slides put together by a group of junior officers, many planning meetings, a POA&M (plan of action and milestones), a couple contracts that would be over time and over budget before being canceled with nothing to show for it and much, much more. In the end the top brass would be uptight and upset until some crusty ole Chief just straps the canister to his back and hauls it up in it's original configuration. Nothing would be learned of all of this and the process would repeat the very next time a canister needed to go up a mountain.

Of course that's just my opinion based on what I've seen, smelt, felt and lived through in my 25+ years of active Naval service (which sadly ends next year)..................................................DUG

Is this what you meant, Rod?

My canister weighs FIVE times what my pack does. (And I could probably fit three of my packs inside it, even though it fits inside the pack. ...huh???) So yes, the weight of that thing IS an issue. ...but I'm not complaining! Wouldn't want to stir up a hornet's nest.

Sometime, I'll post my story about chasing the bear away from my pack -- after he dragged it away.

It probably came in response to part of the very first post:


CaT

Where is the approved list? Order #04-10-02 for the year 2010 says "Containers designed to prevent access by bears", no specific brand of canister. However, if you go over NAP and head down the Rock Creek Drainage and enter Sequoia NP, you will need a SEKI approved canister, Ursack is not on their approved list...if you can find that list you are a better person than me. When I looked in August the link was broken. Ursack advised their product was not approved for this area; therefore, I took my Bearikade.

As for above the tree line, bears are not an issue. The Ursack gets hung off a wall, so the marmots can't get to it. I've used it that way many times, including Trail Camp in May 2007, and have not had any problems. I would be comfortable using a nylon stuff sack at Trail Camp but it's not designed to prevent access by bears; therefore, not in compliance.

maybe straying from the topic a little...maybe not. I don't mind the weight of the canister so much, but I do think they could design the shape a little better.

Instead of the pure cylindrical design, if one side was slightly concave it would conform to the shape of the back a little better.

I should point out that I don't stand my bear vault up in my pack, rather it is in the lowest part of my pack laying down.

The shape would probably not have as much strength as a proper cylinder, but it would certainly relieve pressure points.

I may experiement with heating my bear vault and reshaping it a little bit.

> I may experiement with heating my bear vault and reshaping it a little bit.

Try heating a plastic water bottle first. You might be surprised how quickly it shrinks! I doubt you would have a good result heating the BearVault.

I put my BV inside the pack vertically, but first I fan-fold my Thermarest Neoair mattress so it is between my back and the canister. Add clothing around the canister, then ...inflate the air mattress.   No more pressure points!

I called the Wilderness Permit office in Bishop at 760-873-2483 and talked to a nice woman named Cindy. I asked her about approved bear containers for the Whitney Zone. She said, and I quote: "For overnight permits, the Whitney Zone requires hard bear canisters". I asked her that if I had an overnight permit, but only went for the day, would I be required to carry a hard bear canister. She said yes.

She also pointed me to a site for approved containers. This may help....or may not.

Seki Allowed Food Storage Containers

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care either way as I've already purchased my containers and agree with DUG on less water, etc. Not a chance I'm spending more money on something that may weigh less.......well at least not until I sit on mine and break it.

And Lynn and DUG, my box is empty now......

p.s. What's going to happen when something REALLY controversial actually shows up on this site......like smaller burgers?

I dislike bearcans as much as anyone, but they do serve mult purposes. Here is another -if you are out a long time and if you wash yourself or clothes, add items, water, soap if you have it, shake well. Manually powered washing machine.

When I did Onion V to Whitney in August, I saw the hanging scale at the Whitney Portal timber thingy on my way down. My pack was 33 lbs. Of that the empty BearVault was 2.5 lbs. That's only 7.5% of the total.It just seems worse because most of the time it is densely packed with too much food. I always have some left over.

hmmm, that would be an expensive experiment...wouldn't it...

i'll keep the wandering topic going a little here...hope we don't need SAR

I'll be heading up on Sun for a day hike on Thurs. Orignally I wasn't planning on using a bear cannister, thinking a cooler or any container for the food would be ok as long as it was in the bear locker. (And since I don't own one, just another thing to add to the list of equipment upgrades needed) After reading about folks not securing the bear lockers, and the bears and other varmits becoming a little more 'assertive' in their quest for food, I'll be renting a bear cannister from the hostel/store to keep my food a little safer while I'm camping and day hiking. I would hate to return to camp after my first light hike on Monday and find all my vittles gone based on a bear locker that someone else left open. Hopefully, if something like that happens, I would be able to find the bear cannister in the general area with my vittles still inside.

FYI..The rental cost from the protal store/hostel is $2.00 per night.

??? I've never put mine IN the pack. I just tie it on somewhere, usually in the back. I thought that's what all those loop things were for. I would need to use my bigger pack to get it inside......................................DUG

You must be related to me. My wife says that is exactly how I talk.... I know with my kids, I will tell them something like "just pull the thingy out to the trash". They will ask "what"? and I'll just say it louder!

Smaller burgers???....Now that's just crazy talk

DUG,
it's interesting the different approaches people have to packing. I like heavier things to be very secure. Don't like any flopping about, iffin you know what I mean. I strapped my tent and daypack to the outside of my pack.

It doesn't flop around when I tie it on. And, my snacks are in a handy spot. I'm by no means a bear can expert, I'm rarely in a situation where it's needed and only once did I bring it when it wasn't required - (Meysan Lakes).

One pack I use it fits best tied to the back, another it fits best on top. Usually it holds all my small hiking crap in the closet though. It works great as a sink, chair and washing machine though as others have said.................................DUG

Another use could be shaking your ice, margarita mix, limes and tequila!

LOL@Q
I did use my bear vault as my kitchen counter, I didn't think of using it as the bar too.

clearly the multiple uses of the bear can answers the question of "do we really need bear canisters?"

and the answer is "how could we possibly have survived without them in the past?"

Per the request of Mr. Steve...the link to the aforementioned forest service order concerning containers designed to prevent access by bears.

Joe,

That contradicts their own order. I've always found when in doubt follow the written rules. They may change it next year but that is next year. I was told by the staff at ESIVC in 2009 and 2010 the Ursack was legal. When I was told in '09 it was ok, I searched their website for the memo, which I found. If they want to change the rules in 2011, I will comply. Until then, I will use my Ursack when traveling exclusively in the INF.

I've products manufactured by Garcia, BV, Ursack and Wild Ideas. I do not particularly care for Garcia or BV products. I will use my Ursack wherever it is legal and my Bearikade where it is not.

I love this topic! This morning, Cindy at the Wilderness Permit office told me "they are having a bit of confusion over the verbiage"....LOL

Clearly, if I didn't stir up a hornet's nest, then I must have opened a can of worms. It's unbelievable how something so simple as a bear canister can generate so much conversation.

Thanks to one of you.....now I know the BV only weighs 2.5#, so it's really not heavy, but it sure is bulky. The first time I carried a BV was in 2005 at Mt. Whitney. Rented two of them from REI for an arm and a leg ($2.00 at the Portal store is decent). I had borrowed an internal frame backpack that really didn't fit me well and the BV took up nearly the entire pack and I was very uncomfortable. (personally, I prefer an external frame pack like I used when I was 20 yrs. old and which I own now).

I think it would be fantastic if the Bear Vault company redesigned the canisters as Tom Dietz suggested and I especially like Steve C.'s idea of how to fit everything into his pack and then inflating his mattress (LOL).

Better yet, rather than redesign the BV, it seems clear to me that there is clearly not enough food in the forest for the bears, marmots and mice so I suggest we all get together one weekend, and go to areas far from the trails and campsites and plant a lot of berry bushes so all the critters will have plenty of fresh, wholesome food and not Cheetoes & Snickers. What do you think about that idea?

You think. And they wonder why folks don't follow them down the road of confusion.

Things need to make sense or folks will not comply.

Rare workday for me - away from all internet access for about 7 hours while I prepped and conducted a training seminar. Imagine my surprise when I hit the Zone and saw 30-something new posts on this one subject. I felt like I had been away a week!

I can't recall this much traffic on a single thread in such a short time since . . . well, that thread which shall remain nameless and locked. But it got us through the winter!

For the record, I have no opinion as bear vaults are pretty rare in the South and never mandated (at least not that I'm aware of). Our bears are pretty much wussies. Smokies NP and environs house the only bears in the South to be taken seriously.

lynn-a-roo.....Are you serious? I mean taking the Cheetos away from the bears! What would they eat? I find Snickers to be a fantastic snack for the bears. Berries are a bit too organic for a bear.

Better yet, I think we should get together at Consultation Lake one day. Gary, me and some of the more adventurous hikers could round up some nice Black Bears and teach them how to fish......... they LOVE fish!

On the other hand, Gary tells me that Bears also love "STEAK & BEER"! Come on Gary.....tell us again.

Joe, you round up the bears, dude, and herd 'em up to 12,000 feet. I'll be waiting with bated breath - and a fully-charged camcorder. "Adventurous" for me is sleeping with no tent fly. Or backpacking with certain folks who hate 4:00 am wake-up calls . . .

I wonder if bears like large pancakes?

CaT

does a bear ....

Well...he's (she's) not quite "in the woods" yet...

Campground? A definite yes judging from the auto in the background.

Campground, yes. That's a big part of the problem. I'd say the guy by the car might even be holding a camera.

Bear follows version of Sutton's Law.

For those who may not know, "The law is named after the bank robber Willie Sutton, who reputedly replied to a reporter's inquiry as to why he robbed banks by saying "because that's where the money is."

The guy in the car is taking a pic of the dummy taking a pic of a bear taking a.................................DUG

Don't I seem like a wise sage or prophet now? Since I predicted this topic would create a Hornets nest. There are certain topics that I can now predict when they are innocently asked on a message board is going to cause a wide range of opinions and thus emotional responses. It is just the way it is.Certain topics are hot button issues.
I am glad that this one went from serious,to a misunderstanding, reconciliation,and finally to humor.

"Isn't that the way they say it goes.Well forget all that...."
Jim Croce

Hey Rod.....Screw you!!!!!


Just kidding :-)

Seriously though.....I didn't misunderstand (I always think people are talking about me)....I mean, DUG told me I was fat, to go on a diet, work out more and grow up. Hey, He's ABSOLUTELY right. I'm not going to argue with a Navy Guy!!!!

Wait, maybe he wasn't talking about me.

Geeeez, I always go so Carly Simon...."I'll bet you think this post is about you".

p.s. Hiking Baldy Saturday....up the Bowl and down the Backbone.

p.s. 2 : DUG's my neighbor (true)