Mt Whitney Zone
Posted By: monkie onmy back Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/28/12 05:39 PM
This seemed like a good place to start- is there anyone out there interested in doing a rim to rim hike of the grand canyon? I an avid hiker from So Cal and have logged numerous hours hiking Whitney, San G, Baldy etc. and would like to try the inverted mountain. smile

I went to the Grand Canyon when I was 8 and peered down from the top. At that time my parents were stopped from taking two children under the age of 10 down to the bottom and back up (thank you sane rangers.) Now I actually want to do it.

I am looking to do this sometime in the fall but I am not doing this one alone.

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Edit: More Rim-to-Rim discussion
Grand Canyon, Rim to Rim, Car swap
Grand Canyon Rim to Rim
Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim 5-16-2013
Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/28/12 05:56 PM
What are your plans? South to North, or North to South? You planning on taking a shuttle back to the car on the other side, or are you interested in possibly doing a rim to rim to rim so you can end up where you started?

I am potentially interested - I want to do a rim to rim as my next grand canyon adventure. Last year my brother and I went from the south rim to the bottom, then back up. We took the South Kaibab trail down, spent 1 night at Bright Angel Campground then took the Bright Angel Trail up and spent a night on the way up at Indian Gardens. It was a great trip!
Hi Bryan- thanks for replying! Sounds like you and your brother enjoyed your trip enough to do it again which is promising.

I have not made any plans yet and believe me, I will research it to death once I start. I have a coworker who has done the rim to rim - in one consecutive run. This kind of challenge interests me. Currently I am just starting to look at the options of the trails and (most importantly) the time of the year for trail conditions.

What do you think? Is this crazy talk?
Posted By: Stalin Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/29/12 04:36 AM
After my Whitney hike this year I was researching rim to rim for next year. I have found hitthetrail.com to have loads of useful info on GC hiking. My plan is to hike from north to south, staying the night at Phantom Ranch and exiting via BA trail. PR dorm gets reserved one year in advance and if you are lucky you will get last minute cancellations.

Good luck.

Stalin
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/29/12 05:50 AM
I think "Whitney Fan" here is planning on doing a R-2-R this fall. I am hoping he'll give us some details of his plans.

Part of the planning includes the transportation and lodging. It would be quite advantageous of two groups would work together, with one starting at one side and the other the opposite. Exchange cars before, then exchange keys mid-hike and drive back/meet somewhere afterwards.

I've made several Trans-Sierra day hikes using that method.
Steve- thanks for the great idea about the car key switch! I know that lodging is a problem and was hoping to get around it with the hike through. I will do some due diligence before regarding trails and maybe I can drum up some interest.

Cheers!
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/30/12 05:33 AM
Steve is correct in remembering that I'm planning a rim to rim day hike. It's scheduled for Wednesday, October 3.

I've been procrastinating a little on jumping in on this thread, sort of looking for when I'd have a little time to type things out.

The planning and preparation for the hike are legitimately part of a "trip report", and that's what I can address now, and it will hopefully be informative to others considering this hike.

But -- I'm procrastinating again right now! Hope to have a little more time tomorrow to pitch in!
Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/30/12 06:22 AM
Originally Posted By: monkie onmy back
What do you think? Is this crazy talk?


Nope, I don't think it's crazy talk at all - I've heard of many people doing it this way. Strictly by the numbers, it would actually be very comparable to a Whitney day hike (at lower elevation, of course). Going down the South Kaibab Trail is about 7 miles, and it's 14 miles up the North Kaibab - and about 5500 ft of elevation gain. Total of 21 miles, 5500 ft of gain, and the overall lower elevation should make it a fair bit easier than a Whitney day hike.

That being said, I think it would be a good idea to consider spending a night at the bottom if your schedule allows. We took our time on our trip, and I still wished we had a couple extra nights to play with. When we got to the bottom and started talking to other people, we learned about some really beautiful day hikes from the Phantom Ranch area that I would have liked to have done.
Posted By: sssss Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/30/12 07:14 AM
right now planning for south to north one way via south/north kaibab on 10-01-12, returning to south rim via van shuttle service
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/30/12 07:44 AM
sssss, where will you spend the night after completing the hike, before you can catch the shuttle?
Posted By: sssss Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/30/12 01:37 PM
grand canyon lodge north rim
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/31/12 07:10 AM
OK, as promised, here is some input that will address my upcoming Grand Canyon rim to rim day hike.

Not quite sure where this writing will take me. Just know I want it to be interesting, helpful. Feel free to ask questions, either here or via PM. I'll post in this thread up until the time I actually go on the hike, then I'll post in the "Trip Reports" section.

And I'll warn in advance -- my mantra is to never write 10 words when 1000 will do better! :)

You need to evaluate what I say in the context of knowing a little about me, so you can best determine how what I say might apply to your own plans.

I'm 67, 6 feet tall, 150 to 160 pounds. I'm in pretty good shape. I walk or jog 2 or 3 miles a day (and I'll later tell you what I'm doing to train for the rim to rim).

Like Laura, I consider myself to be -- if not the luckiest guy (not gal) in the world, pretty darn close. I moved to fabulous Las Vegas from Orlando, Florida 5 1/2 years ago.
I could write forever about WHY it's so great to live here, but for purposes of Whitney Zone, and everyone's prime interest, ONE reason is the WEALTH of outdoors
opportunities in every direction from here and relatively close by. (If and when I win MegaBucks (currently about $ 13,900,000) I'll then know FOR SURE that I'm the luckiest
guy in the world!)

I am not a backpacker (meaning, to my mind, sleeping overnight in the outdoors). I'm not even a full fledged hiker in the sense that it's my prime avocation. It isn't. (That honor goes to being a restaurant hound. And I have other interests that also probably weigh in ahead of hiking, like travel, for instance.) But -- hiking and the love of the outdoors IS a strong peripheral interest.

The hiking activity probably started when I day hiked Whitney in 2004 at age 59. The travel interest at that point had exposed me to -- besides all mainland 48 states, all
except 4 state capitals, half the major league baseball parks, 30 of the 45 national parks within the continental US -- the lowest point in Death Valley (Badwater). The thought came to me -- if I've been to the lowest point, shouldn't I go to the highest point as yet another "bucket list" goal? So, I started researching online. It's doable -- NOT a technical climb. But it's nonetheless a challenge. And what's this? Doing it in a day? You're ON! The goal had been formed.

Continuing this "here is me" talk to, again, put what I have to say about the Grand Canyon rim to rim in context . . .

My Whitney day hike started at 4:00 AM, I summited at 12:45 PM, left the summit at 1:50 PM, back to the portal at 6:42 PM. Coming from lowland Florida, I DID acclimatize
over 3 or 4 days before the hike. My hydration concept was to pack 6 20 oz. Gatorades (of which I only drank 5). (I didn't want the hassle of water sources study, taking time to purify, etc. My concept might well be different next time, especially with learning how pure the water is on Whitney.)

(I preferably would like to post an 8 year old trip report -- unfortunately my source (emails to friends and family) for that was destroyed in a computer meltdown.)

When I did Whitney, I timed a major physical about the same time, while my body was lean and mean from the Whitney training. I do a major physical every three years, so I
fell into the habit of conceptually planning both events -- a major hike and my major physical -- every 3 years. I actually didn't do a big hike 3 years later in 2007, but DID one in 2009 (well -- "roughly" every 3 years!) and am now planning the rim to rim in 2012. (I'm tentatively planning the Mountaineer's Route on Whitney for 2015 at age 70.)

Mt. Charleston in 2009 (Southern Nevada's highest peak at some 12,950 feet) was a 6:00 AM start and finishing the whole shebang (18 miles round trip) about 3:30 PM. (I live at 3,200 feet elevation, was told by others that there was no need for acclimatization, found out that was the way it might work while doing some other climbs in the Charleston vicinity, and that's the way it DID work out.)

I've done Griffith Peak, Turtlehead Peak, Frenchman Mountain, Lone Mountain here locally, along with other mountains and other trails -- maybe 15 to 20 different things. I've done Camelback Mountain in Phoenix. Now that I think about it, Mt. Hunger in Vermont, 4 peaks in the Adirondacks (NY) much earlier in life.

So let's talk about the rim to rim effort now that you can paint what I'll say in the context of knowing who's speaking.

Arguably, it may be more fun to do the rim to rim over 2 or more days, but just like my Whitney hike, I like the challenge of doing it in a day. So that's what I selected.

If you're looking into this hike at all, and done any research, you've discovered that while the North Kaibab trail is the only corridor trail from the North Rim you have two choices when it comes to connecting with the South Rim -- the South Kaibab Trail and the Bright Angel trail. You also have the choice of going from north to south or south to north.

I decided on going from north to south. The prime advantage is less uphill hiking in that the North Rim is some 1,500 feet higher than the South Rim. And I decided on using the Bright Angel Trail coming up -- advantage is that while it's a little longer than the South Kaibab it's not as steep (duh!) AND it avoids exiting a fair distance away from the South Rim hotels.

You may have also found out that the TIMING of the hike is critical. It's hellaciously hot in the canyon much of the year. May and September/October are the prime times to hike. You know from my earlier post -- I decided October 3. (Before selecting that exact date I researched sunrise, sunset, moonrise, and moonset times for that and other late September/early October dates.)

You've also found -- or will know now -- that some of the logistics for a rim to rim are a little tricky. The only way back to the rim from where you started is to hike across the canyon again OR take a shuttle (or have some sort of driving arrangement with private vehicles worked out in advance with friends or family, as Steve pointed out).

I'll be using the shuttle. It's a 215 mile 4 1/2 hour drive around the eastern end of the canyon. $ 85. Go here: http://www.trans-canyonshuttle.com/ Note that reservations are REQUIRED. (I plan on calling them about a month before my hike.)

Another reality is that -- unless you will be camping or sleeping in your own vehicle at EACH rim (sleep, hike in one day, sleep again, back to the other rim), you have to make reservations at hotel facilities EARLY. It's recommended up to a year in advance. While you may get away with less time than that I didn't chance it. I made my reservations LAST YEAR in the summer! There is only ONE hotel on the North Rim -- the Grand Canyon Lodge. Go here: http://www.grandcanyonlodgenorth.com/ You have a number of choices on the South Rim -- but the number of folks THERE as opposed to the North Rim is MUCH higher, so you can't delay making your reservation there either. Go here: http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/ Note that one booking company takes reservations for all places on the South Rim and a separate company for the one place on the North Rim. (And --if you DO want to do something other than sleep in hotels you're on your own with your research -- I didn't look into that.)

Yet another logistical oddity is that the trailhead for the North Kaibab trail is a mile or three from the hotel (can't remember the exact distance and too lazy to Google it up again!). Whether it's one or three is irrelevant -- I don't think you want to hike this in addition to the 24 MILES from rim to rim, do you? The hotel offers a complimentary
shuttle to the trailhead but only twice a day. What times? Will they work for your hike planning? Last information I had was that one of those times was at 5:45 AM, which works for me because my planned hike start time is 6:00 AM. Also, when I check in the day before the hike, I will be looking at a medium sized parking lot (free) that is near the trailhead to visually ensure it's not too far from the trailhead AND is not about to be crammed with cars if I decide to use it the next morning. So I'm giving myself an option here. To use the shuttle, you have RESERVE it at least a day ahead. I will be calling to do that from Las Vegas before I drive there.

Are we having fun yet?

My detailed plans . . . I leave Las Vegas on October 2 to check in to the North Rim Grand Canyon Lodge in the late afternoon. Hike day -- leave at 6:00 AM. After much
thinking my best guess estimate for finishing time for the hike (15 miles down, 10 miles up) is NLT 7:00 or 7:30 PM. Sleep overnight (I'll be at the Bright Angel Lodge, right
NEXT to the trailhead I'll be exiting the canyon from), and catch that shuttle at 1:30 pm the next day, arriving back on the North Rim at 6:00 PM (it stops at BOTH the hotel AND that parking lot). I plan to drive directly back to Las Vegas then.

I'm going to put 4 20 oz. Gatorades in my pack for this hike. Your research will show that there are -- also -- multiple water sources on both trails. Food will be some GORP
and/or a bunch of Cliff bars. (I'll be looking forward to a NICE meal (with BEER!) at one of the many attractive dining choices available on the South Rim after the hike.)

If you knew what I know about those sky object set and rise times you'll know that I need to take a headlamp with me for
the hike. I will be! (Make sure you check all that out for yourself too. Even if you think you can do the whole shebang in daylight you still want a headlamp in case your estimate of time is way off or you run into an emergency.)

Emergency? I will -- and you should too -- let someone know what your planned finish time is, and give them an emergency contact # to start a search and rescue if they don't
hear from you by a certain time. For me -- I'm adding 3 hours to my planned NLT finish time. That time -- 10:30 ARIZONA time (adjust if your contact is in a different time
zone)-- will be the time for my contact to call emergency (haven't got that number yet, one thing I've got to confirm yet). Besides the right number to call, she will have my planned hike itinerary information, where my car will be (with it's description), where I'm staying, etc. You know the drill . . .

What haven't we talked about yet? Acclimatization? (In fact, the relative elevations for this hike are one bonus in comparison to the higher ones for Whitney.) For me, it won't be necessary. But -- the North Kaibab trailhead is still at about 8,500 feet. If you're a lowlander I would recommend, minimally, staying for a few days at that elevation before your hike. (When I did Whitney, flying in to California from lowland Florida, I drove to the Sierra directly from taking a cruise literally at sea level. I drove to Mammoth Lakes
at -- also -- about 8,500 feet. Stayed there for 2 or 3 days (with a side jaunt to White Mountain and 2 hikes through the Bristlecone pines and one hike from the gate to the Barcroft station and back -- oh, had a flat tire at 11,000 feet before all that!, drove to Lone Pine, went up to Lone Pine Lake and back that same day, stayed at the Dow Villa, next day hung around the portal, next day the hike. Buried in all that detail -- my head was REAL light in Mammoth Lakes that first night. As I stated -- I would recommend if you're coming from a lower elevation to give yourself a few days at 8,500 feet before your hike.)

Training for the hike? Gosh, we all have our own ideas for that sort of thing. Here's what I do. It's been a consistent regimen for any of my bigger hikes (that every 3 years thing). When I contemplated the 22 miles round trip for Whitney in a day back in 2004 I first thought -- but I've never hiked over 5 miles (and that was as a Boy Scout a LONG time ago). So I knew I at least had to hike 22 miles before Whitney to know I could do it. I first did a 4 mile hike, then a 15 one, then a 22 mile one. And this sort of segues in to my overall regimen.

I start training about 5 or 6 months before the big hike. (Remember, this is in ADDITION to my daily walk and jog routine.) I alternate on weekends (once a week) between:

# 1 -- doing those 22 mile hikes. Nothing sexy, just routes on city streets pre-plotted out. Takes 6 to 6 1/2 hours.

# 2 -- jogging 3 miles. (With 2 of the jogging days 5 mile runs.)

# 3 -- stair climbing. Specifically, here in Las Vegas, going up and down the 17 steps in my 2 story condo 150 times! (Takes about an hour and a half.)

In the last two months before the "big hike" I do all these things (including my daily stuff) with 20 pounds in my backpack. Which is (duh) on my back.

(I TOLD you I like to write!)

I think -- somehow -- my mind has run out of stuff to spit out. Which means, I hope, that most of the stuff that will be informative and helpful to anyone else has hopefully now been put out for you to consider.

If I think of anything else that might be useful to say I'll post again. And, again, feel free to ask question, either here or via PM. Or -- just make comments, especially if you think I'm missing something or should consider something.




Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/31/12 07:28 AM
Wow! ...looking forward to Chapter 2.   wink

Looks like the logistics for the rim-to-rim takes quite a bit more planning than a Whitney hike.
Posted By: smithb Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 07/31/12 09:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve C
Looks like the logistics for the rim-to-rim takes quite a bit more planning than a Whitney hike.

logistic nightmare - but it is happening.

i'll see the previous poster's auto trip from las vegas and raise him a round-trip train ride from williams az to the south rim.

we'll drive from ventura county to williams az.

hotel overnight.

grand canyon railway from williams to the south rim.

same day van shuttle from south rim to north rim.

hotel overnight.

hike north rim to south rim.

hotel two overnights.

grand canyon railway from south rim to williams.

hotel overnight.

drive home to ventura county.

for us, the biggest potential fly is october weather scratching the hike and/or van ride.
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/02/12 05:01 AM
Steve, regarding the logistics planning -- 'taint NEARLY so bad as my Everest trip was. (Not! In my dreams . . . )

Our local newspaper columnist specializing in the outdoors/hiking/backpacking just recently did rim to rim over several days and published an article about it. I emailed her to touch base, and she responded back with an answer I'd asked regarding the ability to get Gatorade at the Phantom Ranch Cantina at the bottom of the canyon. (She said it was right next to the trail.)

She also said both snacks and beverages were available -- wasn't sure if Gatorade per se was part of the mix, though she suspected that, if not, they likely had at least powder to mix with water.

I checked http://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/dining-712.html and see that, also, both snacks and beverages are mentioned. If cold Gatorade is available it will be preferable for me or anyone else in lieu of Gatorade or other warmer beverages. And this might be factored in one's packing decisions for their pack.

Note at this site -- accessibility is apparently not possible during meal serving hours (meals REQUIRE reservations). (For me, I should be able to get a cold drink, as my likely time passing by this place will easily be between the published meal hours.)

Also note (anyone planning this hike) - you can reserve "sack lunches" here. (You might go this route in lieu of packing some food.)

What happened to "monkie onmy back", "BryanB"? Anyone else planning near term for this hike?
Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/02/12 05:31 AM
Right now I don't have a date planned to do a Rim to Rim - I need to find someone to join me. If someone from this forum is going and doesn't mind me tagging along, I'm game - as long as I can work it into my schedule. Personally, I'd prefer to spend a night at the bottom and not try to do it all in a day.

I don't recall there being cold bottled Gatorade at Phantom Ranch, but they do sell electrolyte powder to mix into water. As far as beverages at the Cantina, DO NOT miss the lemonade! I know it sounds silly, but the lemonade at Phantom Ranch is probably the best I've ever had! It is very sweet, so if you're not a fan of drinks full of sugar, it's probably not for you.

Also, there are some neat patches, pins, t-shirts, etc that you can buy ONLY at Phantom Ranch - so maybe reserve some space in your pack to haul a souvenir or two out. If you're really against the extra weight, and don't mind paying a few extra bucks, you can mail stuff home from the post office at Phantom Ranch.

Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/02/12 05:37 AM
Also, forgot to mention that the sack lunches are a great deal and you should definitely reserve one! It'll save food weight and it's a really nice package of all different types of food and snacks.

I think mine had a bagel and cream cheese, summer sausage, various crackers/cookies/trail mix, raisins, fresh apple, granola bar and a packet of electrolyte powder.
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/03/12 05:40 AM
As it gets closer to my hike, it looks like I may be able to contribute more useful information for any potential rim to rimmers.

Today I called Trans-Canyon Shuttle to make my reservation for the 1:30 PM October 4 departure from the South Rim to the North Rim (arriving at 6:00 PM). (Incidentally, the shuttle leaves from exactly where I'll be staying the night before after my hike -- Bright Angel Lodge.)

I learned that they do not accept a credit card, only cash or a check. I was asked to send $ 45 via snail mail to confirm the reservation with the remaining $ 40 ($ 85 total fare) due at ride time. They will mail me a confirmation letter (and a confirmation # was given over the phone).

The gentleman I talked with was very friendly and accomodating -- I remembered his voice from a call last year getting VERY preliminary information!

BryanB -- appreciate the information about Phantom Ranch.
Posted By: 63ChevyII.com Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/07/12 05:34 PM
I'm from SoCal and am interested in doing Rim to Rim. It probably won't happen this year, so I plan to start looking into it this fall after we're done with the hikes we have planned for this summer are finished (we have Whitney, San G (again) and C2C left).

I did a day hike of the Grand Canyon a few years ago, back then I was just kinda along for the ride, but I believe we did South Rim (down South Kaibab trail and up the Bright Angel Trail).


The two 'barriers' for me so far have been the logistics issues (Whitney Fan's post about the shuttle helps with is) and finding someone to do it with me.
Posted By: jmthiker Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/07/12 08:37 PM
Monkie
If you are up for a R2R2R, you can go s to n one day, stay overnight on the north rim and hike n to s the next day. I did this 3 years ago and it is not as difficult as it sounds. If you want to hotel it on the north rim, you will need to do it before they close down in Nov for the winter.
Posted By: Stalin Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/07/12 10:03 PM
WhitneyFan,

My group is doing similar hike as yours but next year labor day weekend and staying at Phantom Ranch for a night before exiting south rim via BA trail. I'm sure the logistics you have worked out will be very useful to anyone planning R2R hike.

Good luck for your october trip.

Thanks,
Stalin
Posted By: RenoFrank Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/08/12 04:51 AM
How'd you get resys at Phantom Ranch? I've been unsuccessful.
Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/08/12 04:59 AM
Are you guys referring to the cabins at Phantom Ranch, or to camping at Bright Angel Campground (in the same area as Phantom Ranch)?

I got a permit to stay in the campground fairly easily with some advance planning. It does fill up very quickly, but if you make sure to get your permit application in early on the first day you can, and also have backup dates you should get something.

I don't have any experience with reserving cabins at Phantom Ranch proper, so can't help you there. I do hear it gets booked well in advance though.
Posted By: Stalin Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/09/12 10:04 PM
Phantom Ranch has both cabin lodging mainly for mule riders, as well dorms for hikers with separate rooms for male and female. They carry only 10 beds per gender so spots gets booked soon as soon as the window opens up.

Yes I was lucky to get my call through on Aug 1st 6am Pacific from sunny bay area, after getting repeated busy lines, to reserve spots on labor day weekend FOR next year.

Btw, I kept calling from 3 mobile phones and a landline, hoping that one would get through. Apparently, got lucky with landline.

Stalin
Posted By: BryanB Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/09/12 10:18 PM
Oh, that's right - I totally forgot about the dorm option. Good deal - no need to carry the added weight of overnight gear.
wholly cow- this is quite an informative thread. I havent had the chance to sit down, write down notes, and digest it quite yet. I am half tempted to hike with a tent rather then hotel it, but that might change as I really think it through with the extra weight it would require.

Thank you all, great insight but it needs a through read through and a little computer research. Logistics logistics logistics
Posted By: BayAreaDoug Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/17/12 02:29 AM
Hi,

What is the difficulty of single day rim-to-rim versus a day hike of Whitney?

Steve,

What happened to the attempt to do three round trips on Whitney in a single day? I saw in the Portal Store that an ultra marathoner did two round trips in 6.5 hours ? Some people are very remarkable
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/17/12 07:40 AM
> What happened to the attempt to do three round trips on Whitney in a single day? I saw in the Portal Store that an ultra marathoner did two round trips in 6.5 hours ?


The 3x Whitney Main Trail attempt stopped at 2X. They started in the evening, after being awake all day, and were too tired after 2x on no sleep.

They talked of trying again, but starting after first getting sleep. I don't understand why they are concentrating on the Main Trail. Doing 3x via the Mountaineers Route would be easier.
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/18/12 04:39 AM
Interesting question re: difficulty of rim to rim vs. Mt. Whitney main trail in a day.

It's been discussed before, and I can't remember what the results were (and am too lazy to research it) -- but I tend to think the answers skewed toward Mt. Whitney.

I'll have my own personal feeling about this after I do my rim to rim hike on October 3.

At face value . . . 22 miles round trip for Mt. Whitney vs. 24 for rim to rim (North Kaibab & Bright Angel trails). 6,100 feet elevation gain for Mt. Whitney vs. about 4,500 (after going down about 6,000) for rim to rim. Lower elevations for rim to rim (highest about 8,100 vs. the 14,500 for Whitney). But going UP at the END instead of the beginning for rim to rim (I'm quite interested in what THAT will be like -- it's 15 miles and about 6,000 feet down before then going another 10 miles up some 4,500 feet).

(All the above is predicated on a rim to rim hike in reasonable temperatures -- May or late September/early October. Throw in hellish heat at other times for the rim to rim and the answer might well be rim to rim.)

Is my memory correct that the predominant viewpoint is that Whitney is a little harder? Folks?
Posted By: Stalin Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/18/12 04:23 PM
I second that. It all comes down to handling heat vs. altitude. I lean towards altitude as heat can be circumvented by hiking out in the evenings.

Stalin
Posted By: John Sims Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/18/12 04:34 PM
I've done both, and no question about it: Whitney is more difficult. You do make a good point about finishing up hill, which I feel makes your hydration and nutrition more important. While on Whitney, gravity is your friend, and you can sort of "coast" home, not the case with the Rim to Rim. Here, you mush have something left in your tank. Hence the need for proper nutrition and Hydration.
Posted By: KathyW Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/18/12 09:02 PM
For me Whitney via the Main trail takes 2 to 2.5 hours longer to do the round-trip than do go from the South Rim to the North Rim via South Kaibab/North Kaibab, and that's with the side trip to Ribbon Falls on the North Kaibab trail. Whitney also feels a lot harder because of the higher elevation.

If you do the hike, don't miss Ribbon Falls - it's just a short hike from the main trail and it's really beautiful.
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/19/12 02:23 AM
KathyW, that's interesting about your observation that the Whitney hike is 2 to 2 1/2 hours longer. It's interesting because that sort of meshes beautifully with my estimate for the time it will take me to do the canyon hike. I'd posted way above my time for the Whitney round trip . . . 4:00 AM to 6:42 PM (with a hour and 5 minutes on the summit), or 14 hours and 42 minutes. Subtracting 2 or 2 1/2 hours from that gives either 12 hours and and 42 minutes or 12 hours and 12 minutes.

My canyon estimate (again, posted earlier) is leaving at 6:00 AM and finishing NLT than 7:30 PM -- or 13 1/2 hours. So, actually, perhaps I've estimated too conservatively? I'd been "on the bubble" about doing the side trip to Roaring Springs, and hadn't really considered Ribbon Falls -- but perhaps I should schedule these in.

Please tell me -- did you actually do this hike (down the North Kaibab, up the Bright Angel)? What were your exact times as far as start and finish? And did that hike include both Roaring Springs and Ribbon Falls, or just what exactly?

Thanks!
Posted By: Sparty85 Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/20/12 01:31 AM
Whitney Fan- I did this hike last year- North Kaibab and up Bright Angel. It took us 11 hours, and that did include a side trip down by Phantom Ranch to take a little dip in the Colorado River. I am normally around 12 hours round trip on Whitney Main trail including time at the summit.

This is a great hike, I know you will have a lot of fun!
Posted By: KathyW Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 08/20/12 01:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Whitney Fan
KathyW, that's interesting about your observation that the Whitney hike is 2 to 2 1/2 hours longer. It's interesting because that sort of meshes beautifully with my estimate for the time it will take me to do the canyon hike. I'd posted way above my time for the Whitney round trip . . . 4:00 AM to 6:42 PM (with a hour and 5 minutes on the summit), or 14 hours and 42 minutes. Subtracting 2 or 2 1/2 hours from that gives either 12 hours and and 42 minutes or 12 hours and 12 minutes.

My canyon estimate (again, posted earlier) is leaving at 6:00 AM and finishing NLT than 7:30 PM -- or 13 1/2 hours. So, actually, perhaps I've estimated too conservatively? I'd been "on the bubble" about doing the side trip to Roaring Springs, and hadn't really considered Ribbon Falls -- but perhaps I should schedule these in.

Please tell me -- did you actually do this hike (down the North Kaibab, up the Bright Angel)? What were your exact times as far as start and finish? And did that hike include both Roaring Springs and Ribbon Falls, or just what exactly?

Thanks!


All three of my hikes up the N. Kaibab trail have included the side trip to Ribbon Falls (It's just 1/2 mile round-trip and very beautiful - also, if you hit that area when it's hot out you can go under the falls and cool off). I never left the main N. Kaibab trail at roaring springs, but looking back I wish I had gone to see the water gushing out of the cliffs.

Whitney day hikes have taken me between 13 and 13.5 hours round-trip, but I don't spend anymore than 30 minutes on top. I'm a slow steady hiker, and then just a slow hiker once I get over 10,000' elevation.

The Grand Canyon hikes started with a day hike down the S. Kaibab and up the Bright Angel Trail a few years ago - that took me 8 hours. Since then I've done 3 R2R2R hikes.

The first one was an overnighter. We went down the S. Kaibab starting at about 5:30 or 6 am and got to the N. Kaibab 11 hours later. We stayed overnight at the N Rim and hiked back down the N. Kaibab and up the Bright Angel the next day - I believe it took about 11 hours to hike back on the second day; so 22 hours total for both ways.

The second time I did it in a day (sort of). I went down the Bright Angel at night (around 8 pm) and then up the N. Kaibab, and then turned right around and went down the N. Kiabab and up the Bright Angel Trail. Surprisingly enough it took about 11 hours to get to the N. Kaibab that time too even though it was a longer route, but I really slowed down on the way back up the Bright Angel Trail (I like the S. Kaibab a lot better than the Bright Angel Trail), and it took me 15 hours to get back; so a total of 26 hours to do the 48 miles using the Bright Angel both ways.

Then I had to go back again because I hadn't done it in under 24 hours; so I couldn't call it a day hike. So, last October I started in the afternoon around 3:30 pm and went down the S. Kaibab Trail and reached the N. Kaibab Trail 11 hours later. I turned around and went back down right away, but it was still dark when I got to Ribbon Falls; so I had to wait about 45 minutes for it to get light enough for the side trip to Ribbon Falls. I just can't see doing that hike without going to Ribbon Falls because it's so beautiful. I went back up the S. Kaibab that trip and made it back to the S. Kaibab Trail in just under 24 hours - that version was 42.5 miles.

Both times I did the R2R2R hikes in one stretch, I just drove there and started hiking without getting any sleep. I don't sleep real well the night before a big hike; so I'm better off just waiting to sleep after the hike. I'm done now with R2R2R trips.

Also, October is a really nice time to do the hike - the N. Rim facilities close down in mid-October; so you have to keep that in mind.

For my next Grand Canyon trip, I want to do the Deer Springs/Thunder River Lollipop loop (as a backpacking trip), but I didn't get the days I requested for mid-October this year. I'm going to expand my request to include days as late as early November and see if I can get a permit for this year. If not this fall, I'll try for the spring.

Tips: Pack real food or arrange for a sack lunch you can pick up at Phantom Ranch - It's just not the kind of hike you can do on just goop and jell. It can be very hot in "The Box" between Phantom Ranch and Cottonwood; so hydrate well before that section. It can be really cold and windy at the N. Rim; so don't forget some light gloves, a warm hat, and some kind of jacket or warm layer to put on. Go down the S. Kaibab it's prettier and shorter.



Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/08/12 08:45 PM
In the spirit -- again -- of documenting in this thread the planning and preparation for the planned October 3 day hike (and an actual trip report later will be posted in the "Trip Reports" section) . . .

This last week I called the El Tovar Lodge on the South Rim to make 8:30 PM October 3 dinner reservations. (Estimated completion of rim to rim at NLT 7:30 PM.) The El Tovar Lodge is the Grand Canyon version of Yosemite's Ahwahnee, and reservations well in advance for dining there are advised. (Whether that is REALLY so or not I'm not sure, but it didn't hurt to take that advice at face value.)

Sooooo . . . if your restaurant meals are important when you do the rim to rim, just another possible tip for you. (I told the gal on the phone that I would be completing a rim to rim just prior to my planned dining time and that my 8:30 PM request was my best estimate. I told her that if after 15 minutes past that time I still had not shown up, nor had called to alert of a delay, that I was likely way longer in my hike than I'd estimated -- and to go ahead and cancel my reservation if other diners were slamming the place and they couldn't hold it.)

Otherwise, at this point only 3 1/2 weeks away from the trip . . . all remaining "to do's" are on my calendar to do at the appropriate time (and I'll note them here when they come up.)

Physical training as described elsewhere earlier in the thread has been going along nicely (and strenuously). 22 mile hikes, up and down my condo stairs 150 times, 3 mile runs all with the 20 pound backpack on me now. Taint' necessarily "fun", but as it is said, there is no gain without pain. I'm sure -- just like when I'd day hiked the Whitney main trail -- that NOT going through this regimen would make the upcoming hike much less enjoyable, if not actually jeopardizing it's hoped for success.
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/10/12 07:14 PM
Good Luck, Whitney Fan! Thanks for keeping us up-to-date.

Looking forward to a report and some pictures. ...including the lodging/dining facilities, if you can.
Posted By: sssss Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/12/12 08:29 PM
still set for 10-01-12 hike
was hoping for cancellations on the prior weekend so I might adjust my shuttle/hotel reservations and complete the hike on the weekend, but none yet (at least when I have checked)

this should go better than my whitney day hike attempts (twice in August 2012) - turned back both time by altitude issues

first attempt was with two others that followed the same limited acclimitization, they had no issues and summited, met me back at trail camp and we finished the hike - I stopped a short distance up the switchbacks

second attempt solo, with a greater effort to acclimatize, but still didn't pan out, had some issues of concern approx. one mile out from the summit, headed back to trail crest and down

it seems I may be a bit sensitive on this altitude issue, now considering a backpack trip from a location other than the portal rather than dayhike

will try to collect a few pics along the way
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/12/12 08:53 PM
sssss: There is a very good thread on AMS and suggestions here:
    Altitude Sickness Trip Report and Re-Attempt Questions
If you have any comments or questions, please do post them in that thread.

Best of luck on your Grand Canyon hike. Looking forward to a trip report!
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/18/12 12:08 AM
Sooo . . . more "to do" things accomplished pre-actual trip.

I plan on waking up at 4:15 AM for my planned 6:00 AM trailhead start. (Besides the "getting up" routine there will be some time for eats of some kind or another and then you have to allow 15 minutes or so to get to the North Kaibab trailhead from the Grand Canyon Lodge.) On Sunday I set my alarm at 8:30 AM and will be backing that up 15 minutes each day (which neatly aligns with 4:15 AM for October 3.)

Why? Just another planning incidental, and many likely have also discovered this. I am a creature of the night both by predisposition, being retired, and living in the capital of hedonism. I typically am up to anywhere from 2:00 AM to 5:00 AM in the morning and get up anywhere from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM.

Now -- if I kept THAT up until October 3, don't think it would help with regard to that planned 4:15 AM up time. Thus my alarm clock machinations -- that worked well for my Whitney day hike back in '04 (when I had to get up even earlier for a planned 4:00 AM trailhead start).

And today I called both Forever Resorts (Grand Canyon Lodge) and Xanterra (Bright Angel Lodge) to re-confirm my sleeping reservations there. Both reservations were made WAY last year and no communication had been made about them since then -- prudent to ensure things in order.

Finally, I also today confirmed the number for search and rescue. (928) 638-7805 was the number given to me by both a gal at Xanterra AND the Grand Canyon Backcountry Information Office as the one appropriate to call should any emergency need attention.

An email will go to a loved one tonight with that # along with planned itinerary information, physical and car description, and instructions to call that # if I don't call her by 10:30 PM (3 hours after my estimated NLT finish to my hike). Hopefully a standard pre-hike preparation for anyone, especially hiking alone. Although I expect -- like the Whitney Main Trail -- to run into many people, the length of the hike and potential dangers justify making the "what if" preparations.

Between some chow before hiking and a nice meal after it at the El Tovar, I'm thinking 5 Cliff bars (about 1,200 calories) will be enough for me on the hike (YMMV). Bought those over the weekend and still have to buy 4 20 oz. Gatorades -- that may be all I'll need (again, YMMV) especially with multiple water sources on the trail.

Only a few more "to do's" left which I'll post here again when accomplished. Then, as previously stated, the trip report itself will go into that section on the board.
Posted By: Steve C Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/18/12 03:38 AM
Best of luck, Whitney Fan! (With your careful preparations, you likely won't need any.)
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/19/12 06:47 AM
Shucks, you're just trying to be nice!

I'll still accept luck. Luck is the one factor we can't control, and it can turn an expected outlook around completely.

I wonder what everyone else's experience is with multiple long hikes? On Sunday I did my last city street 22 mile hike with my backpack on -- it was actually 24 miles because I figured I should at least technically have done a hike of that length before doing the rim to rim 24 miles. And I'd guess there was somewhere between 1,250 to 1,500 feet elevation gain involved total.

But my point is -- like ALL 22 mile hikes I ever take (and I've done over 20 of them between actual outdoors hikes and training hikes since 2004), they are ALL TIRING!

My hypothesis for others to comment on -- no matter what kind of shape you're in, no matter how many long hikes like that you've ever gone through, any hike of THAT length is STILL going to be somewhat exhausting.

What say y'all?
WhitneyFan,

I am fascinated by your story. I too have done very very little backpacking mostly because of family obligations, logistics and time. So that has left me with long day hikes such as a 22 mile hike from Tenaya Lake to Clouds Rest to Half Dome to Yosemite Valley last summer where my family dropped me off and I met them in the Valley. This summer a big day hike of Crows Pass here in Alaska that covered about 24 miles and included a major league glacier river crossing. A bear also killed a moose on the trail the day after my hike which closed the trail for a few weeks. Anyway, if a person is in shape, they are manageable and quite enjoyable. I love the concept of a rim to rim dayhike.
Posted By: RenoFrank Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/19/12 07:23 PM
When training for an epic once a year hike I focus on the steepness and elevation gain. I figure I only have a limited number of 20 mile hikes in me and I save it for the real thing.
Posted By: John Sims Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/19/12 10:06 PM
Yes, any 22 mile hike is a lot, but I do find that when I train it does get notably easier. For me, it is my feet that are all "beat up" at the end of the day. I guess if you hiked a lot, and often, even your feet would "toughen up".
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 09/20/12 04:16 AM
For those of us that are not "full time" hikers, it would be interesting to see how we'd do on a Whitney or rim to rim type hike WITHOUT training for it. It would be interesting to see how much of a factor the training would have been -- comparing your hike without training to when you'd done it with training.

Would we even be able to accomplish it? And, if we did, how stark would the differences be in time taken, physical status at the end, etc.? It really would be an interesting experiment -- substitute the "normal" challenge of a Whitney day hike by "kicking it up a notch": can you do it with NO training at all?

(Not that I'm about to try that!)
Posted By: Whitney Fan Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 10/01/12 02:47 AM
Last post in this thread -- my rim to rim hike is just a couple of days away effective Monday. (Hike is on Wednesday.)

As I'd said, I'd post anything remotely helpful in terms of preparation for this hike.

Just about the last trip significant preparation job will be tomorrow, Monday. I'll call the Grand Canyon Lodge on the North Rim to reserve a spot for me on the 5:45 AM (Wednesday) free shuttle to the Kaibab Trail trailhead. My understanding is that the time, cost, and timing to make the reservation is what I've stated. If not, I'll learn when I call.

Also, assuming that reservation is made, I'll scope out the parking lot by the trailhead Tuesday when I arrive. If it looks like there will be no problem with finding a space, with no scary signs prohibiting anything (like overnight parking) -- then odds are I'll just cancel the shuttle reservation. That will give me more flexibility on Wednesday morning in terms of how the timing actually works out for me (by using my own trusty 2001 Celica GT).

Either way -- the Trans-Canyon shuttle (don't confuse THIS with the North Rim trailhead shuttle!) from the South Rim back to the North Rim stops at BOTH the Grand Canyon Lodge parking area AND the Kaibab Trail trailheade parking lot (when I return Thursday).

Over and out -- next report will be THE trip report, in the "Trip Reports" section. (It might not be RIGHT away, but it will be "complete" and with pictures, as soon as my timing and energy level allow after return to fabulous Las Vegas.)
Posted By: KathyW Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 10/01/12 04:43 PM
Have a great trip! That heat wave that's going through So Cal right now will likely be passing through the Grand Canyon area in the middle of this week; so you might hit pretty hot temperatures down by the river and then through "The Box" to Cottonwood. On a hot day that side trip to Ribbon Falls is even better because you can get right under the falls and cool off.

Please do let us know how it goes. I'm especially interested in hearing how the fall colors are at the North Rim. There are some beautiful aspens at the North Rim.

My permit finally came through for the Thunder River / Deer Springs loop, but I have about 1.5 weeks before I head over to the Canyon.
Posted By: JAGCHiker Re: Grand Canyon- Rim to Rim interest? - 10/02/12 05:02 AM
Hopefully not to late; You can park your car at the trailhead parking space (if there is space). Just check how to get from the shuttle drop off at the lodge back to the trailhead. Perhaps the shuttle can drop you off at the trailhead parking-
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