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How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
#8614 10/25/10 08:44 PM
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Wagga's post on the anniversary of this fine Forum and mention of it's origin (which I guess I missed) does remind me of these seemingly now-annual Fall SARs on Whitney and elsewhere. Three (Brunette last year and what we're calling Omaha and Meysan Lake SAR) this year) have cost probably over $50,000 (a Chinook adds considerably to an already high SAR cost...). To say nothing of the effort and danger to SAR people. These are our tax dollars at work -- or, arguably, just pissed away as a result of testosterone poisoning.

In each case, these individuals rescued or searched for were warned by experienced individuals to "Turn Around -- it's just going to get worse!!" They didn't and a major SAR (and one death) were the result.

How can we stop this sort of thing? What sorts of effort can the climbing community and agencies (NPS and USFS) put into effect to get people to pay attention to weather, to take seriously the dangers of hiking at altitude after about September 20th (+/- ...)???

Suggestions sought and hugely encouraged!

Thanks,

George

Last edited by George; 10/25/10 08:46 PM.

None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8619 10/25/10 08:58 PM
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From a fellow IDF veteran:

Equip the permit office with the NOAA weather mock-up/Sat imaging(available on-line). When a known whopper of a storm is coming in, and folks still insist on a permit to enter the mayhem, they should be 1)forced to sign off on a yes-I-am-an-idiot form that alerts the media that they knew what was coming 2)leave an open visa draft that allows the NPS/FS/SAR to fill in the $$$ blank if/when an extraction is required. This should (hopefully) cause people to think twice before entering hazzardous conditions (and possibly jeopardizing others when things go south)

Note the mention of known hazard; we do not advocate penalizing someone for an honest-to-goodness accident in the hills.

Permitting stops at -- I believe -- the end of October; however, I have noticed that once the trail freezes up, the idiot stampede is seriously curtailed, if not cut off altogether.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8627 10/25/10 11:03 PM
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It has been pretty well known that quite a majority of Whitney hikers don't even know about the Whitney Forums. I believe that the more people learn, the better prepared they will be.

I think links to this site (and WPSMB if need be) on the USFS and SEKI websites might help get more information to more people. And I mean links with all necessary disclaimers, of course.

Our primary goal here is to share information with other hikers.

I also hope to ask the permit office to mention this forum in the permit information that goes out with the reservations. George, lending your voice to that request would really help.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Steve C #8628 10/25/10 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
It has been pretty well known that quite a majority of Whitney hikers don't even know about the Whitney Forums. I believe that the more people learn, the better prepared they will be.


I do not think that this was a factor in any of the three cases that George mentioned, as quoted below:

Originally Posted By: George
In each case, these individuals rescued or searched for were warned by experienced individuals to "Turn Around -- it's just going to get worse!!" They didn't and a major SAR (and one death) were the result.[


They were adequately warned. Most of them were experienced. They chose to ignore thee most pertinant information available: the deteriorating weather.

I believe that all the information and hand-holding in the world will not do the trick with this special breed of folk, rather, in this case, only the stick will do.





The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Steve C #8629 10/25/10 11:33 PM
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George you know nothing will change.You can't legistrate morality,you can't educate idiots, and you can't disuade the testosterone induced summit driven macho men.Has it ever really been different? Except that now they send out SARs that recover bodies and rescue dummies instead of waiting till spring to collect the bodies.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bee #8630 10/26/10 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bee
I do not think that this was a factor in any of the three cases that George mentioned, as quoted below:

Originally Posted By: George
In each case, these individuals rescued or searched for were warned by experienced individuals to "Turn Around -- it's just going to get worse!!" They didn't and a major SAR (and one death) were the result.


They were adequately warned. Most of them were experienced. They chose to ignore thee most pertinent information available: the deteriorating weather.


Bee, I think there is a difference between being warned at the last minute as they are preparing to step on the trail, and being informed via reading the information. (I believe you, too, were the recipient of well-meaning but a little overzealous warning last month when you picked up permits.)

A verbal warning at the last minute... can be blown off as some "Chicken Little" rant. Especially when you have all your gear there, ready to go. Warnings like those make some people want to prove the messenger wrong.

But if they have read the information, complete with examples of SARs and fatalities, there is a better chance of it's being trusted, believed and absorbed.

But if they have never heard of a site like this, all they have is those last minute warnings.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Steve C #8631 10/26/10 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve
Bee, I think there is a difference between being warned at the last minute as they are preparing to step on the trail, and being informed via reading the information. (I believe you, too, were the recipient of well-meaning but a little overzealous warning last month when you picked up permits.)


I don't know how much more the point of the bad weather could have been driven home, seeing that the sky was falling in chunks as those guys were pushing forward. It seems to me that anyone who was going to choose to be that stubborn, obstinate, willful about pushing toward the summit would not have been dissuaded by reading about *the chance* of bad weather in a theoretical, informative format.

My experience/warning? Yes, when I went to pick up my permit, a well-meaning individual behind the desk sternly warned me that my plans to sleep on the summit could get me killed. Exact words: "You can die up there!!" Although I was, indeed, irritated over the fact that I seemed to be singled out for this predicted death, the point was taken -- even though the sky was crystal clear and had been all the prior week(and all day up the summit). The morning after sleeping on the summit, we did wake up to a nearby cell, and let me tell you, while everyone else was looking at the cell, I was back at camp stuffing everything like mad into my pack, so that I could make a hasty exit should I need to (I was, afterall, singled out for imminent death)As it turned out, the cell went north, I missed most of the sunrise, and everything went perfectly.....but I was still ready to make a hasty departure.

Steve, I am not saying that the message boards do not have their place in the information sphere, rather, I am saying that with the unique personality profile that George speaks of, reference material, weather models, & anecdotes are probably going to be ineffective. Such single-minded zealots exist in all avenues of the population (some of them become so fixated on their endeavor that they are willing to undertake exploits that have a 100% mortality failure). Luckily, we are just talking about hiking in this case.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Steve C #8632 10/26/10 06:05 AM
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One factor common to Wade Brunette (from Washington) and the Nebraska contingent is that they were from out of state, and were making a special, concerted effort to do something that they had dreamed of for years. In both cases there was undoubtedly the underlying thought that, "If I don't do this now, who knows when I'll have a chance to come back and try again?"

That's not to suggest that those living closer to the Eastern Sierra don't make bad choices as well at times, but most don't have the added pressure of "now or possibly never" banging away in their heads.

Both cases were also a first attempt on Whitney, although all involved had a reasonable to impressive degree of mountaineering experience. This makes me wonder if a certain level of under-estimation was at play in the "Whitney Walk-up" mentality.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8633 10/26/10 06:31 AM
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The issue is a lot like wag bags - no easy fix. The public wants access to the mountains and they want a safety net if they get in over their heads. Just when you think - "no one is dumb enough to do xxxxxx", someone dumb enough will prove you wrong.

Unless you restrict access when "someone" decides it's too dangerous or you stop bailing them out when they get over their heads it will remain as it is.

I don't have any good ideas or answers - I just know for every great idea there will be five "reasons" why it won't work.

In the meantime let's give thanks for the brave SAR folks who save not only those who had an accident, but those truely stupid who pressed on way past their limits.........................................DUG

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bee #8634 10/26/10 07:11 AM
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"It seems to me that anyone who was going to choose to be that stubborn, obstinate, willful about pushing toward the summit would not have been dissuaded by reading about *the chance* of bad weather in a theoretical, informative format."

I agree somewhat. Those guys were keeping track of their mileage and they were probably thinking "it's only one more mile, that's nothing. We can make it."

The problem arises when putting that one mile into the context of 14,000' and a snowstorm. Hell, it's probably even worse when there is good visibility, and weather is moving in. "I can see the summit, it's right there. I'll beat the storm"...but again the context of 14,000'+ makes a big difference.

Watching the series on the guys climbing Mt Everest we saw the same thing there with very experienced climbers. I imagine hypoxia has a role in a lot of the bad decisions that are made at higher altitudes.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8635 10/26/10 07:22 AM
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Perhaps the only sure way of preventing people from walking into danger on the Whitney trail wouild be to post rangers at the trailhead to prevent hikers from continuing. That would have been possible in the old USSR, but this is a free country; that idea would never fly. Just think of the law-suits! Unfortunately, people are free to do very stupid things. It's a pity that others have to put their lives on the line to rescue them, but that's a fact of hiking life.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bob West #8638 10/26/10 07:47 AM
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Until reliable field tests are developed for TT (Testosterone Toxicity) and/or CSD (Common Sense Deficiency), education will continue to be the best method.

At certain trailheads in New Hampshire's White Mountains you will see signs similar to this link. They also appear at treeline on some trails. I don't know how effective they are in practice, but at least for me they remind me to do a mental, and sometimes physical, inventory of clothing and safety gear in my pack. Perhaps the Inyo US Forest Service and/or Park Service should consider their use on the Mt Whitney Trail.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bob West #8639 10/26/10 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bob West
Perhaps the only sure way of preventing people from walking into danger on the Whitney trail wouild be to post rangers at the trailhead to prevent hikers from continuing. That would have been possible in the old USSR, but this is a free country; that idea would never fly. Just think of the law-suits! Unfortunately, people are free to do very stupid things. It's a pity that others have to put their lives on the line to rescue them, but that's a fact of hiking life.


And frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Someone here on WZ has part of the JFK quote as their sig "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

Take the risk out of equation and the accomplishment isn't quite the same.

Realistic expectations and proper preparation will mitigate risk much more than a warning the day of the hike. This website and the WPSMB definitely helped me to set my expectations and prepare for my first successful summit this year.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
KevinR #8640 10/26/10 08:59 AM
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Thanks for the link to the sign, Kevin. Maybe a sign at the base of the switchbacks would be helpful, just during the fall.

And thanks for the votes for more education and information.

Here's a clip of the sign, originally from Wikimedia Commons.



Of course, I've advocated for a sign on the west side, too, somewhere between the JMT / Portal trail junction and Guitar Lake to warn disoriented hikers from the summit that they are on the wrong trail if they are trying to get to Whitney Portal.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
tdtz #8642 10/26/10 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: tdtz
Someone here on WZ has part of the JFK quote as their sig "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

Take the risk out of equation and the accomplishment isn't quite the same.
Sometimes our stated motivations distort reality. For example, we chose to go to the moon not because it was hard but because we feared that the USSR would get there first.

Maybe some people choose to do Whitney under risky conditions not because it is hard but because they totally underestimate the danger. And, needless to say, the danger that their rescue will represent for others.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
AlanK #8643 10/26/10 09:52 AM
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How about if they left the bodies where they died on the trail as they do at Everest. Might have some impact. Throw a little lime to keep the maggots down.Nothing is going to stop the hell bent summit fever driven climber.Why do climbers continue to climb Mt. Hood in full on storms during winter? Especially when they know the forecast?

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Rod #8645 10/26/10 10:19 AM
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hey, we're not even supposed to throw peach pits away in the wilderness, those bodies would really mess with the ecology.

smile

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Rod #8646 10/26/10 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rod
How about if they left the bodies where they died on the trail as they do at Everest. Might have some impact. Throw a little lime to keep the maggots down.Nothing is going to stop the hell bent summit fever driven climber.Why do climbers continue to climb Mt. Hood in full on storms during winter? Especially when they know the forecast?


This is the best idea I've heard. As I take scouts up in July or August I could explain what happens if you push beyond your abilities. But, since we live in a PC world it won't happen. smile

And as for more signs - Steve, you're my bud and I value your input, but LESS signs are better. Make people learn to use a compass, map or even a GPS. Plenty of SIGNS on the PCT/JMT, why did the Meysan Lake duo go all the way over Glen Pass? Probably because they didn't have a map. The signs were useless to them. I've said it before and I'm saying it again - if you get lost coming DOWN from Whitney you - 1. Haven't done your homework and studied the maps, 2. Are light headed because you went up too fast, 3. Are exhausted because you pushed yourself too far, 4. Are an ID 10 T.

I often joke that the MT is "a punk hike" and it's usually my 2nd hike of the season. I still don't take it lightly. If you are prepared and show the mountain some respect while using common sense your odds of coming home safely are very good. Odds of making the summit are pretty decent as well.

A real hiker knows when to pull the plug and come home safely. Let's try to use SAR for actual emergancies and accidents - not summit fever.

Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary, to each his own, etc............................................DUG

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Rod #8648 10/26/10 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rod
How about if they left the bodies where they died on the trail as they do at Everest.

There are times when this approach appeals to me, as when people make really dumb decisions that put others at risk. However, the truth is that this is not Nepal or China. As in most first world countries, we are going to have SAR teams that will work, in the face of personal expense and risk, to rescue even the dumbest. I am glad that these folks are out there and glad that I live in a place that has such priorities.

Let's face it, people who work in coal mines know that it is risky. China just accepts thousands of mining deaths per year. Chile goes to enormous trouble to rescue 33 miners. Where would you rather live?

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Rod #8649 10/26/10 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rod
How about if they left the bodies where they died on the trail as they do at Everest. Might have some impact. Throw a little lime to keep the maggots down.
i'm with you on this one. however, there are over 100 bodies on everest. many in plain sight. doesn't stop anyone from going.

apparently when you die up high enough you are freeze dried and don't decompose. so much for the maggots.

but i agree, leave them in place.

reader's digest, indeed!

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8653 10/26/10 11:26 AM
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I'm not completely sure how I feel about it all because on the hikers side I completely support their right to get themselves killed. Then on the other hand of considering danger to SAR I feel mixed yet I think I lean more towards the notion that as a SAR personnel you are accepting risk associated with your job so is it unfair to them to be out looking for you when that is what they signed up for?

If we asked the same of a firefighter do we blame the person that left bacon on the stove unattended for causing a fire that puts response teams in danger or do we accept that they signed up for that job?

In the end it doesn't make deaths less tragic but it does give acceptable reason IMO.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
smithb #8655 10/26/10 11:38 AM
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Outside of the lighthearted discussion for effect, I think that there is a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison between Everest and Whitney.

We send up SAR teams and helicopters because we can. Where it is absolutely true that life in China is often cheap as exemplified by the mining analogy (which is 100% true, btw), the real reason they don't remove the bodies on Everest is that it is truly life threatening to anyone who would take on the extra burden of the body. And sending ground teams up specifically for bodies or rescue is pretty tough when you take into account the amount of acclimation that must happen.

And the highest altitude that a helicopter has ever flown is 20,000'.

So, the reason we rescue people on Whitney and don't leave bodies up there is simply because we can.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
tdtz #8657 10/26/10 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: tdtz
And the highest altitude that a helicopter has ever flown is 20,000'.



Actually, it's more than DOUBLE that - 40,820 ft. smile

Since we're keeping this light hearted...................................................DUG

Last edited by DUG; 10/26/10 11:50 AM.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
DUG #8658 10/26/10 11:54 AM
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I believe George is looking for serious input, not comic relief related to dead bodies.

But, I could be wrong.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
tdtz #8659 10/26/10 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: tdtz
And the highest altitude that a helicopter has ever flown is 20,000'.

Sorry, this gets off the main topic a bit, but:

Actually, the highest a helicopter has landed in mountaineering (if available, if practically useful)has been
getting higher and higher - over 20,000 ft in 2010. (If Cindy reads this, have they removed that old, heavy, crashed Russian helicopter from the side of the Lukla runway? No way it could ever had gotten that high.)
Helicopter rescue Annapurna

The highest a specially modified helicopter (not available in Namche Bazaar, Lukla, or Kathmandhu) has landed (temporarily) was in 2005 on the summit of Everest.
French helicopter lands on Everest

I could go on, sorry I will. World record is over 40, 000, obviously super modified and no payload.
Absolute helicopter altitude record

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
DUG #8661 10/26/10 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: DUG
Originally Posted By: tdtz
And the highest altitude that a helicopter has ever flown is 20,000'.



Actually, it's more than DOUBLE that - 40,820 ft. smile

Since we're keeping this light hearted...................................................DUG


looks like I should have looked deeper into my google search....I misread anyway...it was hovering that they were talking about.

and there has been a helicopter landing at the top of Everest
http://www.spadout.com/wiki/index.php/Didier_Delsalle_lands_Helicopter_on_Everest
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/17820-13-helicopter-altitude-record-broken-everest

Last edited by tdtz; 10/26/10 12:08 PM.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
tdtz #8663 10/26/10 12:18 PM
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I'm going to guess that all these hikers didn't expect it to snow. There was already snow on the ground, but if you see clouds and it starts to snow, you should either stay put until you know it is going to stop, or better yet, go back. If you note, all 5 hikers this year and Wade from last year were from out of state. That doesn't make them less skilled, just more financially obligated to their goal to summit the mountain.

I like the sign idea. And, I'm not adverse to the person that needs to be extracted pays at least some of the cost. I believe the three hikers in the hut did something pretty stupid. I'm glad they are safe, but come on....it was snowing, then it snowed more, it got deeper and they still decided to keep going. There may be more to the story. With Wade, I believe he really thought he could summit, had the skills to summit, but somewhere along the line he became disoriented. If you remember, he was seen and I believe was talked to by a couple of hikers past Trail Crest. They were both concerned about him and his ability to go further. In other words, I don't think Wade did anything stupid. I think by the time it came for him to make crucial decisions, he couldn't.


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Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
tdtz #8665 10/26/10 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: tdtz
We send up SAR teams and helicopters because we can. Where it is absolutely true that life in China is often cheap as exemplified by the mining analogy (which is 100% true, btw), the real reason they don't remove the bodies on Everest is that it is truly life threatening to anyone who would take on the extra burden of the body. And sending ground teams up specifically for bodies or rescue is pretty tough when you take into account the amount of acclimation that must happen.

And the highest altitude that a helicopter has ever flown is 20,000'.

So, the reason we rescue people on Whitney and don't leave bodies up there is simply because we can.

Fair point. I found it suddenly easier to think about coal mines than Everest. smile

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
quillansculpture #8666 10/26/10 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
I'm going to guess that all these hikers didn't expect it to snow.



I spoke to the younger Meysan Lake guy on the Saturday prior about the trail. DougSr had mentioned to him that I took scouts up there through the snow in June. I couldn't offer much info, but I did tell him snow was expected and we would be racing the weather on our hike up Thor the next day. DougSr also showed him the NOAA forecast on his netbook in the kitchen.

I'm pretty sure at least that guy knew it might snow.

Too bad they didn't know the area or have a decent map - a hungry man can get to Roads End from Forester pass pretty quickly if he makes the left turn down Bubbs................................DUG

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
George #8670 10/26/10 12:46 PM
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There is another remote possibility, that they knew a storm was coming and that is why they went!

More then once my dad and I have set out for a trip because a major storm was on it's way.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
RoguePhotonic #8676 10/26/10 04:23 PM
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This seems like a good time to draw from my Words From On High collection.
Feel free to comment on your favorite quote about the weather, Harvey

We arranged everything to our satisfaction except the weather.
Geoffrey Winthrop Young,On High Hills page 168

Mountaineering, like farming, sailing, and all our most interesting activities, is a chancy business ruled largely by the weather.
HW Tilman, Everest 1938 page 502

Those who ignore weather signs lose half their climbing days; those who deliberately disregard, or despise, them, may lose their lives.
Geoffrey Winthrop Young, Mountain Craft, page 48

Battling with an unknown climb in the mist is like fighting a battle without any knowledge of how the enemy has disposed his forces.
RLG Irving, Ten Great Mountains, page 11

The mountaineer must climb with his finger on the pulse of the weather...like an experienced seaman he must be able to smell bad weather before it comes.
Frank Smythe, The Mountain Vision, page 233

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Harvey Lankford #8678 10/26/10 04:54 PM
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Great quotes Harvey.
I certainly hope that I don't have to explain my comments were with my tonque firmy planted in my cheek.Of course we rescue those and recover bodies because we can.In fact I am amazed at the all out efforts that are given even when hope is fading to risk life to save life.

I certainly respect those Rangers and SARs who risk so much to save some that stupidly place their life in danger. It is another thing when an accident that is unforeseen happens in spite of preparation and planning.In either case I am glad there are resources available to save peoples lives.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Rod #8681 10/26/10 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rod
I certainly hope that I don't have to explain my comments were with my tonque firmy planted in my cheek.Of course we rescue those and recover bodies because we can.In fact I am amazed at the all out efforts that are given even when hope is fading to risk life to save life.

Since I was one of those who responded to your post, yes, I definitely took your post as tongue in cheek. But I also sympathized with the sentiment that must have caused you to post that.

There are people who seriously propose no-rescue zones for places where there are a lot of rescues involving really dumb circumstances. I don't think it's going to happen, but I certainly understand what drives the suggestions.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
KevinR #8685 10/26/10 07:20 PM
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C
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KevinR, Thanks for the link. In 1979 I thru hiked the AT and remember well seeing these signs throughout the Whites. More sobering were the simple wooden crosses that dotted the highlands. These marked the spot where a body was found/recovered. More impactful was the large display at the summit of Mt. Washington or maybe it was down in Tuckerman Ravine. On this display, dating back to the late 1800's were the names of people who had died on the mountain. In a column beside the names you would see one of three words fall, exposure, or missing-never found. Maybe a display like this at the trailhead would make people think. Also, if I had a loved one that had perished on the mountain, I would not be hurt by having their name on such a display.

Thanks John

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
catpappy #8686 10/26/10 07:34 PM
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CaT Offline
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Originally Posted By: catpappy
KevinR, Thanks for the link. In 1979 I thru hiked the AT and remember well seeing these signs throuhgout the Whites. More sobering, were the simple wooden crosses that dotted the highlands. These marked the spot where a body was found/recovered. More impactful was the large display at the summit of Mt. Washington or maybe it was down in Tuckerman Ravine. On this display, dating back to the late 1800's were the names of people who had died on the mountain. In a column beside the names you would see one of three words fall, exposure, or missing-never found. Maybe a display like this at the trailhead would make people think. Also, if I had a loved one that had perished on the mountain, I would not be hurt by having their name on such a display.

Thanks John

Best idea yet among all the good ideas I've seen here.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
CaT #8691 10/26/10 07:47 PM
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H
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How about some of these?


                Memorial cairn

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
catpappy #8693 10/26/10 08:03 PM
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John, I'm with CaT - that may be the best and most effective idea I've heard on this problem.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bulldog34 #8696 10/26/10 08:15 PM
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I agree that a sign could work.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bee #9030 11/07/10 06:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Originally Posted By: Bee
When a known whopper of a storm is coming in, and folks still insist on a permit to enter the mayhem, they should ... leave an open visa draft that allows the NPS/FS/SAR to fill in the $$$ blank if/when an extraction is required.
This may well be the best idea of the bunch. "Something might happen" doesn't register with a lot of people, but when you put it in dollar terms, it's like another portion of the brain clicks on. "Whoa! Wait just a minute here. You mean this might cost me something?"

Laugh if you like, but, yes, people will respond more to dollars than to a general "something really bad might happen" warning.

HJ


Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
hikin_jim #9031 11/07/10 06:48 PM
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Bee Offline
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People can laugh again at the Helmet & Seat belt law* too, but when $$$$ were attached to contrary behavior, folks toed the line in droves (and the statistics improved along with safety measure "participation")




*Just to clarify: I am not in favor of over-legislation....only when it costs me $$$$ when others cannot exercise common sense


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bee #9037 11/07/10 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bee
People can laugh again at the Helmet & Seatbelt law* too, but when $$$$ were attached to contrary behaviour, folks toed the line in droves (and the statistics improved along with safety measure "participation")




*Just to clarify: I am not in favour of over-legislation....only when it costs me $$$$ when others cannot exercize common sense


Maybe someday fines will have the same effect on cellphones/texting while driving, or even littering. I'm not holding my breath. Those aren't overtly visible if the driver is cautious.

Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
Bulldog34 #9038 11/07/10 08:44 PM
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Way back when, I used to travel from Ventura to LA to troubleshoot/repair our banking software. The driver used to stop at some place with "Dome" in the name (LiquorDome?) in Malibu and buy some kind of beer labeled "Mickey". It came in a very short, wide green bottle. Driver explained that the bottle was a lot less visible to law enforcement. Guess it worked.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: How not to die on Mt. Whitney (and elsewhere...
wagga #9042 11/07/10 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: wagga
Way back when, I used to travel from Ventura to LA to troubleshoot/repair our banking software. The driver used to stop at some place with "Dome" in the name (LiquorDome?) in Malibu and buy some kind of beer labeled "Mickey". It came in a very short, wide green bottle. Driver explained that the bottle was a lot less visible to law enforcement. Guess it worked.


What I perscribe for those who drink and drive would leave them begging to write a check.....but I digress*

Back on topic.



*work-related experiences with the victims of drinking drivers/drunk drivers leave me more than intolerant


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
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