Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Half Dome Permit System Misfires

Study Says Half Dome Permit System In Yosemite National Park Apparently Does Not Enhance Overall Hiker Safety.

"The monitoring report noted that an "unimpeded visitor travel" threshold of just 30 people at any one time on the cables leading up the dome's shoulder was exceeded 15 percent on weekends under the permit system, but that on weekdays when permits were not required that limit was surpassed 65 percent of the time.

A higher "threshold," of 70 people on the cables at any one time, a number "when visitors perceive safety issues and unacceptable experiential conditions," was not exceeded on sampled weekend days, but was surpassed almost a quarter of the time on weekdays, the report added."

Not surprising.
People get locked out of the weekend permits which quickly sell out and are only available online, so people move to the weekdays instead.

CaT

I can't find my post on yosemitenews re. this.
but.. it goes something like this.
blah blah blah
Talked to the ranger at length at the subdome
when went up it on dayhike up Clouds and Quarter Domes
and Liberty Cap... he said no one has been
denied going up the dome this year... the permit
system is working great.. crowds are moving to the
weekdays... and since it's working so well...
permits will be required every day next year.

Other comment I have is.. I've talked to a bazillion
rangers out in the wilderness and I have never
ever had a "bad encounter" so I'm baffled about those
comments on other threads. All backcountry rangers
I've talked to are happy to chit-chat about places
to explore, the state of the park, and whatnot.
I really enjoy talking to them whereas normally I don't
really care to see anyone. Was baffled to actually
see one in Bench Canyon this year.

> but was surpassed almost a quarter of the time on weekdays, the report added."

In other words, they'll be extending the permits to 7 days a week.

It is curious that they have a 30-people threshold, and then a 70-person number at which people report "unacceptable experiential conditions"

In a few years they will be planning to remove the cables.

Seriously? As in, shutting down the route, or "you're on your own"?

The Cable Route is rated class 3, while the same face away from the cables is rated class 5.

It is amazing there are not more accidents currently.

First, this was the first year of a two year study.
Second, it appeared to me, to have been done well. A reasonable number of data points. Reasonable statistics.
-----------------
I was surprised by the outcome. I would not have been surprised by a small shift of hikers to thursdays and mondays. There was a HUGE shift, although Th, M were the larger beneficiaries, tu and w also were boosted.

I was not surprised by the "no show" rate. Steve had predicted that. 25%, by my quick and dirty glance.

They have some interesting predictive charts, as to different levels on the cables predicted, based upon number of actual hikers on the route.

I would agree that the data preliminarily supports daily permits, I'd guess that gets about 400 people on the trail.

I like that they are trying to get away from the "logjam" on the cables that everyone agrees is a safety hazzard.


This is good work.

Steve is kidding. They're not taking down the cable route.

I posted b/c this sorta "news" irritates me.

The permit system worked wonderously. It didn't misfire.
It did exactly what they wanted it to do. It worked
so well that they are extending it to all days next year
as I said above.

Yes, I was kidding.  But my opinion came leaking through that wilderness managers feel they are doing their assigned mandate by blocking nearly all access to the wilderness, instead of exploring other possible options.

However, removing the cables completely WAS mentioned as one possible scenario in a public information meeting held at REI here in Fresno by Yosemite NP staff last spring.

What.

IMO the THs are way the heck too close to a lot of places. I cannot tell you how disppointed I was
when hiking up to Lamarck Col. from Ev. Lake only for it to hit me that the TH on the
east is a measly 5 miles away (ok, actually it was a group hiking up from the other side)
Darwin Canyon lost all it allure to me then... esp. since ended up seeing a number of people in
the Canyon and Bench. Was irritated didn't go up towards the Keyhole instead...

You can count me firmly on the removing the cables side.

the cables are THE safety hazard. The number of people on it just makes it more likely to cause accidents.

What I do not comprehend is that people willingly hike up this thing without a harness and carabiners to clip into the cables. Just a pair of rotten gloves to hang on to. WTF? When you make it too easy to go up there, you will have people act carelessly. yes, you can probably do it hundreds of times and nothing will happen, but it's just a matter of time and somebdoy will get dizzy, slip, etc...

here is how it's done safely - we did this hike a long time before they made it illegal to camp up there. Doing this at night, with gear and safety harness was actually pretty cool:



Thing is, as long as people see dozens of others act carelessly because the cables allow it, they will not think this through properly. Peer pressure. Few will ask themselves: What if you faint for whatever crazy altitude related reason? A pair of gloves and your tingling hands won't hold you when the old vasovagal syncope sets in... (fancy world - learned that from my daughter's doc after she's done that a few times on the trails)

The tours on Sydney's Harbor Bridge come to mind - seems like a no-brainer for an insurance company to demand that everyone use a harness. Why one would do Half Dome without any such precaution, I don't understand. the cable is already there! And no, it doesn't slow you down even if there's a lot of traffic. uphill clip on right, downhill clip on the other side. Maybe they should rename this route after Darwin.

It is pretty obvious to me from the above two posts that you will find a full spectrum of opinions here and in the world...

bill-e-g wrote:
> I cannot tell you how disappointed I was... Darwin Canyon lost all it allure to me then... esp. since ended up seeing a number of people in the Canyon and Bench.

I personally don't mind encountering significant numbers of people on the trails.  For those who want to find solitude in the wilderness, I say "Don't expect to find solitude on any trail. All you have to do is make a right-angle turn and walk a quarter mile!"

So many times, I have been nearly unable to get a permit, or have gotten the last one, and then hiked into my destination and found nobody around for a few miles. Yes, it's solitude, but that sure isn't high on my priorities.

Fishmonger wrote:
> What I do not comprehend is that people willingly hike up this thing without a harness and carabiners to clip into the cables.

And I, on the other hand, am one of those who walks up on the outside of the north cable, and zips down on the outside of the south-side cable. No gloves on the way up, to get a better grip, and leather gloves on the way down to get a smoother slide on the cable.

it's quite simple for me - if I see 1000 hikers a day (last summer going from Sunrise Creek to Happy Isles and back up), I don't really feel I need to talk to anyone and I will probably scratch that location off my future visits list. But if I am in the absolute middle of nowhere and run into another hiker there, I will want to meet that person. We're strange creatures.

What????

You do this with a SINGLE carabiner? Not a locker? Not a pair opposed and opposite??????

How can you expose your family to such unsafe techniques?
No skilled and trained climber would do such a thing! The rule is that you never bet your life on a single piece of gear, particularly metal gear. Yikes!



It goes to show you that there are different tolerances for risk, and different mitigations for safety.

There are apparently also those who walk up the rock in sticky rubber, 20 feet away from the cables. c'est le vie.

I'm with Steve with going outside the cables, running backwards down the cables in less than 10 minutes was the highlight of doing Half Dome for me.

RP, Third that.

More and more seem to be going up with the cables laying down
too. Done that too. And I felt safer with the cables
down since they flop over and you get some sticky granite to
actually walk on.
I does amaze me that there aren't more accidents on the
cables though. It's so polished from the bazillion people
going up the same exact route. I would think that
eventually they will need to do something w/r to that.

Steve, I was trying to get you to elaborate...
Personally I try to get at least 50% off trail into the
mix. After a few miles from the TH we rarely see
anyone. If I'm solo-ing and get to where I was gonna
stay and see people I usually move on or stealth camp.

It's official today.

Bummer.

Interesting comments posted following that article:

  Yosemite: Permits mandatory all Half Dome climbs

Bummer indeed.
But it's not unexpected, given that approx. 3 million people visit the park each year (if I recall correctly), and given the number of people who want to do Half Dome, even if they don't know what they are getting themselves into.

CaT

The comments are kind of what I've come to expect from a mass of uneducated people, and people with agendas.

I like that they've done this, as it is a practical step towards safety. Probably the minimal step, to get the job done, without massively affecting what is happening.

The only thing I've not been able to find, is the total number of permits to be issued per day. My assumption would be the same as they used this last year, but I think the data is the study supports a higher number, with the 25% no-show rate, and no ability to "back-fill" the permits day of the climb.

I appreciate that they are still in the design phase, and I'd hope there will be an opportunity for public input on such things before the permanent regs are written.