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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
Greg T #8906 11/03/10 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Greg T
...My friend has never hiked Whitney but says that running a marathon is harder...my friend will come to Whitney with me this summer and we will find out!

I have known "ultra-marathoners" who thought it could be done "without" having to train. I told them that hauling their "sustenance" in a pack on their back does make a tremendous difference. Extra weight, center of gravity, etc. They take off like jackrabbits only to start slowing down after TSM on the way to TC then bonk at the base of the SBs.

Well, they found out the hard way. When they turned around to go back I mentioned, "Hey, at least your are halfway there."

Hiking MW is definitely a lot tougher than a 26.21875 mile marathon. I don't know of too many marathons starting at 8,365 feet. Maybe there's one, but who knows.

Your friend is in for an "enlightenment" if he/she thinks marathons are tougher.

Hope your friend heeds the advise of all. I wish your friend the best and that the both of you make it to the summit regardless of your "disagreement."




Have fun.


Journey well...
Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
+ @ti2d #8908 11/03/10 01:38 PM
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Interesting discussion topic and lively debate. In my personal experience a marathon is considerably harder than Whitney, but I do think this is a bit of an "apples to oranges" comparison. It think it depends upon how you approach each activity. The big difference is that most of us "hike" Whitney while we "race" a marathon. It would obviously be much easier to walk 26.2 miles on a typical marathon course than hike 22 miles gaining/losing 6,100' of elevation over broken ground, and deal with the altitude. However, if you really run a marathon, it is pretty darn tough.

I have trained for 3 marathons, but only ran one due to injuries sustained while training for the other two that caused me to have to stop training and withdraw before the races. When I ran my first and so far only marathon, it was a very hot day and I was pushing hard as I wanted to hit my time goal which would qualify me for Boston, (under 3:30 for my age group). I did hit my Boston qualification time goal even though I didn't do as well in the race as I was expecting. When I crossed the finish line, I was done, finished, kaput. I had a hard time walking after the race and was limping around for the next couple of days. Conversely on Whitney I felt good when I arrived back at the Portal Store and had plenty of gas left in the tank. Furthermore my 17-year old son hiked Whitney with me without doing any training at all and really performed well. I am pretty sure he wouldn't have any chance of "running" a marathon unless he put in a considerable amount of training. In fairness our trip was an overnight hike up the Mountaineers Route which I don't think would be as fatiguing on the legs as a day hike of the 22 mile MT.

Again, it is apples to oranges as most of us would generally "race" the marathon while we "hike" Whitney. In a marathon I never stop running and drink my water/Gatorade and eat my 3 GU's without breaking my pace. I think when most of us hike Whitney we take plenty of rest stops to enjoy the views, drink/eat, take pictures, and talk to fellow hikers. If however I was to actually attempt to run/race the 22 miles up/down Whitney with 6,100' of elevation gain/loss while pushing as hard as I could, I am quite sure I would be a total mess when or if I finished. Perhaps a more apples to apples comparison would be comparing a day hike of Whitney to someone who completed a marathon using the Galloway Method, (run/walk), to cover the 26.2 mile distance in a more relaxed fashion than many runners take when they show up to "race or run" a marathon.

Running a marathon and hiking Whitney are both allot of fun and accomplishments to be proud of no matter how long they take you. It is all good.

Off topic, I am currently training for Boston 2011....anyone else in the Whitney Zone family running Boston this year? Joe: I will have to remember that Wild Wild West Marathon.....sounds pretty cool...maybe we can put together a Whitney Zone Team? If we end up doing Wazzu's East-sider vs West-sider with loser buying the beverages wager, I guess I am a East-sider since I am coming from Florida?

Kent Williams

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
trail runner #8913 11/03/10 02:15 PM
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Great point about "hiking Whitney and running a race" in a marathon.I personally don't think I could ever run a marathon due to knees and back. That is why I took to running stadium stairs for my workouts. That didn't hurt either. I have had "runner" friends join me and die on the stairs and get incredibly sore.That being said I can hike Whitney and not be affected by AMS while some marothoners might get AMS and not make the summit.
The question is which is harder and the answer should be for who?

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
trail runner #8915 11/03/10 02:37 PM
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Hey Kent... I just thought of something. What about the "wall"? I guess you do get it in both events, hiking Whitney and marathons. But, when I hit the wall in a marathon (and again, it's been almost 11 years), it is an extremely mental experience. I tell people it's like feeling "Why am I out here? Why am I running?" and I felt this between 18 and 22 miles and only once in a marathon and once in my first training run of 22 miles.

I get a similar feeling on Whitney and other hikes, but it's earlier, just a few miles in, AND then it goes away for good. When hiking Whitney with Gary, Bulldog34, I told him that sometimes I feel it on a hike and he said he sometimes feels it more than once at the early stages of a hike. Once again, it goes away for him (If I remember correctly.) And, it's always mental, not physical.

Just wanted to add that and see if anybody else has similar experiences.


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
quillansculpture #8920 11/03/10 05:14 PM
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Joe:

Interesting point. Yes, I too have hit the wall. It seems to appear at approximately 20 miles for most of us. It may be partly mental, but I believe it is mostly physical. Hopefully somebody who knows their stuff can chime in and bail me out here, but I think your body runs out of glycogen stores or something like that and you start to fall apart. I just know you feel totally spent when this happens. I have made it through all of my 20 to 23 mile training runs without hitting the wall as I run those at an easier pace than my race pace. When I ran the Chicago Marathon I did hit the wall at approximately 20 miles and had to fight to keep from really falling off my pace and missing my goal. I think I slowed by at least 1 min per mile for miles 20-25, but found a bit of a kick for the last mile when the finish was in sight.

I would imagine most who hit the wall on Whitney are dealing with AMS more so than the typical marathon wall, but perhaps some think they have AMS when they really just hit the wall? A little of both maybe?

Last edited by trail runner; 11/03/10 06:19 PM.
Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
trail runner #8924 11/03/10 06:51 PM
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I've been out of town 2 days and just saw this topic.

For what it is worth: the Marathon World Record on a paved surface is 2:03.59 for the full 26.2 miles.

By way of comparison, the Ascent half marathon (13.1 miles) on Pikes Peak is 2:01.06, not that much faster for HALF the Marathon distance. The same runner has done the full Pikes Peak Marathon in 3:16.39 vs his best road marathon 2:19.44 (Matt Carpenter)

I have referred to Matt several times on the Whitney Boards and suggested he could easily run Portal to summit and back to Portal in under 3:20. Google his name if you want to see impressive Mt racing results, especially under Wikipedia.

I have run 10 marathons, including Pikes Peak twice and Mt Evans with the other 7 on roads, including Boston, Western Hemisphere twice, Ave of the Giants Redwoods, White Rock, & Denver Marathon twice. It is hard to say which is more difficult as the degree of fatigue varies, but obviously the road marathons are faster and I recovered quicker than the Mt Races or hiking many 14ers over the years due to altitude and terrain.

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
quillansculpture #8926 11/03/10 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
When hiking Whitney with Gary, Bulldog34 . . . he said he sometimes feels it more than once at the early stages of a hike. Once again, it goes away for him (If I remember correctly.) And, it's always mental, not physical.


It's definitely mental for me Joe, but it's physically based - it's usually the result of the first lactic acid buildup in my legs. Whenever I get that that first hard burn, I instinctively want to stop and turn around. I never do, of course, but it's something I always have to fight through early on in a hard uphill hike. Once I've achieved an oxygen and acid balance I'll generally keep going till the cows come home.

My quitter tendencies here are the product of running the quarter-mile (440 yards/400 meters) in high school and college. That is the most intensely painful race in the track world because you're asking your body to run at 85% max speed for about 200 yards more than your legs think is reasonable. Lactic acid buildup is enormous the last half of this race (along with an intense oxygen debt) and it hurts like hell. Whenever I get that burn in my calves or quads, I flash back to all those 440s I ran - and all the pain that came with it - and I just want to say "screw it!"

I really hated the 440 due to all that misery. I much preferred the 100 and 220, but by the time I got to college I wasn't quite fast enough to play with the big boys in the pure speed events and I didn't have the endurance for the mid-distance 880. So I got pigeon-holed into the quarter-mile and hated every single race I ran, regardless of where I finished. In fact, the last race I ran before I hung up the spikes for good was against Edwin Moses in an open 400. He already owned a couple of Olympic golds at the time, but I was actually leading at 300 meters. In reality Edwin was just cruising, and about 80 meters later he was several steps ahead of me and pulling away. I decided then and there that I was wasting my time, and that it was time to find something I actually enjoyed doing.

Hiking is much more my speed - once I get past that initial burn . . .

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
CMC2 #8927 11/03/10 07:18 PM
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Mr. CMC2, I'd like you to meet Crazy Jack. Today you & CJ are going to do a Whitney Double. Meet you both at the WPS at noon for a beer.


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
wagga #8929 11/03/10 07:55 PM
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Bob Rockwell introduced me to Jack in August 2008 at the Portal. I learned he had lived in Colorado when he was an outstanding biker. Maybe years ago I could have handled a double, but not anymore at age 73 with bad knees. I haven't run, jogged or moved fast since 1985. And Bob R will tell you my beverage of choice is either iced tea or soft drink, don't like the taste of beer. Guess I wouldn't last long in Oz would I Wagga, although I have been there.

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
CMC2 #8931 11/03/10 08:02 PM
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If you have been to Cronulla we might have met.


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
CMC2 #8932 11/03/10 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: CMC2
my beverage of choice is either iced tea or soft drink, don't like the taste of beer.


Oh-so-glad to know that I am not the only one who has a lemonade(or otherwise) because I can not gag down a beer!

Regarding Marathons VS hiking: I believe that at least hiking is much kinder to the body than the pounding of long distance pavement running (having done both)


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
Bee #8933 11/03/10 08:23 PM
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Bee,
I'm with you...can't stand beer, can't stand the taste of alcohol in general (I do love a good bloody mary though).

and....I couldn't run a marathon, but i could summit whitney. (just to stay on topic.....).
td

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
tdtz #8934 11/03/10 08:57 PM
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The hitting the "wall" or bonking is definately physical even when it seems mental.When the glycogen reserves in the body are depleted and the carbohydrates loaded are depleted and there is no more food to replenish the caloric burn and the body can't breakdown fat or muscle tissue reserves then the body runs out of fuel and quits functioning.Heretofore referred to as hitting the wall or bonking.
"
Quote:
Marathoners used to call bonking "hitting the wall," but it's actually a bodily form of sedition. In some form or another, it becomes a collapse of the entire system: body and form, brains and soul. * Consider the muscle-glycogen bonk, where the brain works fine but the legs up and quit. Then there's the blood-glucose bonk, where the legs work fine but the brain up and quits. Let's not forget the everything bonk, a sorry stewpot of dehydration, training errors, gastric problems, and nutrition gaffes.

Last edited by Rod; 11/03/10 09:00 PM.
Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
Bee #8943 11/04/10 09:23 AM
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I've never liked the taste of any beer -- still don't.
Enjoy a good double-Bailey's though.

Never run a marathon, though I have run shorter "long" distances and a mini-tri. I've also dayhiked Whitney. Whitney seems easier to me, mostly mentally. Usually flat surface seemingly endless running provides little to distract from the rigors of the run, which makes it seem harder, whereas the myriad natural wonders and diversity of a trail such the MT or the MR make the long trek enjoyable, at least for me.

CaT


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
CaT #8944 11/04/10 09:31 AM
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So, the unofficial Tally is:

Mt Whitney.... 8
Marathon...... 3
Like Beer..... 3
Dislike Beer.. 6


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
quillansculpture #8946 11/04/10 12:20 PM
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Make that 4 for beer.

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
Bulldog34 #8947 11/04/10 12:37 PM
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add my vote for beer - total is 5

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
quillansculpture #8948 11/04/10 01:20 PM
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Like beer: six.


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Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
wagga #8950 11/04/10 01:43 PM
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OK, let's escalate: Which is harder -- the Pikes Peak Marathon or the MMWT? Let's assume running for both courses.

Re: Marathon vs Whitney?
AlanK #8951 11/04/10 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: AlanK
OK, let's escalate: Which is harder -- the Pikes Peak Marathon or the MMWT? Let's assume running for both courses.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

MMWT hands down...there ain't no souvenir shops on the top or roads to the top of Mecca West.

Then, again, that's just me talking!

Hmmmm...Pikes Peak Marathon...I would like to run that!


Have fun...


Journey well...
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