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Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9523 12/09/10 05:50 PM
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Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
DUG #9524 12/10/10 06:55 AM
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Thanks DUG... I try very hard not to spout of information without researching it or knowing what I'm talking about first.

I knew that documentation was out there, just hadn't dug it up yet. Thanks for doing my "leg work"...

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
SoCalGirl #9528 12/10/10 12:01 PM
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The document states that the fuel (rubbing alcohol) is NOT RECOMMENDED. It does not state that it is banned.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9529 12/10/10 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Laurie
The document states that the fuel (rubbing alcohol) is NOT RECOMMENDED. It does not state that it is banned.



Last edited by DUG; 12/10/10 02:58 PM. Reason: Unauthorized edit
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9530 12/10/10 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Laurie
The document states that the fuel (rubbing alcohol) is NOT RECOMMENDED. It does not state that it is banned.


Laurie... having done further research (up to and including speaking with a live person at my local Council) I can assure you that anything on the "not recommended" list is prohibited from being used while on a Scout outing. Period.

Page 31 in the Guide to Safe Scouting contains the list, as does the link posted earlier by DUG.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with the information I am posting. If you have questions about the truthfulness or accuracy please feel free to refer to the Guide to Safe Scouting "Fuels and Fire Prevention", call your local Boy Scout Council, or better yet... call the National Boy Scout Headquarters in Irvine, TX... 972-580-2000

The gentleman at National wasn't avaliable when I called... but I left him a message and sent him an email.... I'll post his response when I recieve it.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
SoCalGirl #9531 12/10/10 01:45 PM
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Wow-nothing like jumping down someone's throat. My point was not to argue about the fuel, it was to make my point to the person that posted about Sean Whitley's death. They said that BSA no longer allows the use of rubbing alcohol - did they ever allow it? No, I am not a person who has been on this site before nor am I bashing the scouts. I was led to this site by an article that had mentioned my son's death. Just so all of you understand, my twin boys absolutely loved the scouts and worked for the camp for a few years. They lived for the scouts - in fact, I buried Sean in his scout uniform. Sean's death was caused by an Eagle scout playing with rubbing alcohol that he went out and purchased (not used as fuel) while he was supervising minors at the camp. Fireplay with bug spray, etc was also used to play with. His death was due more to a lack of supervision by the camp directors, as it was proven that they knew about it and sometimes participated. If I had to do it over, I still would have let him work at the camp he loved so much, but maybe I should have not put so much trust in the camp's supervision. His twin brother Ken did go on to receive his Eagle Scout honor that summer. Please, now make all your comments - I am not and won't be a regular on this discussion board, just wanted to clarify that alcohol was not banned because of Sean's death - it had never been allowed to begin with.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9534 12/10/10 02:12 PM
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Laurie... it was not my intention to jump down your throat.. and I offer my most sincere apologies. I misunderstood your intentions and thought you were argueing with me over the allowability of fuels such as alcohol during scouting events. I have argued vehemently with Scout Leaders and other adults who have taken the "letter of the law" over the "intent of the law".. using guidelines such as the Guide to Safe Scouting as loose intrepretations of possible suggestions on how to conduct their behavior and supervision of their boys. I, mistakenly, thought you were one of those adults.

My motto is "Not on my Watch"... I refuse to let my troop turn into a headline while my name is in the leader section of the Tour Permit or while my boys are on an outing that I have painstakingly planned. I also fight hard to ensure that no boy in my council, that I have the ability to affect, is injured or worse on an outing. I participate as a trainer in most of the outdoor leadership and training classes conducted by my local council and actively go to troop and leadership trainings on smaller levels as well in order to ensure the safety of all of our sons (and daughters) out there....

Originally Posted By: Laurie
They said that BSA no longer allows the use of rubbing alcohol - did they ever allow it?

To answer this part of the question... yes.. BSA did allow rubbing (isopropyl)alcohol as a source of fuel in homemade backpacking stoves such as the "alcohol-can" stove. These widely used stoves were banned after the tragedy that claimed your sons life (in May of 2010 I believe).

I am truely sorry for your loss and meant, in no way whatsoever, to trivialize Seans death or his love for Scouting. My original post was merely trying to show what the BSA National levels reaction to some of the accidents suffered by Scouts has been over the last 5 years.

Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9536 12/10/10 02:20 PM
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Laurie, I think I can speak everyone here and say we are extremely sorry about your son's terribly unfortunate death!

And I apologize for the wording used above. As Chris wrote, she thought you were arguing with her, and I think DUG believed the same.

We did not know you are the unfortunate mother who has to go through life remembering a son lost in such an awful tragedy. We are truly sorry.

Last edited by Steve C; 12/10/10 02:28 PM.
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
Laurie #9539 12/10/10 03:20 PM
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Laurie,

Thanks very much for sharing.

I can assure you that this is not the norm on this MB, and I truly hope you'll give the rest of us a second chance. For whatever reason, I think this particular topic has hit an unusually raw nerve in one or two people, and a lot of that was already going on before you jumped in.

CaT (David)


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger
CaT #9541 12/10/10 04:13 PM
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I think that it is time to lock this thread.

Unfortunately it has hit too many raw nerves, generated too many hostilities, and hurt too many people.

May this thread rest in peace. And so too, every scout who may have been hurt or worse in a scouting accident.


Edit: DUG wrote this just as the thread was locked. I'm adding it here:

Quote:
Well I think this thread has officially gone off the deep end.

Of course it goes without saying that I am deeply sorry for Laurie's loss. As a parent of a Life scout I can not imagine losing him or what it must feel like.

This thread started as simple post about some needless scouting deaths. Quickly other old timers started posting their negative interactions with scouts.

In the middle of this we were visited by a troll who the mods suspected was someone who has harassed other hiking boards. His comments were removed and the discussion continued with Chris offering up some positives.

Since it was Laurie's 1st post ever and it occurred in the middle of a volatile thread, I incorrectly assumed she was trying to stir up trouble.

That being said, I stand by my comment that the fuel in question was used in scouting until early 2010 when it was placed on the "not recommended list". I think the point Chris was trying to make was scouting did learn from mistakes and trying to make things safer.

So do hope that "the rest of you" get a second chance.


Last edited by Steve C; 12/11/10 08:16 AM.
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