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First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
#38910 07/23/14 07:41 PM
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This was I believe your pretty "run of the mill" first timer day hike so I will keep it brief and only highlight a couple notable things I might have done slightly differently.

I started from a fitness level of right about zero 6 months before our date. And that is a 48 year old at zero.

My training basically consisted of a walk two times a week from my front door (1.9 miles) to the stairs (167 steps up an easement in my development) and weight lifting three times a week.

For the last month I switched up to stairs three times a week and weights twice.

During all this time I usually hiked 5 to 9 miles on the weekend at low elevations.

Three weeks prior I hiked about 6 miles near Cannell Pass/Big Meadow to Siretta Peak. I brought my boys with me who were totally unprepared for hiking at altitude and flamed out very early. That put to rest any ideas of them hiking Whitney with me which is exactly what I wanted for my first attempt.


Not quite Siretta Peak but close


View of Big Meadow from Siretta Peak


The highlight of that hike was my younger son (who was on point at the time) happening upon the largest (brown in color) black bear I have seen and all of us getting to within 15 feet of it before it noticed us and ran off. Even though I grew up in the Sierras that is by far the closest I have ever been to bear in the wild.

When I take the boys hiking, I like to randomly send my wife a text of a pic like this one. The boys have fun with it too. I usually can't read her reply to them.


The Saturday before the hike I met my brother in Kern Valley and we camped at Troy Meadow Campground. That same day we hiked from Blackrock trailhead through Casa Vieja meadow and made a loop above and back. About 12 miles in total topping out at around 9,000 ft.

Cabin at Casa Vieja Meadow.


On Sunday I left Troy Meadow and headed off alone across nine mile canyon to the 395. I came into Lone Pine about 20 minutes after the start of the World Cup final. found Jakes Saloon and watched the game before heading up to Horseshoe Meadow.



Camped alone Sunday Night at Horseshoe. Met a group of hikers in the camp next to me who were doing a two day ascent but summiting on the same day I was. Monday morning they all took off pretty early for a hike toward Cottonwood lakes. Just about the time I got myself prepared to hike they all returned. I asked them if they made it to the lakes and they said they only went as far as the first stream crossing and that there was no way they could make it to the lakes on a warm up hike since they were about 6 miles in.

Horseshoe Meadow


I agreed and told them I would probably turn back at the first creek crossing as well.

But man, when I got there I knew I could not have gone much further than a mile. I had set my turnaround time for noon so decided I would just keep going until noon and turn around at that time, no matter where I was.

About 45 minutes later I caught up to a backpacker and asked him where he was heading. He said Cottonwood Lakes. I asked him how far that was from here and he said about 4 - 4.5 miles.

OK so now I thought, I can hike until 1:00 and see where I am then. even at 1:00 I can still get back to camp with plenty of daylight left. At 1:00 I was farther down the trail, but essentially nowhere. so I thought. 2:00 is as good a time to turnaround as any. Pretty close to 2:00 I emerged into a flat area where the trail forked and two groups of hikers were resting. One group had a map so I asked them if I could take a look and see how close I was to cottonwood lakes. Turns out I was pretty much there! about a mile later I was standing right on the shore of Cottonwood lake #3 without another soul in sight. It was awesome. even if I did not summit Whitney the trip was already worth it by virtue of this one experience alone.

Proof I made it to the shore of Cottonwood Lake #3


Just as I began to head back I felt raindrops hitting. I thought I had screwed up but they stopped within a few minutes. It didn't help that at about the same time a fighter jet passed overhead which at first I thought was thunder.

Rain drops at Cottonwood Lakes


I passed my backpacker on the way back only a hundred feet or so from the crest of the trail before Cottonwood lakes. He was looking pretty beat so I was able to return the favor and let him know he was mere steps away from his destination and a well deserved rest!

Tuesday I moved camp over to Whitney Portal and waited for the rest of my group to arrive. I fell asleep in my tent and woke up after the agreed upon meeting time. In a panic I jumped in my car and headed down to Lone Pine. As soon as I could receive texts I got an hour old text stating they were at the Visitors center which is where I drove to. From the visitors center parking lot I was able to reach one of my group only to find out they were on the trail in the middle of a warm up hike already.... DAMN! back up to Whitney Portal.

Met my group right at the trail head and we all just sort of hung around and tried to sleep. Some in their cars, some in folding chairs at my site. Me in my tent.

At some point I fell asleep and woke up right about 11:30 PM (we had scheduled midnight as our start time). I went over the contents of my pack one more time and put on my hiking clothes. At about 11:45 one of my group comes to my tent and asks if I am ready. "I say I will be ready at midnight, are you guys ready now?"... "Yeah we are all waiting for you at the trailhead!" Dang! so I rush the next couple of minutes and start heading to the trailhead. Guess what the price of the rush was? About an hour into the hike I realized that I had left my phone in my tent. So no GPS, and no camera. Oh well.

We start out at about 11:50PM. For the most part it was a pretty uneventful hike. One of our group was a last minute add. A gentlemen who had done a lot of hiking around the world but someone I have never met. About 4 miles in he decided this was not a one day hike and turned around. That left us with five.

This image needs no caption. everyone knows what it is.


I do not think I have any original observations except for perhaps this. I enjoyed the switchbacks. By that time I grown to hate rocks, and most of all steps made of rocks. The switchbacks while monotonous are pretty much flat ground and dirt. I found it a welcome break for awhile. Although I had no idea what was waiting for us after trail crest.



After trail crest we all had this idea that we were pretty much a hop skip and a jump from the summit. We were all first timers for the most part and from our collective reading that is just the impression we had gotten. As a matter of fact when you get to trail crest you really are only just getting started on the toughest part of the climb.

To make matters worse, the second last minute add who I was right behind through this section started walking rather erratically. He seemed to be stepping without regard for the terrain, literally tripping over his own feet and exhibiting this awesome knack for planting his pole in the exact wrong place at nearly every opportunity.

I told the group I needed to rest, and when we sat down I started asking him questions like when was the last time he drank water or ate something. It was immediately obvious to everyone he was slurring his words like a man who had just downed a six pack. What was worse was we had just gotten through all the most technical parts of the trail and could see the rest of the trail up to the summit was fairly easy in comparison.

What to do? This was probably the wrong decision but we figured we would have to get him through the tough parts in this condition whether we turned around right then and there, or whether we summited. For his part he was dead set on summiting regardless and even though he really had no say in the decision at the point it did make ours easier. So we let him rest until he got some semblance of his senses back and onward we forged.

From that point on, all the way to the summit it was go for a few minutes.. stop... and wait. By the time he got to us he would already be tripping and slurring again so we would again sit down, make him drink, make him eat and then proceed once he he got some rest.

In the end we all made it, including the dude with the AMS. he got a much needed long rest at the summit while we milled about, took pictures and signed the guestbook. It was about 10:00 AM and around that time someone said that thunderstorms were expected to roll in around 2:00 PM. This would not have been a problem but we had no idea how long it was going to take to get our casualty back to trail crest. So we left right away.

The Obligatory.


Interesting aside, just as we began our descent I ran across one of the group from Horseshoe Meadow on the final part of his ascent, and NOT looking happy. He did not even recognize me but I made sure to remind him of who I was and give him a hearty high five to congratulate him on making it. He just looked shell shocked. I took a slight perverse pleasure in that since he had told me I was crazy for attempting a day hike and that if I DID make it to the top we he would see me on my way up while he was headed down. I am sure the irony was lost on him at that moment. But maybe it hit him later... lol. Im any event I savored it for a few moments.

Waiting at a difficult stretch for AMS guy and having a bit of power bar.


Anyway, we got the AMS guy through, and it was worse than getting him up. but he made it. as we worked our way down the switchbacks he became better and better mentally, but no faster.

At the bottom of the switchbacks we decided that three of us should just go on ahead and the friend of the AMS guy would wait for him and walk down with him. The John Likely situation kept going through my head but we were a long way from dark, he had made it through the switchbacks and he had one friend to watch over him. I felt a little better about that.

About an hour after we got back to portal, AMS guys friend shows up... no AMS guy??? he tells us that he had said he was ok and to go on ahead so he left him. Now I felt like crap again. I really wanted to just go home and get some sleep and I had no idea if it would 2 or 6 hours before this guy showed up. So I went and took my camp down and packed my car. I then drove up to the store just in time to see AMS guy emerge from the trailhead. I jumped out and give him a hug even though I had never met him prior to that day. But I was THAT glad to see him. And then I went home.

All in all I have to say the hike was not as a hard as I thought it would be. I was constantly in fear that I had not trained enough, or that I simply did not have enough time to get fit enough, or that altitude would get to me.

This is not in any way shape or form to say it was easy. As a matter of fact it is by far the hardest hike I have ever made. Other hikes are not even in the same league and whenever I have been asked since I have only described it as "Pure torture with a fabulous view" which is what it is.

I already know that for the next few years I will probably summit Whitney at least once a year via different routes. I want to climb the chute in the snow. I want to take the Mountaineers Route. and I want to Take a multi day trip from Horseshoe meadow. Not sure which to do first or in what order, but I have a year to think about it.

I have a bunch of pics too. I will try and upload them later should anyone be interested.

Last edited by gmaki; 07/23/14 09:58 PM.
Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38916 07/23/14 08:57 PM
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Multi-day routes ... don't forget Onion Valley to Whitney ... and the High Sierra Trail ... wow!

Was AMS guy walking drunk (ataxic)? Slurred speech and ataxic walk raise the possibility of High Altitude Cerebral Edema (HACE). May still want to talk with a personal MD, maybe even get CT scan... Harvey, Ken?

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Akichow #38917 07/23/14 09:26 PM
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Oh man. Just did some Googling of Ataxia and I would have to say the odds are pretty good he was Ataxic.

Obviously I am not qualified to diagnose such a thing, I had never even heard of it until just now. I should also point out that even prior to his slurred speech he seemed to me to not really understand how to place his feet while walking.

So it is hard to say or even identify just when things got worse for him. However I am pretty certain that at the time I noticed it (above 12,000) he was definitely walking like a drunk, had a wide stance, and slurred his speech when we talked to him.

Last edited by gmaki; 07/23/14 09:29 PM.
Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38918 07/23/14 09:45 PM
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Really may be advisable for him to see an MD for follow up. If it was HACE, he may have dodged a bullet. With HACE, can go into a coma and die within 24-48 hours.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38921 07/23/14 09:55 PM
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Well done gmaki! And thanks again for your intel on the Ravine Campground. Even though you were worried about your pre-hike conditioning, it sounds like you got up and down the mountain just fine.

That's scary to think the guy in your group who was struggling may have had something seriously wrong. We all suffer from summit fever to some extent, and the desire to just gut it out for a few more miles can be strong. If I'd been in your group, I probably would have done the same thing you guys did. In fact if you saw my trip report, you saw I basically did. Have you heard anything more from this guy or his friend, since the day of your hike?

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Steve Chamberlin #38922 07/23/14 10:11 PM
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I saw your pic from the Ravine and immediately recognized the area. Did you take one of the three sites on the lower road? Those are even more secluded.

I actually took the one closest to the signs but in hindsight I would have preferred the one closest to the road. At least when I broke camp.

And yeah I feel a bit stupid about the AMS guy. I did so much reading and I had heard of HACE, but for whatever reason I thought that was an Everest "death zone" condition and really never considered something like that a possibility on Whitney (nor had I read any accounts of it occurring on Whitney). So my main concern with him was a fall, which was a very real concern.

But I feel kind of guilty that with more study I might have known what was happening and made him descend immediately.

On the other hand, and this seems to be the same circle we always think ourselves into in this situation, I didn't know the guy. Had never met him. He simply showed up with is friend unexpectedly. That shouldn't make me automatically responsible for him.

Still, the last thing I want to do is have any part in someone being seriously injured or killed, whether I know them or not,

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38923 07/23/14 10:17 PM
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That's what is great about this bulletin board. Other folks will read your first timer report and learn about this condition and maybe recognize it if they see it themselves. Might even save a life.

I have not seen HACE myself on Whitney, though it does occur. I have seen very serious AMS that could have easily progressed to HACE. In fact, every single summit climb, I have run into people with very bad AMS who were making bad decisions (e.g., to continue on). Ignoring AMS symptoms is how you get HACE....

I did see HACE on Kilimanjaro, including a guy who was being led down the summit by two porters because he could not walk on his own. His legs just kept going in all directions and then buckling under him. The porters had to support his weight and direct his movement.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Akichow #38924 07/23/14 10:27 PM
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Yes. HACE symptoms should definitely be included along with AMS,

I was totally focused on AMS, not just for those around me but for me as well. I was doing word problems and things like that in my head.

The only odd thing about our companion was that he never complained about any AMS symptoms. His gait was my first indication that something was wrong. But it was very obvious at that point.

There was also the fact that he improved very quickly with rest. He was nearly normal by the time we left the summit since he gotten nearly 30 solid minutes of rest. But it took a very short time for the symptoms to return.

He must have had AMS prior to HACE and just kept quiet about it. The guy was a fireman and I think he had a bit of ego working against him. He was never able to keep up with us even right from the beginning so I have a feeling he was pushing way too hard and not wanting to voice any complaints.

At one point in the middle of us talking to him he said "Why is this kicking my ass so hard but not affecting you guys?" so he was really feeling excluded I guess.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38936 07/24/14 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: gmaki
He must have had AMS prior to HACE and just kept quiet about it.

This is a common problem. The HACE victim either (1) does not recognize the AMS symptoms, (2) denies/ignores the AMS symptoms, or (3) there is rapid onset HACE without typical AMS symptoms. All these can happen at Whitney altitudes although 'by the book' HACE at moderate altitude is rare and is usually associated with longer exposure.

Here are the Lake Louise definitions about HACE
Can be considered "end stage" or severe AMS. In the setting of a recent gain in altitude, either:

- the presence of a change in mental status and/or ataxia in a person with AMS
- or, the presence of both mental status changes and ataxia in a person without AMS

see Lake Louise definitions

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Harvey Lankford #38937 07/24/14 05:26 AM
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Relevant that slurring speech is described before/concurrent with ataxia in trip report?

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
gmaki #38942 07/24/14 07:33 AM
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I have NEVER seen that many people in Jake's Saloon...

B-double E-double R-U-N --- BEER RUN!


Journey well...
Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Akichow #38947 07/24/14 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: Akichow
Relevant that slurring speech is described before/concurrent with ataxia in trip report?


K, the poster might not want his nice trip turned into a medical anaylsis ,but

"To make matters worse, the second last minute add who I was right behind through this section started walking rather erratically. He seemed to be stepping without regard for the terrain, literally tripping over his own feet and exhibiting this awesome knack for planting his pole in the exact wrong place at nearly every opportunity.

I told the group I needed to rest, and when we sat down I started asking him questions like when was the last time he drank water or ate something. It was immediately obvious to everyone he was slurring his words like a man who had just downed a six pack.
"

The sequence of altered mental status and ataxia (stumbling, uncoordinated gait) does not matter. And/or by definition, although, unknown to us, a "premorbid" non-altitude condition could be a factor.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Harvey Lankford #38949 07/24/14 08:42 AM
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I don't mind the medical aspect of the discussion. I am learning a lot and I hope other readers might learn as well prior to running into the same condition.

Had a I known a bit more I am sure I would have abandoned my hopes for the summit and immediately taken him to lower elevation. I feel grateful that he came out OK but I feel that my ignorance nearly contributed to something much worse than what he experienced.

I'm not really blaming myself or anything like that. I would simply like to know all I can about these symptoms and be better equipped to react to them, whether they occur in myself, someone in my group or even someone I encounter along the trail.

Both my boys have expressed an interest in summiting one day, and I do not want to even think about guiding them up the mountain until I feel I am capable of taking care of not only myself, but them as well.

I've learned from this hike that I am really not knowledgeable enough at this point to take that on.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Harvey Lankford #38960 07/24/14 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
The sequence of altered mental status and ataxia (stumbling, uncoordinated gait) does not matter. And/or by definition, although, unknown to us, a "premorbid" non-altitude condition could be a factor.

Just to follow-up on my own comments here....

That fact that he was able to continue on up, even with assistance, and return, suggests it was not HACE ( even though the criteria were met) but rather a premorbid condition.

Morbid does not mean the same as mortal. Premorbid just means he brought an illness or condition into the setting and was aggravated there (high altitude). I wonder if a premorbid neurological condition was in play. A common one might have been the use of sleeping pills, alcohol or other agents the day or night before.

Re: First timer Whitney Day Hike (7-16-14)
Harvey Lankford #39034 07/26/14 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
The sequence of altered mental status and ataxia (stumbling, uncoordinated gait) does not matter. And/or by definition, although, unknown to us, a "premorbid" non-altitude condition could be a factor.

Just to follow-up on my own comments here....

That fact that he was able to continue on up, even with assistance, and return, suggests it was not HACE ( even though the criteria were met) but rather a premorbid condition.

Morbid does not mean the same as mortal. Premorbid just means he brought an illness or condition into the setting and was aggravated there (high altitude). I wonder if a premorbid neurological condition was in play. A common one might have been the use of sleeping pills, alcohol or other agents the day or night before.


I think the fact is we will never know for sure. All I can share is my observations. And my observations were made after trail crest where my own thinking was somewhat impaired as well. I did not have any problematic AMS symptoms but I did have slight shortness of breath and a slight "airy" feeling in my thinking. So my observations probably weren't as sharp as they might have been at lower elevation. Add to the fact that when I made them, HACE was not even on my radar. Although I have come across the term before, it never came up in connection with Whitney during my preparation. I think when I read "Into Thin Air" there was some reference to it.

One of the conclusions I have come to is that prior to the hike I had in my mind equated hiking safety with the SCUBA "Buddy system" and in retrospect I think that is the wrong way to look at it. When I obtained my SCUBA certification the most important thing I learned is that you always dive with a buddy and that you NEVER leave your buddy. Not only was that driven home during my class, but since then I know two people who have died SCUBA diving and in both cases the person was separated from their buddy. The concept is so deeply ingrained in my thinking I actually changed dentists after striking up a conversation with mine about SCUBA diving. He rather nonchalantly told me that his wife was his normal diving "buddy" but that she was slow and that he would normally leave her behind after several minutes during a dive. I figured if he was that careless with his own wife's (and his own) life, I did not want him working on my teeth with sharp instruments.

But after hiking Whitney with my group I realize now that simply does not apply. In SCUBA you usually know your buddy well, and you both have the same training and same ideas about the buddy system. Also if your buddy gets in trouble and needs to ascend during a dive the cost of ascending with him is much less than the cost of descending during a climb. In other words if you abort a dive, you can solve the problem and then resume the dive. This is unlike the desire to summit where descending for your "buddy's" safety means the summit quest has ended.

You also have the added group dynamic. Not just a single buddy who you know and presumably trust. We did not pair off at the beginning of the hike, so it felt like we were all equally responsible (or not responsible) for every member of our group. That makes the decision much more complex when it is time to make it. I kept going around and around in a feedback loop of thinking that this particular guy was not my responsibility since I did not even know him prior to that day, and that the person who invited him and actually knew him should be the responsible party to then coming around to thinking that regardless of that if something was to happen I would STILL feel some amount of responsibility if someone in my group had a serious problem. And if that became a fatality I would carry it for the rest of my life. My next sequence of thoughts was invariably that I was being overly dramatic about the whole thing. Then I would realize that is probably exactly what the John Likely party felt when they left him behind (no judgement here, I actually gained some understanding about that situation). And so back to square one I would go.

The OTHER important realization i have come to is the syndrome of a group of hikers of different fitness levels hiking together. It seems to me if hikers of different abilities (or pace) begin a hike together it starts an accordion effect that actually takes the difference in abilities (which may be small) and in a cascading nature, exacerbates them. Because what happens, or at least what happened in our group of 6 was that 4 of us hiked at what we thought was a comfortable pace. But that pace was just a little bit too fast for the other two.

So what happened? Well we would slowly build a gap between the front four and the back two and allow that gap to expand until we were in danger of losing contact with two stragglers. At that point we would rest while they caught up.

Meanwhile I imagine the two stragglers started out at what they thought was a comfortable pace for their abilities, but then found that after a period of time they were falling behind. I imagine at that point they would have attempted to increase their pace, to the fastest pace they could maintain. Which was probably too fast for comfort. Yet they still steadily fell behind.

When we rested they had to continue hiking and the fact that they we were resting once they saw us would have probably been an ego hit to them as well, only making them push a little harder. And what happens when they catch up to us at our resting location? Well, for one the lead group is by now well rested and ready to go. But the trailing group is in need of an EVEN longer rest having pushed themselves to their limit to reach us and not "waste our time".

Now as bad as it sounds I am sure we showed signs of being ready to go and wanted to take off as soon as the trailing group caught up. Usually they'd say something like "you guys go on ahead and we'll catch you at the next rest" and the lead group would leave with the same thought. Believing they were being polite and helpful.

But what is really happening? Now the lead group is progressing, well rested, at the same fast pace or maybe even slightly faster while the trailing group is sitting still at rest. They are aware of that too and as a result are going to start hiking again at the earliest possible moment, and probably not after they have gotten an adequate rest. If you think about it, they should actually rest even LONGER than the lead group had waited for them because they are obviously even more fatigued having pushed harder. But if they did, by the time they set off again the lead group would be even farther ahead of them than they were before they rested in the first place so they would either have to stop again to maintain contact, or increase to the gap to the point where contact was no longer maintained, effectively "leaving the trailing group behind".

This cycle repeats up the hill in my opinion until the trailing group just hits the wall (like one of our trailers who gave up after 4 miles) or until they run into other problem like the remaining member of the trailing group who AMS and possible HACE.

The sad irony here is that his slowness HELPED me (and the rest of the front four) and may have even contributed to my lack of AMS symptoms. Since I spent so much time waiting for him I was always well rested. And when I was moving I had no problem moving at a pace I found comfortable, knowing that even at that pace I was leaving the other guy behind and thus would soon be sitting and waiting again.

Had it not been for him and it was just the four of us in the faster paced group I have no doubt the process would have come into play between the four of us and separated us into faster and slower individuals/groups, and had I found my pace slower than one of my fitter companions I would have now been in the position of pushing myself too hard, and getting too little rest.

There must be an answer to this. Maybe the answer is better screening of your hiking partners.


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