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Ursack Bear Proof bag
#1822 01/22/10 11:33 AM
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Steve C Offline OP
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Ursack this year has come out with their Ursack S29 AllWhite, which is an 8 oz bag. Combined with the 11 oz aluminum liner, you get a 650 cu inch, 1 lb 3 oz bear proof container for $85. (catalog)

At this point, it is not approved in Yosemite N.P. or in some locations in SEKI, but it offers a good light weight option.

Here's Ursack's update:
Quote:
January 13, 2010

It appears that Ursack will be allowed almost everywhere in the Sierra this year except Yosemite National Park and three areas (Rae Lakes, Dusy Basin, Rock Creek) of SEKI. We calculate that Ursack may be used on more than 98% of the Pacific Crest Trail. SIBBG, the Sierra Agency Black Bear Group, no longer exists. There are no standardized bear canister tests--each Superintendent of Forest Service Manager makes the decision for his or her own area. While Ursack will likely submit the S29 AllWhite Hybrid for consideration by Yosemite and SEKI, there can be no assurance of approval given those parks lack of testing criteria and/or their historical antipathy toward Ursack.


Compare it to:

BearVault Model BV500, 2 lbs. 9 oz., 700 cubic inches, $80 at REI.

WildIdeas Bearikade Weekender MKII, 1 lb 15 oz, 650 cubic inches, $225.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1832 01/22/10 08:04 PM
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I find it a bit comical that the locations listed as it's not approved are locations where bear barrels are mandatory, of course they are legal in areas that don't require anything in the first place wink

I like the Ursack idea and may just get one, it's a nice light weight option although it needs a bit more care in placement so a bear doesn't carry it off.

I got an ear full from a ranger while I passed Timberline Lake because I did not have a bear barrel, I insisted that I knew bear barrels were mandatory for over night stay in the Whitney Zone but I was not camping there, she insisted that I was already in the Whitney Zone at Timberline Lake and that it covers down to Crabtree Meadows (not true), although I had stayed that night at Wallace Creek the simple fact that I had an over night permit and was passing through the Whitney Zone made her take down my information and claim I would probably get a fine in the mail, well it never came of course grin

I would love to have said "well I have a Ursack!" probably would have been lectured for allot longer.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
RoguePhotonic #1835 01/23/10 08:34 PM
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Quote:
I like the Ursack idea and may just get one, it's a nice light weight option although it needs a bit more care in placement so a bear doesn't carry it off.

I got an ear full from a ranger while I passed Timberline Lake because I did not have a bear barrel, I insisted that I knew bear barrels were mandatory for over night stay in the Whitney Zone but I was not camping there, she insisted that I was already in the Whitney Zone at Timberline Lake and that it covers down to Crabtree Meadows (not true), although I had stayed that night at Wallace Creek the simple fact that I had an over night permit and was passing through the Whitney Zone made her take down my information and claim I would probably get a fine in the mail, well it never came of course


Hard to tell what happened there, but there may have been a misunderstanding. In the area you were headed to (presumably above timberline -- the ecozone, not the lake...) you're required to have a canister because it's not possible to hang or secure your food correctly. There's no boxes up there either. Technically, that's true of Whitney summit, but I'm not sure what I'd do if I were the ranger. But I absolutely would enforce that for Guitar to the switchbacks. Bears go everywhere... .

And the "well I have an Ursack" wouldn't cut it either (for me -- some of you may note that I'm getting kinda testy about this willful ignoring of our well-reasoned regulations). Ursack is being kind of misleading here. You can have the thing, but in Sequoia Kings park, you can't use it any differently than a nylon bag. It has to be either hung correctly; in a bear box or, where canisters are required, also in a bear box. You can't leave it out on the ground as you would a canister. This just in from the head biologist at Sequoia Kings:

Quote:
It cannot be used for food-storage in any of the canister required areas including Charlotte to Forester. It could only be used as a food bag where people counter-balance or in a locker. It is not authorized for food storage.


Here's the thing that keeps getting lost in these tangent discussions. The idea is to keep food away from bears so they are off doing their nuts & berries & bugs thing; and, not incidentally, bothering hikers all night long. Canisters and bear boxes have had a dramatic -- and I mean dramatic -- positive effect on that. Throughout the Sequoia Kings backcountry, there are now only a small number of bear/food incidents where there used to be over 1,000, when compared to only 10 years ago. Twenty years ago, maybe as many as 1/3 of campers in the Charlotte/Kearsarge, Forester area would lose their food to bears.

Ignoring it or blowing off the local ranger may work in the sense that you might not get your food taken that night, but it's because everyone else has and is obeying the rules and the bears or off doing their bear thing.

George


None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1836 01/24/10 12:15 AM
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When it came to that confrontation with a ranger I still have to defend the fact that I stayed the night at Wallace Creek which is in the tree line and also has bear boxes which I used, I then was hiking out of the wilderness, so the argument was a bit asinine.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
RoguePhotonic #1840 01/24/10 12:43 PM
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So, not clear here. Were you planning to go all the way out when you ran into the ranger or camp somewhere beyond Timberline lake? Also, if your trip originated from either Sequoia Kings or Inyo trailhead, you have to have a canister. Technically, you're not allowed to use the boxes unless you're a through hiker (e.g. doing the JMT or PCT). The idea of the latter requirement is that the boxes just got too full, people started hanging food and would then lose it.

I read your original post to mean you were heading up to Guitar or somewhere around there for the night ... .

thanks,

g.

Last edited by George; 01/24/10 12:46 PM.

None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1841 01/24/10 02:18 PM
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Well to be clear it was last September I hiked the High Sierra Trail in 4 days and wanted to go light weight so I didn't bring a bear barrel, instead I choose locations to camp that had bear boxes, Hamilton Lake, kern Hot Springs, Wallace Creek, then yes I was passing through that location on my way out.

Unless new laws have been passed which I heard they were trying it's not required to have a bear barrel entering those trail heads, other then Yosemite which is mandatory for the whole park the rest of the Sierra other then designated locations they aren't mandatory, this one ranger didn't seem happy to tell me that when I asked once at Lodgepole if they weren't required, I even ran across some hikers that were annoyed when they found out they had been falsely told they were required.

I honestly don't know about the allowed uses of boxes being only for through hikers, this of course only applying to the locations along the PCT, but as I understand from talking to various rangers that the primary push for making canisters mandatory in Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks is because of pressure from groups concerned with minor violations in the wilderness laws, they are arguing that the bear boxes are man made structures and the law does not allow any man made structures in the wilderness so they are debating on removing all bear boxes, almost all the rangers I have talked to agree that it would be a major under taking to remove all those boxes and it's a major waste of resources.

I have to admit that while I understand the logic of a bear not playing with your food at all it's a new one for me, it seems to go against the very idea that you just place your bear barrel on the ground away from your camp, it seems that we shouldn't hold that idea against the Ursack but place it under the same responsibility category as counter balance, your responsible for placing or securing your Ursack in a way that a bear cannot carry it away, after all this is the only thing that holds it back.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
RoguePhotonic #1856 01/25/10 05:30 PM
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OK. When in doubt, read the regulations. After doing that, they're not tremendously obvious: The "can't use a bear box" regulation applies only to the three areas in Sequoia Kings where hanging is prohibited (Dusy Basin, Mather/Rae/Kearsarge/Bubbs/Forester & Rock Creek). And what the reg says is you must have enough canisters to carry all your food & garbage.

I have to admit, it's not a reg I get hugely excited about in the sense that I expect a party on their first night or two to fit everything in their canister. BUT, I would absolutely expect those folks to be at a box when they can't fit all food to be in their canisters AND I'd expect them to have a reasonable number of canisters for their party size. That's just me. Other rangers may be more exacting in their interpretation... .

Through hikers on the PCT or JMT are not actually required to have a canister in those areas but ARE required to camp at a box.

Quote:
I have to admit that while I understand the logic of a bear not playing with your food at all it's a new one for me, it seems to go against the very idea that you just place your bear barrel on the ground away from your camp, it seems that we shouldn't hold that idea against the Ursack but place it under the same responsibility category as counter balance, your responsible for placing or securing your Ursack in a way that a bear cannot carry it away, after all this is the only thing that holds it back.


I dunno if I'm following you here. Again, it's not the bears "playing" with anything that's the problem, it's that their natural behavior is changed by us not securing our food in a bomb-proof way. The Ursacks have been shown to not be bomb proof. Bears get a "food reward" -- either a tiny taste or enough positive reinforcement to keep trying to get into the sack. So you can use it but, as noted, only to counter balance like a regular stuff sack -- not leave out on the ground because, like a stuff sack, it doesn't work... .

That's not true of canisters. For the most part, bears have given up even trying to get into most of them, though they get tested occasionally. Note the failure of a previous model screw top of the Bear Vault a few years ago. A single bear at Bubbs Creek figured it out forcing that model to be banned there until the company solved the top failure.

Quote:
but as I understand from talking to various rangers that the primary push for making canisters mandatory in Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks is because of pressure from groups concerned with minor violations in the wilderness laws


Well, kinda, sorta... . The objection to the boxes is that they're an aesthetic intrusion in a Wilderness setting. However, the Wilderness Act does allow structures and other intrusions to the extent that it can be shown to preserve wilderness values. I would argue (and I'm not at a management level to do so...) that keeping bears wild directly benefits wilderness values, even at the expense of the intrusion of a box.The boxes do that and I think it can also be shown that if they're taken out, bear/human interactions would increase, especially near trailheads. I don't see box removal as an immediate concern, though maybe someday... .

Whew!

We can quibble forever in a scholarly debate on what is and is not allowed and where. But again! It's all about keeping food away from bears. If a hiker is seen to be gaming the system, then your cheerful public servants are going to give you an earful (in a polite and respectful way, of course).

g.

Last edited by George; 01/25/10 05:31 PM.

None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
George #1858 01/25/10 05:47 PM
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I appreciate your continued and thoughtful participation in this topic, George.

I have a question about the Ursack and bears getting their food reward. Do you know whether it was due to user error with tying the bag improperly, or are there some cases where a persistent bear can actually get into the bag regardless of how it is secured?

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1864 01/26/10 12:12 AM
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Steve,
Bears can actually get teeth through the sack and as George mentioned they get a tiny taste as a reward. A hiking buddy tried one when we did the JMT a couple years ago and the first night out the sack got hit AND the bear nearly chewed through the cord. It was properly loaded and the top was properly tied off.


Mike
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Mike Condron #1865 01/26/10 12:44 AM
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Oh! shocked So much for that idea... frown

Thanks, Mike.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1869 01/26/10 01:11 AM
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Quote:
OK. When in doubt, read the regulations. After doing that, they're not tremendously obvious: The "can't use a bear box" regulation applies only to the three areas in Sequoia Kings where hanging is prohibited (Dusy Basin, Mather/Rae/Kearsarge/Bubbs/Forester & Rock Creek). And what the reg says is you must have enough canisters to carry all your food & garbage.


Makes sense, if your required to have a barrel then you shouldn't need the box and it can be saved for those who need it.

I find it interesting that thru hikers aren't required to have a barrel, the ranger that was giving me an ear full was going on about if you can't make it then you will not have one which is perfectly sound logic, same applies when I told her I did not have a wag bag and she got upset again wink I knew I would be ok and wouldn't need it but she used the same idea that "you never know" and made me take hers, I still have it here at home. grin

Quote:
I dunno if I'm following you here. Again, it's not the bears "playing" with anything that's the problem, it's that their natural behavior is changed by us not securing our food in a bomb-proof way. The Ursacks have been shown to not be bomb proof. Bears get a "food reward" -- either a tiny taste or enough positive reinforcement to keep trying to get into the sack. So you can use it but, as noted, only to counter balance like a regular stuff sack -- not leave out on the ground because, like a stuff sack, it doesn't work... .


Ok I was more under the impression that the Ursack was bomb proof and it's only down fall was that the bears can carry it away.

Quote:
Well, kinda, sorta... . The objection to the boxes is that they're an aesthetic intrusion in a Wilderness setting


Lol I think people get worked up over such insignificant things, I have never looked at a bear box and thought it's ugly or distracting from the wilderness around me, it's like while doing trail maintenance we try to get the cut brush out of sight but I have never walked along on a trail and thought a pile of dead brush was distracting, I mean there is dead fall all over the place, it's a part of the forest!

Quote:
We can quibble forever in a scholarly debate on what is and is not allowed and where. But again! It's all about keeping food away from bears.


Lol I don't want to quibble I want to learn, I like to know exactly what the law is in all things in life, but I admit the rest is an endless debate on what methods should and shouldn't be used.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Steve C #1870 01/26/10 01:20 AM
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First, George, thanks as always for your experienced point of view. One thinks one knows this stuff, and then you learn something new, which I have.

There are frequent pronouncements from people on what is, and is not allowed, and where.....which is sometimes untrue, and sometimes out of date.

I've had good luck with my Ursacks, which are the original yellow ones. However, I'm careful.

I can't quite understand the counterbalancing of a Ursack, as I am fairly convinced that counterbalancing doesn't work (I AM convinced that I will see it done right before I die--I haven't so far). It would seem to tie the Ursack to the balancing. I can't fathom it, but if one could counterbalance a bear can, I think it would make the bears interested again.

Much more important to me, is what happened to SIBBG? Budget cut or lawsuit?

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Ken #1920 01/28/10 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
I can't quite understand the counterbalancing of a Ursack, as I am fairly convinced that counterbalancing doesn't work (I AM convinced that I will see it done right before I die--I haven't so far).


so for the 7 JMT hikes I did before canisters were even invented, I was just imagining my food was safe, and the bears that tried to get it were just the stupid kind?

I never lost any food when hanging (nylong bags, no Ursack) and I feel if you find the right tree, it's a good method. However, I am sold on the canisters. Camp anywhere and sleep soundly.

Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Fishmonger #1946 01/29/10 08:58 PM
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Quote:

so for the 7 JMT hikes I did before canisters were even invented, I was just imagining my food was safe, and the bears that tried to get it were just the stupid kind?


Actually, probably that was true. There's likely some relationship of bear & hiker density. At a certain point, bears figure it out pretty quick. I was a major fan of counterbalancing for a number of years. And, not to be immodest, but may be a co-inventor of it. Mead & Tina Hargis and I developed the method in the early 70s in Little Yosemite Valley when we were rangers there. (A biologist doing her PhD credits us with it anyway). We started trying that after bears figure out how to chew through the ropes when they were just tied off to a tree.

We also tried cables on pulleys, static cables, old steel outhouses and electric fences. It's a bummer we didn't have more old steel outhouses, but they might have worked. Bears figured everything else out, though they at least reduced the chances of losing food.

Once you're in an area where bears are habituated to people's food, they'll just keep trying to get it. No matter how well it's counterbalanced, it's got a high potential of failure because:

1) a bear will get out on the limb and grab it, or
2) a bear will shake the branch enough that one side will work up and the other down where a bear can grab it, or
3) a bear will just spend the whole night chewing through the branch. I've seen them go through 4" branches.

In areas where there's few bears &/or hikers, you're probably OK for awhile (that is, over several trips). Once a bear starts to try, it usually takes them only 3 to 6 tries to become successful enough to get food a majority of the time.

As with anything else, if there's enough natural food around and not competition from other bears, they're more likely to stick with that. When there's more bears, &/or food is scarcer, you become the best game in town.

In Little Yosemite in the 70s, we had around 3 to 6 bears per night in a couple of square miles. An incredibly fast learning curve to watch. The same would be true in the Woods/Bubbs/Kearsarge area by the 80s; more than occasionally Crabtree/Rock Creek and other areas like Pear & Bearpaw.

Really amazing animals.

g.


None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
George #1949 01/29/10 10:20 PM
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They figured out how to get in and out of the big dumpsters a few years ago after what? 50-60 years of them being in service? The dumpsters now have the latch clip on the access door. They'll figure that out one of these decades.

During the first few years of using Garcia canisters we would still have bears clomping through our camping area looking up into the trees. They would pay no attention to us. Laurel Lake area especially.


Mike
Re: Ursack Bear Proof bag
Fishmonger #1964 01/30/10 02:24 PM
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Fish, I think the issue is that things are different now. In talks I give on backpacking, I often hear stories such as yours, but they typically are "back then" types of stories.

Bears are SMART animals, and we humans have trained them well. There are some places where it becomes the evening entertainment: Watching stubborn humans hanging their food (poorly, generally), and watching the bears retrieve the food. George mentioned some good watching areas, and I'd add the head of Lyell Canyon to that, with the big dead tree that every one uses.

I remember the last time I was there, hiking with folks that were hangers. They hung their food, then retreated to their tent, farther away than mine. The bears came several hours later, and I was out like a light. The guy had an air-horn I didn't know about, to scare the bears away (which they ignored), and he ran up even with my tent, and blasted away. BLAST! I thought that I was on the Titanic, hitting the iceberg! BLAST!!! BLAST!! BLAST!! What the hell was that????!?!?!


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