A significant quote about Garry Oye, former chief ranger of Inyo National Forest:
Quote:
Garry Oye, Chief of the NPS Wilderness and Stewardship Division, gave a forceful and persuasive presentation on his management conclusions concerning waste management on Mt. Whitney and his implementation of Carry Out on a this popular peak. Mr. Oye was quick to acknowledge compliance difficulties, since such programs require a very large attitude shift among users. He then pointed out that knowledge and education were crucial parts of a successful program.
Edit July, 2013: Unfortunately the AAC website no longer carries those articles, and the WAG bag situation has worsened in the Mt Whitney area with reduced ranger presence. It seems the rangers have been personally carrying out abandoned used WAG bags in the past, and with fewer rangers on the trail, the problem has increased. One hiker reported seeing about 50 abandoned bags along the trail this summer on one hike.
Hmmm...in pre-Oye times, the good old days, I don't recall seeing an assortment of bags filled with hazardous waste along the trail. The last time I counted a dozen between just below Lower Trail Crest to Whitney Portal.
Hmmm...in pre-Oye times, the good old days, I don't recall seeing an assortment of bags filled with hazardous waste along the trail. The last time I counted a dozen between just below Lower Trail Crest to Whitney Portal.
One of those trade-off things. You probably also remember the "solar" outhouse at Trail Camp that you could literally smell 1/4 mile away and that usually had barrels of human waste stored outside until such time as it could be packed out. Same with the Whitney toilet -- a garbage can with holes in it to drain the liquids and which had to be removed by helicopter twice a year.
There are really no good solutions for the number of people that use the Whitney corridor. The wag bags seem to be working OK -- a surprise to me. I didn't think compliance would be so high though obviously some people are just dumping them on the trail and under rocks (not happening as much on the NPS side).
I suspect it doesn't happen in the park because people dig hole, even in The Whitney Zone.
My guess is for every visible WAG bag along the MMWT there are ten others under rocks or behind bushes. To me, this is failed policy...along with being disgusting.
The FS is relying on the citizenry to clean up this mess. As Mr. Oye said to me, his people aren't paid or trained to handle hazardous waste.
We all see the policy and know it doesn't work perfect, but in my opinion, when the time comes, "most" hikers use the wag bags. Some from pressure from their friends, some because they know it's the right thing. There certainly are way too many wag bags on the trail. I've seen as few as three and as many as 17 on one hike. The 17 were, as wbtravis pointed out, behind rocks.
Before my first hike of Mt Whitney, I told my buddy that he and his son would have to carry their poop. He said "are you kidding" and said he would just go without pooping and make sure he used the Portal facility before the hike. Well, as Whitney can do, his son actually had diarrhea, but my buddy told his son to use the wag bag. He also used his bag. I'm sure some of it came from KNOWING I told him it was what he was supposed to do. He still goes up with me and has no problem using the bags.
I was hiking with my buddy this weekend, and another friend of ours wants to hike Whitney. I told the guy that on Whitney, you have to carry your poop. He had the same look on his face and same reaction my first buddy had. The hiker who had had such a hard time with the rule (but followed it) on the first hike started telling our other friend how you need to be responsible with your poop on Mt Whitney.
The moral of the story is that a bit of peer pressure helps. I think the visitor center could do a better job of explaining the wag bags too. I know they tell you, but I think it would be helpful to stress how important the rules are, possibly explain mathematically in detail how many poops would be on the mountain if you didn't carry out, citations, etc.
An idea: A hefty deposit on your WAG bag. If you choose to not return it for your deposit, used or not, just leave it somewhere on the trail in sight. Somebody will return it for the hefty deposit. I'm thinking hefty is $50-$75.
An idea: A hefty deposit on your WAG bag. If you choose to not return it for your deposit, used or not, just leave it somewhere on the trail in sight. Somebody will return it for the hefty deposit. I'm thinking hefty is $50-$75.
There are probably many devilish details.
Can you imagine the beauracracy costs trying to implement a program like that; let alone having a manned station for dropoff when you are trying to get back home after already having been awake for 15-25 hours.
An idea: A hefty deposit on your WAG bag. If you choose to not return it for your deposit, used or not, just leave it somewhere on the trail in sight. Somebody will return it for the hefty deposit. I'm thinking hefty is $50-$75.
There are probably many devilish details.
Can you imagine the beauracracy costs trying to implement a program like that; let alone having a manned station for dropoff when you are trying to get back home after already having been awake for 15-25 hours.
I dunno, I'm thinking some enterprising young person might set up shop in the parking lot offering 50% of the deposit in cash and then taking the wag bags en masse to the formal dropoff zone down at the visitor center that only runs during normal business hours.
If the deposit was $40, then the Pooptreneur would make $20 per bag. Just 10 bags would net him $200.
I like the deposit for a deposit idea, but implementation details...
Whitney's summit load on its final flight 2006. They took the load and the toilet that time. There were no WAG bags when we did the MR then, but on return 2010 I was pleased with how simple, easy to use, and well-planned the contents of the bag were.
Here's an idea: new definition of Vitamin I, just for the Whitney Zone: Imodium. Hand it out free at Crabtree and Portal. I don't plan to spend more than 24 hours in the Zone next time I'm there, and I'll bet a significant proportion of Whitney visitors don't either. Even higher % under 48 hours, which might be a reasonable period for a lot of folks.
An idea: A hefty deposit on your WAG bag. If you choose to not return it for your deposit, used or not, just leave it somewhere on the trail in sight. Somebody will return it for the hefty deposit. I'm thinking hefty is $50-$75.
There are probably many devilish details.
who will collect my credit card at Crabtree Meadows when I enter the Whitney zone from the other side?
Right now one in two hikers just walk right past the bin with wag bags sitting there at the JMT intersection...
An idea: A hefty deposit on your WAG bag. If you choose to not return it for your deposit, used or not, just leave it somewhere on the trail in sight. Somebody will return it for the hefty deposit. I'm thinking hefty is $50-$75.
There are probably many devilish details.
who will collect my credit card at Crabtree Meadows when I enter the Whitney zone from the other side?
Right now one in two hikers just walk right past the bin with wag bags sitting there at the JMT intersection...
In management, this is known as "managing for the 1%".
Briefly stated, it is a logic system that has as it's goal, 100% performance. This might be required for a system to make sure that the wrong kidney is not removed in an operation. But for most things in life, the problem solving involved is not needful of a 100% solution. If the current compliance is 75%, then a boost to 95% would be a big, big deal.
The problem is when perfect becomes the enemy of good, and because we can't get that last 5%, we instead will settle for 75%. This kind of logic is just wrong and self-defeating.
On Acongacua, here is the procedure, just for TRASH:
"The checkpoint is right next to it in a tent where every visitor receives a numbered garbage bag that is registered in your permit. When leaving the park you either have to take the bag with you or the pack transportation team has to confirm in writing (a signature in your permit) that the garbage is taken away on the pack animals. Any violation of this rule will be fined with US$ 100."
So you have to carry a wag-bag across the Sierra to exit at Whitney. Price of doing business.
My guess is there is a way to minimize this problem but it is difficult because of the FS/PS thingy. MY guess is their computers are not networked; therefore the Trans-Sierra and JMT are never going to fall into this net. However, most of these folks are going exit the same day they summit spending less time in the Whitney Zone the average MMWT backpacker. My guess is these folks are not the problem anyhow.
The bulk of the bulk of the problem is 185 people who could put permits daily from the Inyo. All that is required is you put $xxx deposit for a serialized WAG bag(s). Upon return you turn in your WAG to get your deposit back.
Of course, this creates its own set of problems. The question is does it minimize the current situation where the forest service expects the citizenry to pick up and carry out the miscreant's hazardous waste.
Exiting Whitney to the west, is it be necessary to pack the full wag bag back to the trail head? Does that make sense to pack it through an area where everyone else is depositing in the ground? Can it just be packed out of the Whitney Zone a certain distance, and responsibly emptied, then pack out the empty?
> and responsibly emptied, then pack out the empty?
That sure seems reasonable to me.
didn't sound reasonable to the ranger I asked. Insisted I was supposed to carry the full bag to VVR where I would first get to a garbage can on my northbound JMT.
I guess there is some sort of chemical stuff in the bag? whatever it is - they probably feel once you re-open it you may just bury the whole plastic thing somewhere because you can't get it shut anymore. I just made sure I didn't have to use it
The problem with some sort of wag bag register is that it would be even more hassle for those that wont use it. You hike in and out without ever needing the bag then you have to go and give it back. And of course there would have to be some kind of nasty drop box that the Rangers would have to fish through and mark off them as returned for people that are going home late.
I once stared at the box of wag bags at the Crabtree Ranger Station junction as I was on my way out to Whitney Portal and decided not to take the bag because I would not need it but only made it a half mile down the trail before a Ranger got really upset that I had not taken one and told me they are mandatory and that I had to take hers out of her pack. Now I am not sure if wagbags actually are mandatory to carry through the Whitney Zone which I doubt but I took it anyway. I think I still have that thing some where.
I think the better solution will come in higher tech bathrooms that can be installed up the mountain. But what that is I don't know. How about when you go it falls into a pit and then is vaporized by solar powered lasers lol.
I think the better solution will come in higher tech bathrooms that can be installed up the mountain. But what that is I don't know. How about when you go it falls into a pit and then is vaporized by solar powered lasers lol.
kids already have the portable version of that technology
My guess is there is a way to minimize this problem but it is difficult because of the FS/PS thingy. MY guess is their computers are not networked; therefore the Trans-Sierra and JMT are never going to fall into this net. However, most of these folks are going exit the same day they summit spending less time in the Whitney Zone the average MMWT backpacker. My guess is these folks are not the problem anyhow.
The bulk of the bulk of the problem is 185 people who could put permits daily from the Inyo. All that is required is you put $xxx deposit for a serialized WAG bag(s). Upon return you turn in your WAG to get your deposit back.
Of course, this creates its own set of problems. The question is does it minimize the current situation where the forest service expects the citizenry to pick up and carry out the miscreant's hazardous waste.
small note: The waste is not generally hazardous to the originator, however it is to anyone else. For example, an HIV-positive person will have the bug in their waste, but cannot contract it, because they already have it. However, to someone else.......
The Whitney wag bags are far better than any others I've seen on other mountains which require them, like Shasta, Rainier, Hood, etc. Having done Whitney multiple times without needing to use the bag, I've accumulated a bit of a stash in my gear bin. I use these spares on trips to other mountains, and sometimes will bring one on a Whitney hike. After all, they're not really "free" - our tax dollars bought them.
Am not clear why some are so resistant about carrying one even if they're "certain" they won't need it (how can anybody be that sure?). After all, an un-used bag weighs almost nothing and takes no virtually no space.
Am not clear why some are so resistant about carrying one even if they're "certain" they won't need it (how can anybody be that sure?). After all, an un-used bag weighs almost nothing and takes no virtually no space.
The reason I was is because I didn't want to be wasteful by taking a bag then never using it. I suppose you can drop it back off some where for others to use but I never had that chance. But yeah, "you never know" has never been so true in these cases.
Am not clear why some are so resistant about carrying one even if they're "certain" they won't need it (how can anybody be that sure?). After all, an un-used bag weighs almost nothing and takes no virtually no space.
The reason I was is because I didn't want to be wasteful by taking a bag then never using it. I suppose you can drop it back off some where for others to use but I never had that chance. But yeah, "you never know" has never been so true in these cases.
I do Whitney twice a year, and one of the items I pack is an unused wag bag from a previous trip. When I pick up my permit and handed a wag bag, I decline it, saying I already have one from a previous trip.
For me, this is one way of not wasting USFS resources.
