Mt Whitney Webcam
Mt Williamson Webcam
Feature Topics
Who's Online
0 registered (), 6 Guests and 55 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
3270 Members
13 Forums
5344 Topics
49604 Posts

Max Online: 382 @ 11/07/12 05:45 AM
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#9474 - 12/07/10 05:54 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: KevinR]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
"Hmm ... that's a new interpretation.

Maybe we should stick to hiking and mountain climbing."


Those are the actual words to the first amendment. Not an interpretation.

It doesn't say "nobody will abridge freedom of speech" or "corporations will not abridge freedom of speech" or "private organizations will not abridge freedom of speech" it says "congress shall make no law....."

Later it was extended to include state and local governments as well.

yes, perhaps we should stick with hiking


Edited by tdtz (12/07/10 06:02 PM)

Top
#9477 - 12/07/10 09:16 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: tdtz]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
I had every intention of responding to this thread earlier today and actually had a rather long post prepared... then I thought to edit it and, just as I got it perfect, ended up with a "you waited to long and got timed out" message.... thats probably a good thing because it gave me time to reflect and rethink what I was originally going to say....


Scout Leaders like DUG and I devote huge amounts of our time to the Scouting program. We were told "one hour a week" of volunteer time would be all the commitment required of us. What we weren't initially told was that the "one hour a week" was per child we would touch the lives of. So... take the 15 or so boys in our separate troops... thats 15 hours a week each for us... now take what we teach those boys and then they take it and teach.. lets say two friends each. So now we've taken the 15 boys (hours) a week and multiplied it to 60 boys (hours) per week... thats more time then I spend at the office (and not really an exaggeration most weeks).

Do we do it because we enjoy spending all of our vacation time and spare money on other peoples children? No.

Do we do it because we get paid to do it? No...

We do it "for the boys" because no one else seems willing to step up and do it. The culture of todays youth tends to revolve around electronic entertainment and a near complete lack of physical activities (and no... the WII Sports doesn't count. Sorry) and most parents/adults seem to be Ok with that. Childhood obesity is at an all time high... and National Park visitation by people under 20 is at an all time low. Programs like the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts work to combat both of those problems.People like DUG and I (and the other leaders I've spoken to on this board, within my community, and in my travels) are the instruments of that combat.

I don't know how many of you followed the link at the bottom of that LA Times article to the list of the 32 "Scouting" related deaths in the last 5 years... but I did. Then I spent two hours researching articles and specifics (as much as I could find) on each of those deaths. Everyone on this board is right... some of those deaths were completely preventable and should never have happened. BSA looks at each and every incident and accident with a finely focused microscope and does its best to learn from them...

In January of 2010 Ian Miller was killed when sledding. He was not wearing head gear and fell backwards off his sled, hitting his head in the process. After this happened BSA, having previously "suggested" helmets for such activities, made them mandatory.

In 2008 4 boys were killed by a tornado while camping in Iowa. It happened in the middle of the night, struck them completely unawares, and there were no sirens because of teh remote area where they were camping. The surviving Scouts rendered first response to the injured and dying, possibly saving lives. After this incident the BSA instituted a training called the Hazardous Weather training. It is mandatory for at least one Leader on each outing to have this training.

Sean Whitley died as a result of burns suffered from something called a "fire ring" in 2008. One of his buddies was messing around with alcohol, a type of fuel allowed at the time for backpacking stoves, and poured the fuel directly on the the fire. The flame backtracked up the bottle and the boy panicked, throwing the now flaming bottle. Sean and one other Scout were injured, Sean succumbed to his injuries three days later. BSA no longer allows the use of that type of fuel within our organization.

Going down the rest of the list there is everything from river raft drownings to lightening strikes, tree falls to being ran over by a parade float. Were every single one of these deaths preventable? No... there were some that were complete flukes of nature and some that were health related and beyond anyones control.

In most of them the leaders did absolutely nothing wrong and actually did everything they could to prevent the accidents. But accidents do happen. The girls in 2005 were sitting 15 feet away from the base of a tree, in the shade, when the trunk suddenly split and fell on their picnic table, striking and killing 8 year old Kelly.

Some of them were completely preventable... and lessons were learned from them.

I guess what this rambling monologue is actually trying to say is this.... people like DUG and I devote our everything to our Scouts and others. I don't know about DUG but I, personally, am not only involved with my Scouts at a Troop level... but am on the District AND Council level training teams to share my knowledge and experiences with other Leaders. We all take what we do very seriously and, even if no insult is intended... tend to get defensive when someone has something negative to say about something that is so much a part of us.

It's like I tell my boys whenever we're out in the community. You are a representative of not only your Troop and Council... but of Boy Scouts of America as a whole. If you're out there messing around and doing something that you aren't supposed to be doing then it reflects badly on all of us... not just on you. People aren't going to look at you and say "What a little brat" ... they're going to look at you and say "Man... he's supposed to be a Scout???"

The same goes for the leadership... people look at that leader that took his Scouts through chest deep snow and split his troop... or the leader who let his Boys go climbing on some natural arches and try to leap a 6' gap between them... and they say "Thats supposed to be a Scout Leader.... Wow....". I take it personally when someone does something stupid that I have to be held accountable for... because that is what happens whenever a leader makes a mistake or does something dumb that results in something tragic. Every single leader in the entire organization is held liable for that childs injury/death, because we are every leader...

When something negative happens it overshadows every positive thing that the Scouts have ever done. No one thinks about the Sea Scouts who save the life of the abandoned diver off the L.A. coast. Or the Scouts who rescued the severely injured hiker in the Appalachians and took them to safety. Or the Eagle Scouts who have been Military Leaders, Presidents, or walked on the Moon....

I seem to be running out of steam.. but I think I got out everything I wanted to say. No... we were not personally responsible for that childs death on that snowy cliff. Yes... we will bristle up when we feel our organization is being unjustly judged. Yes... we will continue to do what we do... despite what anyone else thinks of us...

Just my two cents worth...
Chris... aka SoCalGirl
Troop 363 Assistant Scoutmaster
Troop 363 Outdoor Chairman
Crew 363 Assistant Advisor
Crew 1833 Adult Support Member
Heartland District Training Team
San Diego-Imperial County Council Training Team
Proud Mother of a Life ranked Boy Scout
Proud Mother of a female Venture Crew Scout....

Top
#9478 - 12/07/10 09:20 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: tdtz]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Hey, if you want to get into serious political discussions on mountaineering forums, SuperTopo is the place! I believe the thread titled "Why are those Republicans so wrong about everything" has something over 33 THOUSAND posts.

But seriously, I think there have been some good things brought up in this thread. I would hope that everyone has learned something of which they were unaware....that those who are not involved with the Scouts, about how much good they do, in so many things. For those who are, that their public reputations in wilderness settings are not what they might be, in spite of all the hard work and dedication that goes into the Scouts by some. Some have learned things about the nature of Scouting they didn't know.

I don't know what more you could want from a meeting of minds?

Top
#9479 - 12/07/10 09:27 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Ken
with the Scouts, about how much good they do, in so many things. For those who are, that their public reputations in wilderness settings are not what they might be, in spite of all the hard work and dedication that goes into the Scouts by some.


Oh believe me Ken.. those of us involved in the program are very well aware of the reputation that some have of us in the wilderness. Then again... alot of those who aren't involved in Scouts get their opinions of our backcountry "ethics" and "behavior" through the media and "I Shouldn't Be Alive"....

And you're right... this thread has been a rather... interesting... discussion...

Top
#9480 - 12/07/10 09:49 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Hey, Chris, that was just an outstanding post!

You obviously look at it the way that I'd intended my remarks to reflect. The bad always, always drowns out the good. It is sad that it is so, but that is human nature, I suppose.

However, I'd point out that you typify the problem pointed out in the article: you and the others that you work with find the national "guidelines" inadequate for safe conduct of these activities, which they seemed to document. This would go along with your and DUG's personal experiences.

And that would be the issue, not what local leaders, like yourselves, and the people in Orange Co cited in the article, who have chosen to lead at a higher standard, but what is allowed to happen based upon who happens to become a leader locally. As the article said:

"Some parents think the organization should not depend on local councils and troops to comply with voluntary national safety recommendations."

When I read "Adding even more rigid rules would increase bureaucracy and make activities even harder to organize, some parents say."---I think, Oh, my God...we are back to priorities.

The response from the organization just didn't seem quite on point, in the article.

I suppose that is the problem with guidelines: you are then going to be at the level of the least skilled, least experienced, for the entire organization.

Top
#9481 - 12/07/10 10:00 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
tdtz Offline


Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 511
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Ken
Hey, if you want to get into serious political discussions on mountaineering forums, SuperTopo is the place! I believe the thread titled "Why are those Republicans so wrong about everything" has something over 33 THOUSAND posts.


Nah, I want to like the people on this board. I might actually meet some of y'all on the trail someday.

Top
#9482 - 12/07/10 10:49 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: tdtz]
Steve C Offline


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 7235
Loc: Fresno, CA
> Nah, I want to like the people on this board.

I agree.

> has something over 33 THOUSAND posts.

That would bury wagga's Jessica/Laura thread in a few days. Say, wagga, where are those sailing girls?

Top
#9483 - 12/08/10 04:24 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
CaT Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Blacklick, OH (formerly SoCal)
Excellent post, Chris! Thanks.

CaT
_________________________
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)

Top
#9485 - 12/08/10 04:33 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Bulldog34 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 1254
Loc: Atlanta
Chris, that post was just exceptional. I couldn't agree more about the direction our youth as a whole has been headed for years (as in, away from the outdoors and an active lifestyle), and what the broad range of scouting organizations do to try and stem this depressing tide. As I said earlier, if not scouting, then who? Far, far too many of today's parents just don't have the inclination to lead their kids into such a lifestyle - I shudder to think what the eventual outcome would be if the millions of kids in scouting today didn't have that experience and diversion available to them.

As others have pointed out, the outdoor adventures are just a fraction of the good work done by scout troops across this country, and I think that fact gets lost among the this-shouldn't-have-happened wilderness stories that grab the headlines. Before the BSA in particular is dismissed by some folks as a haven for bigotry and ineptness, the totality of it's efforts should be considered. Organizations the size of BSA - who are hugely dependent on un-paid volunteers to present the face and culture of said organization - are bound to have blemishes and pimples. It's unavoidable, regardless of the vetting, training and compliance standards that may be in place. Not to get political, but take a look at ACORN as a glaring example of the challenges of managing volunteerism and the trouble that can come from it.

When you consider the millions of kids involved in scouting in the US, and the tens of thousands of volunteer troop leaders, moms, dads, et al, it's a wonder that there aren't a lot more newsworthy incidents. I view that as a testament to the vitality and responsiveness of the scouting organizations. Are they perfect? Of course not, but it's folks like you and Doug who keep pushing toward that goal of perfection that Ken mentioned, and you both deserve our gratitude and respect.

The biggest challenge these organizations face is cultural, though. At some point in the early teen experience, scouting becomes un-cool to be involved in. Burchey called his troop a "dumping ground for the socially retarded", and he felt the need to get out. While that is an extreme characterization, there's no getting around the fact that negative peer pressure about scouting drives a lot of boys and girls out of their organizations during very critical formative years. I don't know how that gets improved, but I think it's a priority that we find a way. Maybe a super-popular Boy Scout Rap will come out of nowhere and turn the tide, but I doubt it.

Our 11 YO daughter is in her 3rd year of Girl Scouts and my wife is a troop volunteer. A couple of years ago she came home from a GSA training session and told me that the organization has a bundle of money dedicated to college scholarships that goes partly unused each year for lack of enough girls to endow. After I picked my jaw up off the floor I grabbed our daughter and explained to her in no uncertain terms that, cool or not, she would be a Girl Scout at least till the age of 22 . . .

Again, kudos to both you and Doug. We should all have that degree of commitment to the kids who will be running things 20 years from now.

Top
#9490 - 12/08/10 07:11 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Bulldog34]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Ken
However, I'd point out that you typify the problem pointed out in the article: you and the others that you work with find the national "guidelines" inadequate for safe conduct of these activities, which they seemed to document. This would go along with your and DUG's personal experiences.

I have found that the intention of the guidelines and the actual letter of the "guidelines" are often times open to completely different intrepretations. This is where the issue needs resolved on the national level. If a leader, district or council looks at the rule and abides by the intention behind it things are usually Ok. If they look at that same set of words and say "it says (insert verbage here) and this is what it means (repeat previously inserted verbage)" then something gets missed.

Originally Posted By: Ken
"Some parents think the organization should not depend on local councils and troops to comply with voluntary national safety recommendations."


I think that the key word in that statement is "voluntary" and that is where an outsiders misinterpretation might lie... most of the trainings issued by the BSA National level are NOT voluntary for Troops wanting to explore the outdoors. Before a group is allowed to go on anything longer then a dayhike, leaders MUST attend certain trainings. Now... to be fair it is not necessary for EVERY leader to have the trainings, but at least one leader on the outing must. These include, but are not limited to the IOLS (Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills), Hazardous Weather Training, Swim on Safely, Boating Safely... etc. A new regulation passed this year requires all "high adventure" activities to be accompanied by a leader certified in Wilderness First Aide (guess what my next training is?)

Before climbing activities happen there MUST be a certified climbing instructor present and you should see the list of restrictions and specifications that the gear must meet before teh boys can use it.

Before a swimming activity (or any activity involving water) happens, there are certain guidelines and requirements that must be met including having a CPR trained person present and a certified lifeguard.

There are some trainings that are voluntary and can be cost prohibitive.. PowderHorn and Woodbadge to name a couple. However, these specific trainings focus more on the program itself and what a leaders role is in working with the boys and shaping the troop and leadership skills on interacting with the youth.... and not in preparing us, as leaders, for teh outdoor part of the program.

Originally Posted By: Ken
When I read "Adding even more rigid rules would increase bureaucracy and make activities even harder to organize, some parents say."---I think, Oh, my God...we are back to priorities.


I agree with you here... and disagree with the statement. More rigid rules could possibly make activities harder to organize in that we would have to ensure that all fo the training requirements are met. Last year when I started planning our Spring Break trip for this year I had ALL of the training requirements necessary... then this summer National added the requirement of Wilderness First Aide before any "high adventure" activity. That threw a wrench in my works and made me have to change my plans slightly. Am I saying that I canceled the trip or changed the venue? No... I'm saying that now, in addition to all the other planning, reservations and organization required for a trip like this... I have to schedule a training and get as many of my leaders as possible to attend it.


Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
The biggest challenge these organizations face is cultural, though. At some point in the early teen experience, scouting becomes un-cool to be involved in. Burchey called his troop a "dumping ground for the socially retarded", and he felt the need to get out. While that is an extreme characterization, there's no getting around the fact that negative peer pressure about scouting drives a lot of boys and girls out of their organizations during very critical formative years. I don't know how that gets improved, but I think it's a priority that we find a way. Maybe a super-popular Boy Scout Rap will come out of nowhere and turn the tide, but I doubt it.


I don't know about the "dumping ground" thing... my Troop was chartered with a mission statement specific to including physically, mentally and emotionally handicapped and disabled youth in our program. The boys in my troop who do not live wiht disabilities are shown how to work with the youth who do and are guided in how to work with these other children to help them succeed to the best of their abilities within the scouting program. They interact with the all the youth in our troop at as much the same level as possible and all of our activities, to the best of our ability, include some sort of adapted program for the boys unable to participate in the full activity with the rest of the boys.

I've seen this strange phenomenom of social akwardness though. It's kind of like when a child hits that age where it is no longer "cool" to tell their parent "I love you" in front of their friends... and the parent, instead, gets some mumbled gobbldygook under the childs breath as they turn away.

How to fix that is, indeed, a dilemma. Last year when we went to Zion National Park for Spring Break we stopped in Mesquite, NV for gas, restroom and snacks. When we travel it is required that the boys and leaders all wear their Class "A" uniform shirts. You know the ones.. the khaki colored ones with the BSA emblem patches and all that cool stuff? Well... we went into the gas statoin mini market and there were some teenage girls there... one of my older boys automatically took his uniform shirt off and shoved it under his arm (he had a t-shirt) on underneath. I, of course, couldn't let this pass. So I strolled up to him (in my full uniform) and confronted him... "Not cool enough to be a Boy Scout?" in front of the girls... He just grinned at me and put his uniform back on.. the girls laughed and still talked to him...

As leaders we have a struggle on our hands to not only overcome the stigma of "nerdiness" associated with Scouts... but to help these youth (girls and boys alike) through the formidable teen years. The good news though is that, like the saying "I love you" to a parent, the kids seem to outgrow the embarrasment of admitting that they're Scouts as they get a little older and most of them learn to take pride in what they've done.

These are the youth who go on to get their Eagle Scout (or the Venturing Gold Award for females) and become the military leaders, the astronauts and the Presidents, and the heros of our future.

Top
#9492 - 12/08/10 07:18 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
I forgot to add this link... for any interested in some reading material... this is the "Guide to Safe Scouting" that we use as a basic handbook when planning activities.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

Top
#9499 - 12/08/10 09:06 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
Once again, Chris, great post. I love the clarity of your thinking.

It must be frustrating to try to hit "moving requirements". You'd think that there'd be significant lead times.

I shudder to think about the requirements for mortar and cannons! eek

Top
#9500 - 12/08/10 09:17 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: Ken]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Ken
It must be frustrating to try to hit "moving requirements". You'd think that there'd be significant lead times.


It really is frustrating at times... but we, for the most part, understand the necessity of the constantly shifting regulations.

I have heard quite a few leaders fight and argue against the new "constraints"... and have actually gone toe-to-toe with one or two of them. Usually those who either 1-aren't going to abide by them anyways, or 2- suddenly have to cram something in because they've got a trip planned in a month or so.

I try very hard to just take it in stride and go with the flow. If I wanted to take my Scouts someplace where I didn't have to worry about anything.... I'd take them to the movies... wink

Oh... and regarding the cannons and mortars... please refer to Chapter VIII of the Guide to Safe Scouting...


Edited by SoCalGirl (12/08/10 09:20 AM)

Top
#9504 - 12/08/10 10:18 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Burchey
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: SoCalGirl
Originally Posted By: Bulldog34
The biggest challenge these organizations face is cultural, though. At some point in the early teen experience, scouting becomes un-cool to be involved in. Burchey called his troop a "dumping ground for the socially retarded", and he felt the need to get out. While that is an extreme characterization, there's no getting around the fact that negative peer pressure about scouting drives a lot of boys and girls out of their organizations during very critical formative years. I don't know how that gets improved, but I think it's a priority that we find a way. Maybe a super-popular Boy Scout Rap will come out of nowhere and turn the tide, but I doubt it.


I don't know about the "dumping ground" thing... my Troop was chartered with a mission statement specific to including physically, mentally and emotionally handicapped and disabled youth in our program. The boys in my troop who do not live wiht disabilities are shown how to work with the youth who do and are guided in how to work with these other children to help them succeed to the best of their abilities within the scouting program. They interact with the all the youth in our troop at as much the same level as possible and all of our activities, to the best of our ability, include some sort of adapted program for the boys unable to participate in the full activity with the rest of the boys.

I've seen this strange phenomenom of social akwardness though. It's kind of like when a child hits that age where it is no longer "cool" to tell their parent "I love you" in front of their friends... and the parent, instead, gets some mumbled gobbldygook under the childs breath as they turn away.


Just to clarify the dumping ground thing...our troop had a few disabled kids, but the majority were not disabled. The majority were just socially awkward and under-developed. These kids were not "cool" by any stretch of the imagination. That being said - I fit right in. We were a motley crew of dorks, to simplify things, but is that really such a bad thing? How often do the "cool" kids in school amount to much? My experience is that the majority (not all) peak in high school, and then it's all downhill from there.

I'm not sure about the rest of the troops of then or now, but here's a little taste of what we did while in the Scouts - this is what our leaders had to deal with in addition to trying to instill values and the love of the outdoors.

- flaming arrows above the methane vents of the campground outhouses
- carving wood pipes with our pocket knives to smoke chewing tobacco in
- number 2 off the side of an aircraft carrier
- elaborate summer camp snare systems to catch raccoons (who would then be killed)
- flying action figures from the back of the van on the freeway using fishing line and our neckerchief for the parachute
- osage-orange fights in the woods (two kids knocked out, one wandered off and had no idea where he was)
- Upper echelon nerds CONSTANTLY berating/abusing the lower tier
- night-swims out to boats anchored in the lake, lifting and tying off the anchors so they drift a mile away
- slingshots, slingshots, slingshots
- slitting a screen on the mess hall window, inserting captured raccoon for a night, chaos ensued

While typing this list, I'm smiling in amazement that more of us didn't die during those years. We were idiots, as most pre-teen and teenage boys are.

Top
#9506 - 12/08/10 11:15 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: ]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Burchey
Just to clarify the dumping ground thing...our troop had a few disabled kids, but the majority were not disabled. The majority were just socially awkward and under-developed. These kids were not "cool" by any stretch of the imagination. That being said - I fit right in. We were a motley crew of dorks, to simplify things, but is that really such a bad thing? How often do the "cool" kids in school amount to much? My experience is that the majority (not all) peak in high school, and then it's all downhill from there. ...
While typing this list, I'm smiling in amazement that more of us didn't die during those years. We were idiots, as most pre-teen and teenage boys are.


As my teenage daughter would say... O....M....G.... lol.

In our Troop the absolute upper echelon "nerds" in our group consist of the Leaders... we sit around campfires during campouts and throw Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Princess Bride movie quotes at each other. The "bring with you" list for our last leader meeting included "Sorting Hat, magic wands, and poly-juice potion". Some of our leaders have been known to, on occassion, band together for non-scouting events such as Dungeons and Dragons role-playing parties.

That being said... I probably would have been forced to throttle the living daylights out of one of you boys. Oh wait... thats against the BSA's "Youth Protection Guidelines"... well then... you would have been dismissed from our trip... and if necessary other trips... and yes.. I really will call your Mother from our campsite in Utah to drive all the way from San Diego to come get you... and I don't care if you're Aunt lives just in the next town or county... I will only release you to your Mother or Father....

Top
#9507 - 12/08/10 11:50 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Burchey
Unregistered


Good stuff, SoCalGirl, sounds like the nerds never actually grow up. Speaking of, did you enjoy the latest Harry Potter as much as I did?

I wonder if our insanity as a troop had anything to do with the lack of a female leader in the group? We spent less time dorking around the fire, and more time making bets on how long it would take for the skunks to smell the peanut M&Ms we put in Richie's sleeping bag.

Top
#9508 - 12/08/10 11:57 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
wagga Offline


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 2213
Loc: Humbug Reach (Pop. 3)
Originally Posted By: SoCalGirl

Oh... and regarding the cannons and mortars... please refer to Chapter VIII of the Guide to Safe Scouting...


I resolutely refuse to have anything to do with any organization that explicitly prohibits the recreational use of large bore cannons. Or large bore canons, either.
_________________________
Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII

Top
#9509 - 12/08/10 11:59 AM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: ]
SoCalGirl Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Spring Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Burchey
Good stuff, SoCalGirl, sounds like the nerds never actually grow up. Speaking of, did you enjoy the latest Harry Potter as much as I did?

I wonder if our insanity as a troop had anything to do with the lack of a female leader in the group? We spent less time dorking around the fire, and more time making bets on how long it would take for the skunks to smell the peanut M&Ms we put in Richie's sleeping bag.


Burchey... I can honestly say that there are times when being the Bearer of Estrogen in such a Testosterone Saturated enviornment is a definite drawback... "Gee Mrs. S... did you know that your tent is see through?" (At which point in time I quickly adapted to changing INSIDE my sleeping bag)... or the ever popular (and wrong) theory of "If I can't see you.. you can't see me".... please, please, please make sure you're completely out of sight of the trail before you drop trow to do your thing...

Poor Richie... did he get any sleep that night?

Oh.. and I haven't seen the latest Harry Potter yet... it keeps getting bumped down my "to do" list..

Originally Posted By: wagga
I resolutely refuse to have anything to do with any organization that explicitly prohibits the recreational use of large bore cannons. Or large bore canons, either.


Well Wagga... BSA just has to draw the line somewhere.. it saddens me to know that your knowledge and vast reseviour of experience are going to be on the opposite side of the line then those of us in the Scouting World... wink


Edited by SoCalGirl (12/08/10 12:01 PM)

Top
#9510 - 12/08/10 01:35 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Ken Offline


Registered: 10/29/09
Posts: 742
Loc: Los Angeles
And just so that DUG doesn't think that I don't understand what it means to be on the other side of the fence.....

One or two years back, George made a comment in one of the threads about PCT through hikers leaving messes in bear boxes and fire rings in the wilderness...I was mortified. I identify with that community, and I speak yearly to about half that group leaving from the southern terminus about mountaineering techniques.

So, if they are doing bad things, it is MY FAULT. I spoke at length with another partipant, AsABat. We went through the typical 5 stages of grief:
-Denial "it can't be the thru hikers"
-Anger "what are those idiots doing, and who is it"
-Bargaining "I know it is wrong, but the challenges are so great"
-Depression "I'm so sad, why bother with anything"
-Acceptance "I can't control people, but I can at least educate people as to how their actions ARE noticed, and affect others

Are things better? I dunno. I hope so. It is not an organization, with hierarchy and responsibility, but I hope that some people find that knowing things alters their actions.

Top
#9522 - 12/09/10 04:19 PM Re: Boy Scouts, outdoors, and danger [Re: SoCalGirl]
Laurie Offline


Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 3
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Just to clarify - You stated that in Sean Whitley's death,
"BSA no longer allows the use of that type of fuel". That is incorrect. BSA never changed their rules about rubbing alcohol. Sean's death was caused by his supervisor purchasing a large bottle of rubbing alcohol on his day off to play with by lighting it on fire on a table. All the boys involved were camp counselors, and three boys were burned including Sean's twin brother. Except for the supervisor who lit the fire, the rest of the boys were minors. The camp directors were well aware of the continuous fireplay at Citta. BSA did NOT ban rubbing alcohol and it was not used as fuel at this camp. The supervisor was charged for third degree aggravated assault.

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >