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#9449 - 12/07/10 09:37 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Steve C]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
Originally Posted By: DUG
No need to reply.

Of course, you know we will.

I would echo Steve's sentiments completely. I haven't seen anything here that is against you or your scouting groups personally; and your most recent post, which seemed to overlook some of the more positive comments in this thread, really took me by surprise. But rather than run off, why not stick around and continue to promote the good stories being told about BSA, among other things, so the rest of us can benefit from your experiences. Isn't that what this MB is about? Isn't that what scouting is about -- teaching others from your experience and by your example? Sadly, not all of us live close enough to Whitney in order to take you up on your challenge of talking to you on the trail, at the Portal, etc. So until that changes, this MB is our window into each others' worlds. I hope you don't close yours merely over one thread.

CaT
_________________________
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

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#9450 - 12/07/10 09:55 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: CaT]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
CaT, you wrote:
"Ken - Perhaps scouting is going through a particularly soul-searching or rebuilding time at the moment compared to past decades; but I doubt your words were meant to brand the entire organization (and by that, I don't mean just its administration) as corrupt or without merit."

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! I actually think well of scouting, in spite of their various faults, and I think they do a lot of good. You've obviously gotten a sense of me by my writing, and I thank you for your giving me the latitute.

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#9452 - 12/07/10 10:48 AM Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: DUG]
Burchey
Unregistered


Just to make sure I'm not confused, did DUG leave the board completely because of this topic?

If not, skip to part B:
If so...

I may be wrong, but I've noticed a negative correlation between those who hang out on message boards and thickness of skin. Leave the board because a few people don't like the scouts or make points(valid or not) that disagree or possibly go against something you happen to do or agree with? When did we become such wimps? Also, it seems like it doesn't take much to lock a thread, which also points to the supercharged PC wimpy atmosphere these days.

Part B:
I was in the scouts until age 14, my younger brother got his Eagle. I saw a huge range of leaders in our troop alone: from rugged outdoorsman to this perverted guy named Herb who frequented nudist colonies. I left my troop and scouts when I realized it was a dumping ground for the socially retarded. We had guys who crapped their pants at age 14, a kid with webbed fingers and toes, and a myriad of others that the general public might consider "undesirable". I'm from Ohio - so things might be differenct out here, but I doubt it. Although I was lucky enough to be in a troop that took a great trip once a month or so (whitewater rafting, backpacking trips, etc), I decided my time was better spent elsewhere - for many reasons.

If I had to bet, I would guess the majority of folks that take issue with the Scouts for any reason do so because of an underlying feeling of rejection - i.e. they are gay or athiest or whatever it is the Scouts are claiming to reject. Of course, they won't admit it, but it rings true if you consider the source of many of these arguements. This really has nothing to do with kids dying on the trail, it's just another jumping off point for arguing about the boyscouts...reminds me of how everything goes to illegal immigration on Signonsandiego comment sections, hilarious.

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#9453 - 12/07/10 11:18 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Steve C]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
FWIW, I posted the article because it was interesting. It got more reaction than I might have anticipated.

My $0.02 worth: My son was in Cub Scouts but bailed out before hitting the Boy Scouts because he wanted to be outdoors all the time and our local troop was not so inclined. We ended up hitting the trails and having many great adventures together -- and still do on occasion (he's 21 and not as available as he once was). In our many outings, we ran into scouts on many occasions. Our impressions were generally positive. We did tend to think that the average troop was over-prepared (huge packs, etc.). But, it you are going to err, better too much than not enough!

As for DUG et al. -- you are doing a great thing!

That said, there is obviously room for criticism in some cases. One should be careful of judging by newspaper articles, but it seems clear enough that the Yosemite incident in the article I posted should never have happened.

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#9454 - 12/07/10 12:56 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
Originally Posted By: Ken
You've obviously gotten a sense of me by my writing, and I thank you for your giving me the latitude.

Thanks. I try. I feel like my niche on this MB is to try and help people do that with each other here.

Originally Posted By: Burchey
Just to make sure I'm not confused, did DUG leave the board completely because of this topic?

Hopefully not. It would be a real loss to all of us. And DUG, if you're reading all this (which I hope you are), I think you left the conversation prematurely. I thought it would be worth reprinting a line from Ken's most recent post: "I actually think well of scouting, in spite of their various faults, and I think they do a lot of good."

CaT
_________________________
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

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#9456 - 12/07/10 01:24 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: ]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Burchey said:

"If I had to bet, I would guess the majority of folks that take issue with the Scouts for any reason do so because of an underlying feeling of rejection - i.e. they are gay or athiest or whatever it is the Scouts are claiming to reject. Of course, they won't admit it, but it rings true if you consider the source of many of these arguements."

Interesting perspective. I'm not clear as to "the source" to which you are referring?

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#9458 - 12/07/10 01:34 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
Burchey
Unregistered


Hey Ken. By source, I mean the person bagging on the Scouts. Perhaps they have a gay brother, or are an athiest themselves, etc. You'll find most folks don't argue without bias, and often that bias will cloud judgment and skew perspective. It's impossible to remove our personal experiences/standing from our ability to analyze a situation, but a wise person will consider all perspectives, and then try to judge accordingly. Easier said than done.

example: A person might be quick to criticize a bill from the Oval Office just based on the person sending it, not the specifics of the bill

Originally Posted By: Ken
Burchey said:

"If I had to bet, I would guess the majority of folks that take issue with the Scouts for any reason do so because of an underlying feeling of rejection - i.e. they are gay or athiest or whatever it is the Scouts are claiming to reject. Of course, they won't admit it, but it rings true if you consider the source of many of these arguements."

Interesting perspective. I'm not clear as to "the source" to which you are referring?

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#9459 - 12/07/10 01:49 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: ]
MTN Offline


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Alta Loma, CA
Over the past year my son's Boy Scout troop has done the following terrible things:

Painted the High School Baseball Bleachers
Built a Cement walkway at the elementary school.
Built 18 4'x8' gardening boxes at another elementary school.
Painted an iron fence at the local park.
volunteered at the homeless shelter.

A 4 day trip to the Sierras.
slept in Snow Caves that they built.
and Several hikes.

Most of the Dads would not have their kids involved in these activities without the Boy Scouts.

Sorry but, this is something I want my son involved in.

I am sorry to hear of the accident.

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#9460 - 12/07/10 01:55 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: DUG]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: DUG
Ken - your approach could be applied to ANY organization then.

If the Whitney Zone has a troll it reflects badly on the whole board huh? Must be a leadership issue.

Muslims ALL bad? Catholics?

A hiker ditches a wag bag then ALL hikers are bad?
A soldiers screws up so the whole military is AFU? I'm proud to serve scouting because I'm making a difference. If you want to think less of me - that's your call shipmate...........DUG

A


I wanted to respond to DUG's post, above, not as a debate point, but to contrast what I'm trying to say, with what he took from what I'd said.

First, his point about any organization: I agree.
Second, I also agree. We only have to think back to how bad the WPS board used to be, before it was actively moderated. That was an issue of moderation, and what was acceptable.
Third, Muslims and Catholics who are not acting as part of an organization, no.
But part of an organization, yes, they reflect on that organization, as the Catholic Church is finding.
Fourth, "a hiker" is not part of an organization.
Fifth, "a soldier" IS part of an organization. if they screw up, and are not held accountable, YES. If multiple soldiers screw up, indicating poor training, YES.

I greatly respect the military. The military academies operate according to an honor code: "I will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those that do"

The BSA TRY to take care of the first half, but I think they fall down a bit on the second.

When bad things happen, and the response, AS AN ORGANIZATION, is, well, that's just the way it is......that's not good. There are too many of us who work in too many fields that constantly work towards trying to achieving perfection, knowing that we never will.

I am simply disappointed by the BSA response. I would expect every leader in the movement to be outraged, not by outside criticism of the BSA, but by the needless death of children. What the hell is the priority? How about a grass-roots initiative by the leaders who know what they are doing, to eliminate all avoidable deaths. I am reminded of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative's motto:

EVERY * LAST * CHILD

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#9461 - 12/07/10 02:39 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: ]
AlanK Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 583
Loc: Glendale, CA
Originally Posted By: Burchey
Hey Ken. By source, I mean the person bagging on the Scouts. Perhaps they have a gay brother, or are an athiest themselves, etc. You'll find most folks don't argue without bias, and often that bias will cloud judgment and skew perspective. It's impossible to remove our personal experiences/standing from our ability to analyze a situation, but a wise person will consider all perspectives, and then try to judge accordingly. Easier said than done.

example: A person might be quick to criticize a bill from the Oval Office just based on the person sending it, not the specifics of the bill

I do not disagree with these statements. On the other hand, I get irritated when people assume that they know the motives of someone making a statement based on the content of the statement. It is better to try to discuss the subject rather than being lazy and judging the source in the absence of knowledge of the source.

In the case of the Boy Scouts, the organization has a right to discriminate in various ways because it is private. On the other hand, people who do not like the discrimination have every right to object to it. It does not matter if they are actually victims of discrimination, have a brother who is, etc.

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#9463 - 12/07/10 03:18 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: AlanK]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
I'm not sure why DUG felt so threatened when we are just sharing our opinions and experiences. I was just sharing what I have heard and my experiences have always been positive as I have had nice chats with boyscout troops on the trail many times.

My only opinion that has now gone south is if it's true that the Boy Scouts will not allow an Atheist in the group. To me that is highly offensive, what exactly does any religion or lack of have to do with the values and activities that they promote? Infact that very idea is anti first amendment and down right unamerican.

That aside sometimes people just have bad experiences. I talked to this guy that absolutely hates Rangers and has one horror story after another such as them abandoning him in the back country while he had a broken leg being told to hike out and then once he managed the Rangers at the parking area refused to give him a ride to the hospital. But for myself I have had almost all good experiences with them so you never know.
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FlickR

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#9464 - 12/07/10 03:35 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Bee Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1261
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I'm not sure why DUG felt so threatened when we are just sharing our opinions and experiences.


When confronted with the steady stream of negative responses, it is not hard to feel defensive about something one believes in, supports, and whitnesses the positive results of. It is just human nature. I say this on purely generic terms, meaning that this would provoke the same response by a Marine if the Corps was "under fire", a congregant, a little league coach -- a FAN (have you ever seen a fan defend his team?)

Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic
I was just sharing what I have heard and my experiences have always been positive as I have had nice chats with boyscout troops on the trail many times.


Well, ummm, that is nice to hear, but it is after-the-fact, so hopefully, DUG has not wandered too far away to read it.

Originally Posted By: Burchey
This really has nothing to do with kids dying on the trail, it's just another jumping off point for arguing about the boyscouts...reminds me of how everything goes to illegal immigration on Signonsandiego comment sections, hilarious.


Yessir, I would say that accurately sums it up.


B
_________________________
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

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#9466 - 12/07/10 04:09 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: RoguePhotonic]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: RoguePhotonic

My only opinion that has now gone south is if it's true that the Boy Scouts will not allow an Atheist in the group. To me that is highly offensive, what exactly does any religion or lack of have to do with the values and activities that they promote? Infact that very idea is anti first amendment and down right unamerican.


http://hubpages.com/hub/Religion-and-Scouting-Do-They-Have-to-Go-Together
or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting

Boy Scouts of America

The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) in the United States takes a hard-line position, excluding atheists and agnostics.[10] The BSA has come under strong criticism over the past years due to their religious policy and stance against agnostics and atheists:


"Declaration of Religious Principle. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, 'On my honour I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.' The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of his favours and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."[10]

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#9467 - 12/07/10 04:45 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
DUG Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 367
Loc: Wildomar
Let's just clear a few thngs up here, shall we?

I am NOT "running away" from this BSA bashing board. I am choosing where I spend my time. I have that right don't I? I'm sure that any one of you would leave some place that did not support what you beleived in.

I am NOT being a "wimp" about it. I strongly disagree with almost every part of this worthless thread so I am deciding to limit my replies and possibly my participation on this BSA bashing board.

I damn sure do NOT feel "threatened". At least not by any of the posts or posters here.

I would encourage those who post to only write what they would be willing to say face to face. You'll come off a lot less keyboard commando that way.

The original post was about the tragic deaths of unprepared scouts. Now it's evolved into a BSA bash fest because they won't accept atheists or gays. Here's a newsflash - your AMERICAN military refuses to openly accept gays, but no one wants to stand up and bash the military that is at war.

George has had bad run ins with lying scouts. I have had run ins with worthless, overbearing rangers, but that does NOT in any way reflect poorly on George. I know there are crap rangers out there and I know there are many more good ones. Even some heroic and great ones.

RP says EVERYONE he has ever talked to about Scouts say they HATE them. Um, maybe you should scroll up a few posts - I never said I hate them and you're talking to me. When people start using words like ALL and everyone when it's obvious that's not the case they lose credibility.

I stand firm that I don't want to argue point by point with the BSA bashers here. Not worth my time. I'm not a wimp, I'm not running away and no one here makes me feel threatened. If I take my ball and go elsewhere it's simply because I want to hang out where people don't trash talk what I beleive in.

I'm not some Whitney wanna be who posts and posts and never does anything. 18 summits is more than some people here I would guess. My main trail summit this year I put a Boy Scout, a Venture Scout and two leaders on top and did it SAFELY.

I feel bad when other leaders can't get the job done safely, but even paid guide services get people killed with their screw ups.

If you have first hand knowledge of a screwed up leader - post it up. Don't attack the entire organization because of a few bad apples. BSA is doing a tremendous amount of good in the local communities. Outdoor activities are only 1/4 of what my unit does.

If you want to keep bashing - go for it. I helped earn your freedom to do that. Just don't expect me to stand here getting pissed on while you tell me it's raining.

If you have a comment meant just for me - take it to PM or hook up with me at the WPS for a burger. There won't be any wimp talk there.

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#9468 - 12/07/10 04:52 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: AlanK]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Interesting an educational for sure. Changes my whole out look on the Boy Scouts, not in a negative way but I now look at it more like a religious group which I like because then I don't hold the first amendment against them like I said.
_________________________
FlickR

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#9469 - 12/07/10 05:01 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: AlanK]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Quote:
I would encourage those who post to only write what they would be willing to say face to face. You'll come off a lot less keyboard commando that way.


I certainly don't communicate anything on a forum I wouldn't say face to face.

Quote:
your AMERICAN military refuses to openly accept gays, but no one wants to stand up and bash the military that is at war.


I certainly bash the military for anything it engages in that is illegal, immoral or I find offensive. War time is irrelevant in the matter.

Quote:
RP says EVERYONE he has ever talked to about Scouts say they HATE them. Um, maybe you should scroll up a few posts - I never said I hate them and you're talking to me. When people start using words like ALL and everyone when it's obvious that's not the case they lose credibility.


I think your point is a bit harsh as I clearly was referring to people I have talked to before this thread. Of course "now" I have talked to people that speak highly about the scouts.

I think your just getting way too defensive and angry when we were simply trying to discuss the ups and downs of the organization.
_________________________
FlickR

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#9470 - 12/07/10 05:19 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: RoguePhotonic]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
for the record, the first amendment applies to the government. Not private organizations or individuals.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

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#9471 - 12/07/10 05:30 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: DUG]
Old Frog Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1
Loc: CA USA
RIGHT ON DUG! I cannot write as eloquently as ye; thanks for being my spokesman! I owe a great deal of what I've become and accomplished in the many chapters of my life to the foundation that the BSA gave me. I did not have a father so I found a father-figure through the BSA. The BSA afforded me the opportunity to experience so many things and see so many places I will never be able to express my appreciation for. I was a Sea-Scout, Air-Explorer and finally an Eagle-Scout. OH the experiences a poor country hick had thanks to the BSA. I got to build working model rockets, learn how to fly a C-119 and race Flying Dutchmen; not bad for a kid that grew up living in shacks with dirt floors.
Yes, there are inexperienced leaders that should not be responsible for our kids; but maybe part of the problem is there are a lot of inexperienced and disinterested parents that should take a more active interest in their children's lives. If parents were assistant leaders they would be able to monitor the leaders and, if nothing else, extract their children if they felt they were in harm's way. It's kind of like politics; since we don't really control our "representatives" they are allowed to run amuck; and we can't really blame them; we should be blaming ourselves.
One other little note, DUG said it right; don't make such broad, general statements. I am sure that "all the people" were not interviewed about this subject; DUG and I weren't interviewed; I'd guess there was a very select group surveyed on this subject to have "all" of them express the same opinion. That's kind of like only asking people exiting Starbucks if they like coffee and not asking folks coming out of Jamba Juice.
_________________________
Remember it is not a Mission; it is a hike (don't hesitate to abort)!

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#9472 - 12/07/10 05:40 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: tdtz]
KevinR Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 591
Loc: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted By: tdtz
for the record, the first amendment applies to the government. Not private organizations or individuals.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Hmm ... that's a new interpretation.

Maybe we should stick to hiking and mountain climbing.

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#9473 - 12/07/10 05:47 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: AlanK]
RoguePhotonic Offline


Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 558
Loc: Bakersfield CA
Quote:
for the record, the first amendment applies to the government. Not private organizations or individuals.


Agreed, I had a different outlook on what BSA is which I am glad is corrected.

Quote:
I'd guess there was a very select group surveyed on this subject to have "all" of them express the same opinion.


If your referring to me it really wasn't, it ranged from Rangers in the back country, co-workers on job sites, a diverse group of trail worker volunteers I have met and representatives of organizations that often work with BSA.

I have to admit it's nice to hear positive opinions and stories about the BSA and how they have effected others lives, hearing nothing but negative things becomes a bit taxing.
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FlickR

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