Mt Whitney Webcam
Mt Williamson Webcam
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 207 guests, and 16 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
#9397 12/05/10 12:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 583
AlanK Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 583
From the LA Times.
Quote:
For Boy Scouts, trails can lead to danger

In the last five years, 32 Scouts and Scout leaders have died in various outdoor activities. Adult leaders, often inexperienced, can miscalculate risks and difficulties.

By Ralph Vartabedian, Los Angeles Times

December 5, 2010

The Yosemite Falls Trail leads dramatically to the top of North America's highest waterfall. Park rangers and veteran hikers know it as strenuous and a potentially dangerous hike in the winter.

Its steep switchbacks rising 2,700 vertical feet were a big challenge for Luis Alberto Ramirez Jr., a 12-year-old from Modesto who had joined the Boy Scouts months earlier and was on his first big outing with his troop.

Until that day, Feb. 16, 2008, Luis had never set foot in the mountains.

The 11 boys and four adults started at 8:30 a.m. Just one mile from the trail head, most of the troop was already exhausted and decided to turn back.

The scoutmaster pressed ahead with five boys, including Luis. Three hours later the troop was waist-deep in snow. The boys were cold and their feet soaked. Luis was tired, his seventh-grade hiking partner said later.

The group turned back, and soon spread out along the trail, leaving some boys on their own. They began taking dangerous shortcuts between switchbacks. After stepping off the trail, Luis lost his footing and slid out of control over an edge. He plunged 300 feet to his death.

The account of the accident comes from a park investigation, which took statements from the scoutmaster and the other boys.

"They told me they were going to the forest," Marta Anguiano, Luis' mother, recalled in an interview.

"They never told me what they were doing was dangerous," said Anguiano, a field laborer in Modesto.

In an examination of law enforcement reports, lawsuits and news accounts, The Times identified 32 Scouts and Scout leaders who have died in the last five years in various outdoor activities. Investigations by rangers and sheriffs have documented deaths resulting from heatstroke, falls, lightning, drowning, electrocution and burns, among other causes.

In many cases, adult leaders appear to have miscalculated the abilities of individual boys to handle the risks and difficulties of outdoor activities, and failed to follow Scout rules and recommendations on adult supervision, safety equipment and trip planning.

Andrea Lankford, who was a district ranger in Yosemite in the mid-1990s and has worked at national parks across the country, said many adult Scout leaders "are not that physically fit themselves. They are not that knowledgeable. They are complacent. They are naive about the hazards. They bite off more than they can chew. As rangers, we would be extremely concerned. I have seen it time and time again with a gamut of consequences."

The Boy Scouts of America, the parent organization based in Irving, Texas, would not release its own records of the incidents, say how many fatal accidents it knows about or discuss the causes of specific accidents. But the group defended its general practices, saying safety is emphasized. After a rash of deaths in 2005, the Boy Scouts ratcheted up its safety program, including hiring a new safety director and imposing new fitness guidelines.

In the five years prior to 2005, The Times identified 16 fatalities in outdoor Scouting activity, based on news accounts and public records. Boy Scout spokesman Deron Smith said "the overall number of incidents has not increased and does not reflect a trend."

"Thousands of Scouts across the United States safely explore the outdoors every day," Smith said in a statement. "There are just too many variables to be able to predict how an accident might occur."

Paul Moore, the Scouting executive for the Los Angeles Boy Scouts council, said he believed the fatality rate during organized activities for the 1 million boys in Scouting is below the national average for boys going about their daily lives. But Moore also acknowledged that parents have an expectation that the organization knows what it is doing, and that fatal accidents are unacceptable.

No agency tracks outdoor deaths in all the state and federal mountains, forests, lakes and rivers, let alone the fatality rate for Boy Scouts compared with other visitors. The U.S. Interior Department reported 151 fatal accidents in national parks in 2008, including 49 boating and swimming deaths and 33 hiking deaths. There were about 275 million visitors to the parks that year.

Since its founding 100 years ago, the Boy Scouts of America has introduced millions of boys to the wilderness, giving them a unique opportunity to learn outdoor skills. In the process, the organization has promoted an agenda of honesty and good civic conduct. Currently, there are 1 million Boy Scouts, led by thousands of volunteer scoutmasters and assistants.

What concerns outdoor experts is the experience level of many of those volunteers. Local Scout leaders said the only requirement set by the national office for escorting a day hike, for example, is that volunteers take the youth protection program to prevent sexual abuse, and that they file proper tour permits, health forms and other documents.

"I wonder if these adults are qualified, if they are prepared," said Matt Sharper, the statewide search and rescue coordinator for the California Emergency Services Management Agency. "If you don't have the skills, you have a recipe for disaster. Your group is only as strong as your weakest member. You should never let the group separate. You should have a leader at the front and a leader at the back."

The national organization has issued ironclad orders in some cases, such as a ban on paintball play and extensive rules on water safety. But the organization's manual "The Guide to Safe Scouting" contains many nonbinding recommendations that give local councils wide discretion on safety issues. Adding even more rigid rules would increase bureaucracy and make activities even harder to organize, some parents say.

Some councils take the initiative to increase safety. In Orange County, Boy Scouts executive Jeffrie A. Hermann said his organization would "hound volunteers" until they took a number of optional courses that help prepare them to lead hiking and other outdoor activities. He credits Orange County's training program for a safety record untouched by a fatal accident for many years. In other cases, individual troops have created strict rules on physical fitness, equipment and training that exceed national guidelines.

Under Boy Scout rules, two adults are supposed to be present with boys. In the accident involving Luis Ramirez, Yosemite National Park investigators found the scoutmaster was alone in leading the five boys, including his own son, after the other parents turned back. The scoutmaster, who has been involved in Scouting for 36 years, said later that he did not regard the hike as risky or inappropriate for a beginning hiker, noting that he had taken his family on it in the past.

Lankford said even rangers would turn around before getting into waist-deep snow, unless they were carrying snowshoes.

The Scouting safety manual warns leaders to "conservatively" estimate the stamina of a hiking group and match outings to "fitness of unit members." Exhaustion can demoralize hikers and be the first step to a tragic consequence, rescue experts say.

Corey Buxton, a 17-year-old Scout from Las Vegas, disappeared while backpacking last July at Zion National Park. Corey was having a tough time and told an adult leader to leave him alone, according to a National Park Service incident report. The leader hiked 100 yards ahead, the report said; when he turned around, Corey was gone. His body was recovered a day later in thick brush about 225 feet from the trail. His death was blamed on hyperthermia, or unusually high body temperature.

Such mishaps frequently trigger costly public safety responses.

One of the biggest search-and-rescue operations in Southern California history occurred in 1991, when Boy Scout Jared Negrete, 12, became separated at the back of his troop on the strenuous Mt. San Gorgonio trail in the San Bernardino Mountains. Negrete's body was never found after a search that included 2,000 people and went on for 16 days. Forty-four people suffered injuries in the search.

News of the tragedy led Mike Leum to seek a career in mountain rescue, and today he is the reserve chief for mountain rescue at the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, where he preaches outdoor safety to Boy Scout troops. A search and rescue is conducted for lost Scouts at least once a year in the Angeles National Forest, Leum said. The Riverside County Sheriff's Department rescues lost Scouts two or three times each year, officials said.

"Just because you are in Scouting or are a Scout leader doesn't mean you know what you are doing," said Leum, a former Boy Scout. "If somebody calls themselves a leader, I hold them to a high standard."

Some parents think the organization should not depend on local councils and troops to comply with voluntary national safety recommendations.

One such recommendation is that Scouts wear helmets while sledding. But earlier this year on an outing with his troop, Ian Joshua Miller, 12, was allowed to slide down a Pennsylvania ski slope on a plastic dish without a helmet, recalled his father, Ron Miller. Ian flew backward head-first into a ski lift tower and was killed.

Miller is not suing the Scouts, but recently met with Richard Bourlon, a senior safety advisor at the Boy Scouts, to urge that the organization require helmets and ban nonsteerable sleds, such as plastic saucers. In an interview, Bourlon declined to discuss individual accidents but said the organization was always working to improve safety.

The federal government is active with Scouting groups, advising them on outdoor safety.

While the Boy Scout training program is good, it is no substitute for years and decades of experience by adult leaders, said Dean Ross, deputy chief for emergency operations at the National Park Service.

"Training doesn't develop competency," Ross said. "I am not saying they are incompetent, but to reach a level of competency requires not only training but experience."

ralph.vartabedian@latimes.com

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
AlanK #9415 12/06/10 08:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 202
G
Woodsy Guy
Offline
Woodsy Guy
G
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 202
That's a really interesting article. Somebody really should compare those stats to the general population. That many fatalities (and what must also be a higher injury rate behind it) seems really high.

For a few years, I had thought boy scouts were getting better (compared to the 70s & 80s). They had better leadership and usually had taken training hikes in preparation for their multi-day Sierra hikes. The last 2 years, though, I've run into a lot of problems with groups. It's definitely poor leadership.

And, I shouldn't be so naive I guess, but what really pisses me off about these disorganized scout groups I run into is how easily and casually they lie to me about whatever it is I'm contacting them on (group size, permit etc). I mean, if scouts are going to be so self-righteous as to ban gays and non-believers from their lofty moral height, then the least they should do is live by their principals, but they absolutely don't. One day, I had the leaders of 4 seperate groups lie to me. They all got citations, of course, but I was really annoyed with scouting that day.

Happy to see someone take kids out but they really need to work on their leadership.

George


None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
George #9420 12/06/10 09:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
D
DUG Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
In my eight years as a registered leader in Scouts (ever since my son joined in 1st grade) I have seen a lot of leaders - good, bad, studs, out of shape and everything in between.

Some units rarely if ever get into the backcountry (or frontcountry) and some seem to spend all their time there.

There are leaders who will push the envelope, who don't understand the risks and there are afraid to even try.

Mostly it's an outstanding group of volunteer leaders (there are professional, paid scouts, but very few) who want to help mold young men and women (Venture Scouts include young ladies) into productive members of their communities.

I wouldn't know how to figure out what BSA's accident rate is compared to the GP. In my small circle we are far better. I'm sure others are far worse. Bottom line, the leaders are out there spending their time and money trying to help kids.

I've have spent thousands of dollars in cash and lost vacation days to take our boys camping, hiking, etc. I have taken members of our group to several places in and around the Whitney Portal (some to the summit) and done so safely. But I'm just one guy - not everyone has the same training and thought process. BSA does offer plenty of training, but it's up to the leaders (often on their own dime) to get it.

A few bad apples (liars, etc) is NOT a reflection on BSA as a whole. For those who have gotten a bad taste of scouts due to a bad leader encounter, there are many, many others who got a postive impression of scouting because of just my group - multiple that by all the good deeds and I'm guessing (guessing because I have no cold, hard facts) that more people have been touched positively bu scouts than negatively.

I'll be leading a group of new kids on a ten mile hike this weekend. I won't be sitting back hoping someone else does it, I'll be out there. I wish more people could say they were doing the same thing............................DUG

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9423 12/06/10 11:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 742
K
Ken Offline
Offline
K
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 742
"A few bad apples (liars, etc) is NOT a reflection on BSA as a whole."

Uhhh....actually, it absolutely IS! These are the people that BSA tolerates, that they consider acceptable as participants, as leaders of youth. And the result is kids dying. It is on BSA's shoulders, and the sooner they accept that, the sooner that they will be in a position to fix the problem. Otherwise, it will never be fixed.

Look at the article's mention of what they did in Orange Co. They did something different, and they got a different result.

BSA would do well to adopt a model similar to what the Sierra Club does in LA (although their national model is very lacking, and produces some pretty embarrassing results, too).

At least the SC has an aggressive program of accumulating and evaluating accidents regionally and nationally. BSA needs to do that. They have an obligation to kids.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9425 12/06/10 11:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
S
Offline
S
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
I have been fairly quiet on the boards over this last year or so (wow... it's been awhile).. however, I feel compelled to speak in regards to this.

Alan... Thank you for posting that article... it's very interesting and something that I will be sharing with my Leaders and Boys.

DUG... you're very right when you say that a few bad apples is NOT a reflection on BSA as a whole. Unfortunatly we all know that those bad apples are often the ones who catch the national media's attention and set the reputation for BSA. For instance when those boys were killed in that tornado a couple of years ago... it was the fact that there was a catastrophic weather event resulting in the tragic death of young men. What wasn't shared was the fact that the surviving Scouts used their Scout gained knowledge and training to be first responders and render first aide and stabilize the situation until medical assistance could arrive... not only to their fellow injured scouts, but to those "civilian" people who were camped nearby. What also didn't get mentioned was that, because of that event, BSA changed part of their training requirements to include a "Hazardous Weather" training mandatory for at least one adult on any outting.

ALL... As unfortunate events happen, BSA is constantly shifting, adjusting, and revamping their training requirements for outdoor activities. For instance, just this year the training required to be a leader on High Adventure activities has been expanded to include a Red Cross/BSA approved Wilderness Survival training, with wilderness 1st Aide and CPR required. If you don't have that training.... your tour permit (permission slip from BSA) doesn't get approved. Do people misrepresent themselves on their tour permit applications... I'm sure they do... does BSA come down on them and deny their tour permits? I'm postive they do.. it's happened to me before (not because I misrepresented myself, but because something I had on the permit didn't abide by the rules). Do some people slip through the system and endanger not only themselves, but their Scouts? Sadly... yes.

I am currently planning my Troops Spring Break trip for April. We will be going to the Grand Canyon and (permits and the Good Lord willing) be spending two nights in camping areas at the bottom of the canyon. As I started my research process to see exactly what needed done in order to get us where we wanted to be, first I read the information on the NPS website for Grand Canyon... then I emailed one of the back country rangers and established a discussion with her regarding the parks rules and regulations. One of the things that struck me the most was that when I identified myself as a Scout leader she was very clear that the established guidelines regarding group size and camping permits were non-negotiable.. for anyone... even for Scouts... and that if I, like Scout groups in the past, misrepresented myself or my Troop in our intentions or actions that there were serious legal ramifications and fines that could and would be incurred by us.

As part of the "uptraining" for my Scouts AND Leaders before Grand Canyon there will be REQUIRED "pre-hikes" and camping trips of increasing difficulty and endurance in order to ensure that any Scout or Leader going with me is capable of the physical and emotional demands that a hike in the Grand Cayon will require of them. If they are not up to par for the down canyon trip there will be alternate activities on the RIM for them to enjoy with leadership enough to supervise. Also as part of our training there will be 15 minute sessions during each of our weekly Troop meetings between now and April where basic knowledge items are introduced, reviewed, tested, and reviewed again. Clothing, weather, GPS, map & compass, foot care.... etc, etc, etc... I have a list of about 30 topics that the boys and leaders will be discussing, reviewing and getting ingrained into their minds before we leave for this trip.

"Youth Protection Guidelines" require 2 adults per group (as referenced in that article)... I require 4 adults per group.. that means if my Troop is going to have 2 groups (one for the canyon and one for the rim) we will have 8 adults on the trip with us. I have cancelled trips in the past where we have not had the leadership necessary... it makes my boys mad, but better safe then sorry.

Have you ever seen the episode of "I Shouldn't Be Alive" where the leader took his older Scouts down into the Grand Canyon and so many of them ended up passing away? That will be used as a training video... and then we will have a discussion as to what went wrong and why.

These steps that I am taking to get ready for the Grand Canyon are the same as I would take to get MY boys ready for any trip that we take. Some things might be slightly adjusted in order to accomodate different circumstances... but through all of it I keep one thing in mind... those horrible, tragic, fatal events are not going to happen on MY watch...

I think part of the problem, other then lack of training, discipline and knowledge, is that once BSA approves the tour permit, some leaders tend to feel as if that means that BSA is taking the responsibility for that trip, trek, whatever... off their shoulders. I view it as just the opposite... when Council or National sends me a confirmed, approved tour permit.... that means that I am the final party responsible for ANYTHING that happens on that trip... and I take that seriously.



-steps off soapbox- Ok... so that went a little further then I intended it to... but I think the point is there somewhere.... BSA, like any organization, has a couple of bad apples floating around in the barrel... but the rest of us good apples do our best to overcome the shadow cast by the bad apples and make BSA the organization the everyone expects us to be....

Last edited by SoCalGirl; 12/06/10 11:47 AM.
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
AlanK #9426 12/06/10 01:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 558
Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 558
Everyone I ever talk to from volunteer organizations such as the PCTA or SCA or just individuals that have personal experience all tell me the same thing "they hate the Boy Scouts". I cannot recall a single time someone has expressed a positive attitude towards them and it's always the same theme "they have no regard for wilderness regulations or etiquette" "they engage in very dangerous and mischievous behavior" and "the leaders are idiots".

Things range from the entire troop having their tents set up literally two feet from a lake in a row, kids doing trail work wildly swinging tools over their head with others right next to them and the troop leaders giving every kid an axe and just saying "go have fun".

My dad always laughs at how his troop leaders would pack in tons of beer and get drunk every night.

I personally was never in the Boy Scouts and have not had a chance to work with them personally on trail projects so i'd rather have some personal experience with them before I form my own biased opinion but as I said I have not heard anything good yet...

Last edited by RoguePhotonic; 12/06/10 01:08 PM.
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
RoguePhotonic #9427 12/06/10 01:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
S
Offline
S
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
Everyone I ever talk to from volunteer organizations such as the PCTA or SCA or just individuals that have personal experience all tell me the same thing "they hate the Boy Scouts". I cannot recall a single time someone has expressed a positive attitude towards them and it's always the same theme "they have no regard for wilderness regulations or etiquette" "they engage in very dangerous and mischievous behavior" and "the leaders are idiots".

Things range from the entire troop having their tents set up literally two feet from a lake in a row, kids doing trail work wildly swinging tools over their head with others right next to them and the troop leaders giving every kid an axe and just saying "go have fun".

My dad always laughs at how his troop leaders would pack in tons of beer and get drunk every night.



We have, in the past, not only asked Leaders to leave our troop for such idiotic, rule breaking, dangerous behavior... but have asked them to leave our District and Council.... not only is behavior such as this unacceptable for an adult who is supposed to be the role model for our future generation of leadership... it's flat out reprehensible...

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Ken #9429 12/06/10 03:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
D
DUG Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
Ken - your approach could be applied to ANY organization then.

If the Whitney Zone has a troll it reflects badly on the whole board huh? Must be a leadership issue.

Muslims ALL bad? Catholics?

A hiker ditches a wag bag then ALL hikers are bad?
A soldiers screws up so the whole military is AFU? I'm proud to serve scouting because I'm making a difference. If you want to think less of me - that's your call shipmate...........DUG

A

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Ken #9431 12/06/10 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
S
Offline
S
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 225
Originally Posted By: Ken
"A few bad apples (liars, etc) is NOT a reflection on BSA as a whole."

Uhhh....actually, it absolutely IS! These are the people that BSA tolerates, that they consider acceptable as participants, as leaders of youth. And the result is kids dying. It is on BSA's shoulders, and the sooner they accept that, the sooner that they will be in a position to fix the problem. Otherwise, it will never be fixed.


Ken... I realize that you posted this while I was typing up my post... but please see the area in my post where spoke to this. BSA does have a culture of changing their methods, rules and regulations when an accident happens that could have been prevented.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9432 12/06/10 03:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
D
DUG Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
RP - they ALL tell you they hate scouts? Are you trying to tell me that 100 percent of those you have disussed this with has told you they HATE scouts?

You know what, never mind.

I won't be baited into a pig wrasslin match. I don't want to get my scout uni muddy.

I am just as proud of it as I am my Navy uniform because I'm making a difference while others sit on their hands and complain.

Doug - proud member of Troop 332.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9433 12/06/10 04:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 695
CaT Offline
Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 695
As one who has never been involved in scouting, and so has no axe to grind (nor interest in grinding one) either way, perhaps you will allow me to be a brief voice of reason here before moving on with this dialog.

DUG - It sounds like you need to introduce to RP some of the folks you know who have some positive scouting stories to tell so his opinion can be more fully balanced between those he's met so far and those he has yet to meet. wink

Ken - Perhaps scouting is going through a particularly soul-searching or rebuilding time at the moment compared to past decades; but I doubt your words were meant to brand the entire organization (and by that, I don't mean just its administration) as corrupt or without merit.


In general, for any organization -- and that includes us here at WZ -- each individual is the "face" of the organization they represent (whether knowingly or not). This is why college football athletes sometimes get booted off the team (or even out of school) for doing things that reflect badly on the school. It's also why we remove offensive posts on the rare occasion they get posted here, so that we also put on a good "face" in representing our Whitney family to the outside world and to newcomers. It's a reputation we've worked to achieve and continue to work at maintaining. But I digress.... whistle

So like any other organization, I'm sure BSA has those in its ranks who, for whatever reason, aren't putting on a very good "face" for BSA and are thus, unfortunately, making a bad name for BSA when that happens. However, I don't doubt that it's equally true that there are those in that organization who go out of their way to represent it honorably and responsibly in every way possible. I would guess that DUG and SoCalGirl are two such people. In a diverse group such as ours, I'll bet there are others. No doubt they can both tell us stories from either side of the good face/bad face equation.

In the long run, the greater organization at the national level will probably prosper (or not) depending on how they handle those who don't represent them well. Not being in scouting myself, I can only surmise from what I've heard here that it sounds like there might be some "squeaks" that need "oiling" even though, at the same time, things are running just fine elsewhere in the organization.

Just my observations.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
AlanK #9436 12/06/10 05:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: AlanK
"Training doesn't develop competency," Ross said. "I am not saying they are incompetent, but to reach a level of competency requires not only training but experience."


To me, that final line in the article sums up the whole problem. There are too few backcountry-experienced troop leaders in scouting, and that's a recipe for disaster at times. It's been a lotta years since I was a Scout, but I recall that all of our adult leaders were parents of boys in the troop. If that's still the case today then it's no wonder that these situations arise from bad judgment in the field, lack of proper preparation, poor planning, or all three. Being a kid's parent carries zero qualifications in taking a group of kids on an adventure in dangerous territory or conditions. A degree of required training improves things somewhat, but I suspect that varies greatly from adult to adult.

For every truly experienced troop leader out there who knows what they're doing in the backcountry - especially with young kids - there are other adult leaders whose skills are overmatched by their own backyard, but would never admit it, and present themselves to their troop as a reincarnated Grizzly Adams (I'm thinking here of a specific blowhard neighbor who is bound to get himself, and possibly some of his troop, killed one day with his testosterone-fueled bravado).

I thank God there are committed and experienced adults like Doug and Chris that volunteer their time and abilities to bring the wonders of the backcountry to our kids through BSA, perpetuating that fascination for the next generation. Thank you both. We need many more like them in an organization that is almost totally dependent on volunteers but has no real vetting capability for solid skills. People like - well, actually . . . like most of us on these boards. Definitely food for thought.

Let's face it - if Scouting (and all of it's variations) doesn't get these kids outdoors, who will?

Last edited by Bulldog34; 12/07/10 11:16 AM. Reason: Sorry Chris! Brain freeze! I had just responded to BiletChick a moment earlier and she was still in my mind.
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
CaT #9437 12/06/10 06:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 6
H
Offline
H
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 6
I was an assistant Scoutmaster for 16 years.

I learned tons from my highly experienced Head Scoutmaster about winter camping in the Virginia Mts and expanded that to keep myself alive at over 20,000 ft several times.

That said...I learned this from him, not Scouts. I was fortunate to learn under him rather than some fat guy who takes his Troop to sleep in the gym somewhere and calls that camping! Many, many troops have no real outdoor experience for their kids.

My official scoutmaster training (1994) was more concerned with drug abuse (by kids) and sexual abuse(by leaders) than anything else. I was taught absolutely zero about the outdoors from my scoutmaster training classes. The organization is volunteer and as such has limitations.

To upgrade the average male (and now female) leader to be proficient in First Aid, Orienteering, Weather Forecasting, Rock climbing, etc, etc, and especially "Outdoor Common Sense" cannot be done to the level of Navy Seals.

From a statistical standpoint, the number of deaths in the article must be seen in light of the number of person/days in the woods/fields/hills to make a comparison to non-scout statistics.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Bulldog34 #9438 12/06/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 595
Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 595
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
...Let's face it - if Scouting (and all of it's variations) doesn't get these kids outdoors, who will?


Hopefully their parents -

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
KevinR #9439 12/06/10 06:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,256
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: KevinR
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
...Let's face it - if Scouting (and all of it's variations) doesn't get these kids outdoors, who will?


Hopefully their parents -


We're doomed.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
AlanK #9440 12/06/10 08:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 558
Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 558
Quote:
RP - they ALL tell you they hate scouts? Are you trying to tell me that 100 percent of those you have disussed this with has told you they HATE scouts?


Actually yes. Hate is a strong word perhaps too much so as not all the people I have talked to said they "hate" the scouts although many did but never have I talked to anyone who had anything positive to say.

I think sometimes we have to accept that we can't use the term "a few bad apples" in an organization that is better defended by saying there are "a few good apples". I don't mean to apply this to the scouts because it would be too large of a generalization of an organization I don't know all that much about but since trying to apply it in context of other examples I think it's worth noting.

No need to get so upset either. I value your inputs and experiences to give a better balance for what I have heard.

Quote:
DUG - It sounds like you need to introduce to RP some of the folks you know who have some positive scouting stories to tell so his opinion can be more fully balanced between those he's met so far and those he has yet to meet.


Exactly, wrote that above then read this.

Actually though now that I think about it the only person I have talked to that didn't say anything bad about the scouts is my dad. He will tell story after story of like I said the leaders getting drunk and driving crazy and kids passed out on the trail and on and on but he loved it all and stayed in and became an Eagle Scout.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9444 12/07/10 07:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 648
Likes: 52
Offline
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 648
Likes: 52
Despite the "be prepared" motto, some of the most unprepared clowns I've ever seen in the wilderness were Scouts. Too many Scout Leaders are fat dads who haven't picked up a pack or hiked a trail since they were Scouts.

DUG's defense of Scouting points out that we shouldn't hate all Muslims, Catholics, or soldiers just because a few bad apples screw up. However, Scouts won't allow atheists to participate. It's hard for me to endorse a group whose lofty standards include bigotry against me.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
bobpickering #9445 12/07/10 09:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
D
DUG Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 372
I see no reason for me to hang around any longer to be insulted by the haters and the misinformed. I could argue point by point for years, but really, the people dogging on the scouts just aren't worth it.

Since this is a Whitney board, I will point out that a majority of those unprepared ass clowns on the trail and headed to the peak ARE NOT scouts. A majority of the dumbshits who died doing something stupid in the back country are not scouts.

A mojority of those ticketed by George are not scouts. Again, I could go on and on, but the people I'm trying to sell my point to just aren't worth my time.

My "day job" of nearly 26 years has helped ensure you have the freedom to insult me and BSA, but it doesn't mean I need to stay here and listen to it.

I would also hope that those talking the loudest aren't suffering from a case of "keyboard commando". Please feel free to share your same thoughts when you see me on the summit, on the trail or having a burger at the store. My feeling is you won't.

No need to reply.

ASCS (AW)Douglas Ames
Installs LCPO/Team Lead

Troop 332 Outdoor Chair

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9447 12/07/10 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 511
T
Offline
T
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 511
I would never have guessed that the BSA would be such a controversial topic.

I am agnostic, but I wanted my son to join the scouts. Unfortunately, he wasn't interested. I have no problem with an organization defining membership based on whatever criteria they choose. If the faith thing bothers someone...why not start Secular Scouts of America?

As someone who does a lot of volunteering in my son's activities (school and little league), I don't like being painted by the same brush as some of the lesser qualified or more obnoxious volunteers in the same organizations. And trust me, we do get some obnoxious and ill qualified coaches volunteering. But one of the key things is that volunteers are at least giving of themselves to help others.

It sounds like maybe the BSA needs to have a more uniform backcountry training program. But I find it hard to vilify an organization that has the following goals (from wikipedia):

"The BSA goal is to train youth in responsible citizenship, character development, and self-reliance through participation in a wide range of outdoor activities, educational programs, and, at older age levels, career-oriented programs in partnership with community organizations. For younger members, the Scout method is part of the program to inculcate typical Scouting values such as trustworthiness, good citizenship, and outdoors skills, through a variety of activities such as camping, aquatics, and hiking"

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9448 12/07/10 10:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,507
Likes: 103
S
Offline
S
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,507
Likes: 103
DUG, Nobody is aiming their complaints at you at all! Please don't take those complaints personally!!!

Boy scouts has been a lightning rod because they have taken on the goal of providing wholesome life-building experiences and training for boys and girls during their most important growing years. Since BSA is involved with such an influential role, the organization and their policies become targets of organizations and people from all political and religious angles.

And they become a lightning rod for attention and negative publicity when things go awry. You and Chris have both seen examples of adults who were turned away due to their being inadequately prepared to lead scouts. Apparently and unfortunately, other groups within the organization have been more lax with their standards and training.

And it just happened that in this thread, a number of people have shared their less than positive experiences regarding the organization. I don't think anyone here would have ANY reason to say anything negative about you or the fine scout group you lead. From everything I've read about your trips, both from the planning and the actual trip, your group should be held up as a prime example of how every scout troupe should operate. My son was in scouting, and they NEVER went on backpacking trips (you can picture the condition of the leaders.)

And with all the negative publicity, I have to tell about my experience. Hiking over Silver Pass to Blainey Hot Springs (across the San Joaquin river from Muir Trail Ranch), I encountered about 10 teenage boys relaxing in and around the hot springs. They were the best behaved group of teenage boys I have EVER encountered -- clean language, friendly and respectful of each other and everyone else. So I had to inquire what group they were. It was a scouting group from So California!

It could very well have been your group.

So there are some really fantastic groups in the BSA. And I hope you will continue to participate here with your planning and reporting on your group's activities. It would be good if all scouting groups participated in planning -- we could help educate and inform those less prepared.

Everyone here appreciates what you do. Please keep it up.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4
(Release build 20200307)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.33 Page Time: 0.053s Queries: 55 (0.044s) Memory: 0.7120 MB (Peak: 0.8930 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 14:31:14 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS