Well, this report might fire off another ultra-light...be prepared debate.

http://www.sierrawave.net/31379/mono-sar-aids-ultra-marathoners/

I like the part in the article where it mentions that they were caught "off guard".

Ya think? It has only been monsoon season for the last couple of weeks -- I guess they didn't get the memo.

I will not even think to insult the UL crowd by including this idiocy in their group.

Wow! I backpacked that route about 20 years ago, and spent 5 days hiking the distance! And they were long days of walking, too! Some days there were multiple 1000' passes to climb and descend. It's really remote back in there.

By the time the runners got to Paiute Meadow, they were 2/3 the way through. Too bad they didn't try it in July when it was dry.

Good thing thing they weren't in the State Park. Would have been ticketed for RWS for sure.

I wonder if using the mommy button was part of the contingency plan for not being prepared in the first place.

What's RWS? Running with Spot? without seatbelts?

I wonder if they realized just how rugged the country is back there.

I bet they do now!!!

Stupidity should be painful...


My take on...

RWS: Running while stupid or Running with stupid or Really Weird $h!+..

PosAtt got it:

Riding Without Seatbelt --> Running While Stupid

As I hike along the PCT between Vincent Gulch and Mt. Islip, I am always amazed at how little the trail running crowd carries. Their de facto statement is "if I screw the pooch, I am counting on you to help me". This is an area where many train for the ACH 100 late in the summer.

When they do run it, they ugly up the wilderness with plastic tape so these people don't have to stop and figure out where they are. They also put logs across trail junctions, which can confuse hikers who are still using the trails during the race.

Two things about this rescue, it has been monsoon season and this is the Sierra where the weather is not always what Fritz says it is going to be. I guess in this day and age of entitlement, you hit a SPOT for your free to you helicopter ride rather than carry what is necessary.

They should bear the entire cost of this rescue.

This is a perfect example of the difference between ultralight and unprepared. All they needed was minimal shelter and a jacket to survive 24 hrs. Ultralight gear makes this so easy. Here's one simple solution of many:

Cuben fiber tarp Shelter 4 oz
Nanopuff Primaloft pullover 9 oz
Waterproof breathable jacket 6 oz

19 ounces total, easily fits in a hip pack. Like carrying a 16 oz water bottle.

"Ultralite" is a philosophy applied to a pretrip cost/benefit tradeoff (of dollars, pounds and judgement in when to cancel/bail vs preparedness). "Unprepared" is a call made in hindsight. If these clowns had gone in a dry part of July as SteveC suggests, they might have been "prepared" and 19 ounces "ultralight-cooler" than if they had followed SierraNevada's hindsight suggestion. Ultralight is a game of trading off preparedness, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and people will even disagree on when and where to place the line between win and lose. I think you should make the call from a viewpoint before you leave the trailhead. From then and there, a helicopter ride out is a lose. (After I'm sitting along the trail hypothermic I might consider a helicopter ride out a win.) These guys turned out to be ultralight -and- unprepared.

Dale B. Dalrymple

Prepare, its an action verb that is done beforehand, by definition. How well you prepared can be evaluated in hindsight, but that's too late. If their ultra-light gear was inadequate, then there's a debate to be had, but if they didn't carry ultra-light gear, then they are simply unprepared.

In my opinion, an ultra-marathoner doing a long distance training run over a 24-hr period in the wilderness should carry basic survival gear regardless of the weather forecast. Maybe a little more than I describe, like rain pants, maybe a bivy sack, or maybe a little less if conditions are perfect. During a race, there are checkpoints and support, that's different.

To go without gear is not ultra-light, its infinitely-light and totally unPREpared.

Trail running is an ultralight sport. Most who partake have 20 oz. of water in their right hand and 20 oz. of water on their hip...this is my experience on trails that see a lot of use by trail runners.

That's it!

What they say by this, I am counting everyone to take care of me when things go bad.

The list of this and that are anathema to most trail runners. They want light and lighter...to them this is anything but. Also, If you get caught above 10,000' in rain and plummetting to below freezing in nylon shorts and t-shirt and trail runners, a 9 oz. Primaloft puffy ain't gonna cut it, along with e-bivy it most likely would get you through the night. I know when my system is run down, I've got a problem getting warmed up without getting into a 15 F bag.

What a blessing it is to have you on this BB. No matter the mishap, you can instantaneously devine everyone's motives, impune, and summarily dismiss them. Ever considered a career on the radio, TV? If not, perhaps a call to Limbaugh's or Coulter's press agents?

I'll try again, going without gear is not "ultralight". It's called "unprepared." The term "Ultralight" is a lighter version of something that works just as well as the heavier version. It typical means a base weight in the 5-12 lbs range, not ZERO. Just saying that ultralight backpacking gear would be a good survival kit for ultramarathon runners on long training runs without the support of a race organization.

Ultramarathon runners typically wear a vest with room for the gear I described above. Some runners you see on the trail might even be carrying a few survival items stored out of view. Here's a typical vest with 12 liter capacity and it comes with a "survival blanket" and a whistle. It's clear from looking at the gear outlets online they are thinking about survival gear. They could learn a lot by crossing over with ultralight backpacker gear.

Ok Kevin,

They are unprepared for any emergency when something goes wrong, who takes care of them? Them? They don't got anything how can they take care of themselves. Who does that leave?

SN,

Are you saying trail runners do not have an ultra light philosophy? The evidence is to the contrary, your photo being one piece of evidence. On the whole, they go as light as possible...prepared or unprepared. Most appear to be unprepared to handle any emergency.

If you take the entire population of trail runners in the So Cal mountains, you will see 1 to 2% with that type of pack. Most have bottles of water in both hands or one in a fanny pack, one in hand.

One of the runners was in stage two hypothermia, when shivering stops and unconsciousness comes next. Kudos to SPOT and SAR on saving them.

Those runners are, no doubt, very fit athletes for whom this run was perhaps 'doable' under dry conditions. Of course dry can become cold and wet very quickly in the Sierra. The fact that they brought a SPOT indicates that they had some doubts or concerns, perhaps about the weather or maybe injury. If a broken ankle caused this rescue we probably wouldn't be so energized in this discussion. Still, other than carrying the SPOT it would appear that they took no additional, reasonable precautions. This shows a poor risk assessment and a somewhat cavalier attitude toward their would be rescuers.

Does anyone know if the runners made any kind of post-rescue report? I'd be curious to read their take on this.

The news release in the original post doesn't tell us what the rescued were carrying. All we know is that they were not prepared for what they encountered. That can happen at 0 pounds, at 5-12 pounds and at 70-80 pounds.



That's a great concept, but few people who drink the ultralight kool-aid practice that or are capable of practicing that. (People who look for shortcuts tend to take them.) The example of a tarp tent shows this. A Cuben tarp may "work just as well" as a heavier cotton canvas tarp, but few people can use a tarp adequately in blowing rain and snow. The evaluation of "just as well" seems to happen in the weather on the trail for some who think they are practicing ultralight. Tarps may be "good enough" for people who are practiced in their use, but that isn't sold in the stores with the gear. Ultralight works best for people with the experience, judgement and discipline to watch the weather and cut and run when conditions might exceed the capacity of their experience and gear. Few of our ultralight advocates market those qualities as well as they market their gear picks and lists.

Dale B Dalrymple

What one's opinion is, is probably created by what one is exposed to.

I happen to hang out with the crowd that thru-hikes the PCT, which has been the incubator for much of ultralight philosophy, starting with PCT luminary Ray Jardine.

Take the example of "Warner Springs Monty" Tam, whose base weight is famously under 5 lbs (not including food, water, hiking poles).

He has completed the 2,600 mile PCT four times. There has been NO weather condition that he has not encountered, and he has not had to be rescued, because he was PREPARED.

http://www.trailjournals.com/about.cfm?trailname=14986

Or "Flyin Brian" Robinson, who has completed the PCT, AT, and CDT, all in one year, over 7,000 miles of hiking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Robinson_(hiker)

Now an ultramarathoner, he set the 2008 record in the insane event known as the Barkley Marathons:

"Since the race's inception in 1986, only fourteen runners out of about 800 have completed the 100 mile race" One year, 30 out of 35 did not make the first checkpoint, 2 miles.

http://www.metropulse.com/stories/features/barkley-marathons-toughest-race-youve-never-heard

How did he do this? He was prepared. I know both of these guys, and more prepared guys you've never met.

Ken,

Those two guys are obviously the exception to the rule. The majority of backpackers would not be in same category as those "super-hikers".

Since one of the reasons for the existence of this forum is to provide (hopefully) knowledgeable advice to potential Mt. Whitney hikers, it is important that any advice given will help them succeed and survive.

Your obvious emphasis on going ultra-ultra light can be potentially misleading to neophyte hikers looking for advise from experienced forum posters, and as such should to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

You would do this forum a great service if you would kindly STFU about your ultra-light obsession.

Wow, Bob, certainly a welcoming and diverse-opinion-encouraging post. I believe that I will ignore your profanity, I wonder if that is typical of people of your town?

Am I obsessed with Ultralight technique? No, although I find it fascinating. For obsession, you'd have to look at Bob Rockwell. But don't worry, you've already managed to shut him up. I'm sure he would benefit from the collective wisdom of the heavyweight-style folks on this board, who can educate him properly.

But I like your suggestion at looking at what actually happens, and informing people based upon facts.

For example, this year, over 1400 people started out from Mexico on their way to walk to Canada. I won't say that they are all ultralighters, they are not. However, virtually all incorporate some aspect of ultralight techniques.

As far as I know, none has required a rescue due to inadequate gear.
But it certainly happens. Rarely.

But I'm curious: Ultralighters advocate careful studying of maps to ascertain water supplies, and carrying only a small reserve beyond what is needed to get from source to source.

Contrast that with those people who climb the MMWT carrying their water supply for the entire trip, measured in multiple gallons.

I wonder where you fall?

I also wonder about the sentiment advocated here often, that map skills are a waste of time, that GPS and SPOT have eliminated the need for such pedestrian knowledge. Interestingly, most ultralighters carry a altitude watch, and a GPS. And a map and compass.

I personally look at techniques of all persuasions, to find things that make sense, and enhance the experience. I find it sad that you, and others, do not take advantage of the opportunity to ask questions, and look at options, bur rather just take a sniping approach to something that you apparently don't do (but probably actually do, as noted with the water issue)

Bob

I think Ken's examples are extreme enough to be recognized as such even by beginners. Save the bag of salt for the gear from SierraNevada that comes from the catalog without the judgement or experience to use them safely.

Dale B Dalrymple

I am going to back it up and give some observations from the very middle of the road.

1. On my first backpack trip, my pack weighed 42lbs. My experienced buddies examined what I carried, and immediately noted that by not studying my water sources (thus carrying the WHOLE lot for the hike) I had added about 8 lbs extra. A maglite could easily be replaced with a very light headlamp. The basics.

2. Down the road, stoves became refined, cooking gear was traded up for lighter versions, food was re-packaged, More expensive but lighter down was purchased, etc

3. When I went on a trip with Steve C. & Bob R. I REALLY picked up some tips. One of them was that a lot of weight could be traded off with only small loss of comfort. ie, on a short overnight trip to the summit, I was able to leave behind the thermarest and just pack the Z-rest. Also, I left behind a heavy groud cloth for a hefty bag from the store. A safe amount of water was carried in reserve, but the consumption for the trip was drank en route. Instead of a tent, I used a bivvy. However, I still had a down parka & pants, thermals, booties, gloves, hat, raingear -- survival gear that could not be compromised.

4. The most interesting revelation was that I rarely needed TWO camera batteries -- especially when I only take about 5 pix per trip. I was very appreciative of Bob R's review of my gear.

I would scoff at being labeled anything but just plain ol trekker, BUT, I would never turn down the opportunity to improve my trip experience, and if that means help with lightening my load, than by all means offer advice.

I think folks are all in a bunch over labels (such is life) so that all nuance has been lost...Youre either WITH us or AGAINST us. Just plain silly.

Thank you Bee, for realism, and...for your calming influence.

My early backpacking days were similar to yours: 45 pound pack, with all the things I thought I needed...LOL...(65+ pounds with SAR gear). Now, after availing myself of the latest in lightweight gear (shock!) my one week pack is now about 25 pounds, including a 1.5 pound tent, 18 ounce bag, cushy pad, etc. As technology provides us with better and better products our pack weights will probably drop even more. While I carry a Spot device, I still resist GPS.

As we age (speaking for myself) less is more, but if someone wants to carry everything but the kitchen sink...more power to them if they can manage. (BTW, a certain, well travelled mountain lady here in Bishop always seems to carry a lot, but with yummy food and wine.)

But as for the tiny faction who would have us backpack nearly naked, I say, boooo!

Diversity is ok, extremism is not ok.

Be warned: not everyone in Bishop is politically correct.

Water: 750 ml or less.

I never carry a GPS or altitude watch, 'cause I know how to read a map. Why do you carry such crutches?

A lot of people have been rescued due to inadequate gear. Even experts die in the mountains.

Sorry that you felt the need to mention Bob R., who I count as a good and trusted friend from SAR days. Bob is not obsessive, but smart and experienced.

Dale, I agree that ultralight gear takes a little more knowledge and experience to use, but it's not rocket science. Pitching a tarp is more difficult than setting up a basic tent, but a few tries in the backyard can get anyone started. An alcohol stove or Esbit stove is a little more difficult than a canister stove, but the heaviest solution - a white gas stove - can be the most difficult of any stove, with the priming involved and occasional field repair. Lighter gear usually wears out faster, but its usually more expensive, which motivates people to take better care of it.

But in the end, it's just gear, people. Lighten up and stop taking pot shots at responsible ultralight backpackers every time a story pops up about someone who makes a bad decision to leave critical gear at home.

Watch out, I might start a thread called:

"What Was the Most Important Thing You Forgot To Pack in Your Pack?"

(glasses -- rendering me nearly blind the whole trip)

Bob West mentions above "a certain, well travelled mountain lady here in Bishop".

She (Moosetracks . . . Laura) was also mentioned a few days ago on the other forum, with someone noting her long absence from that board.

And I see her last post here was way back in January.

Bob (or anyone else), is she alive and well? What is she up to? Any insight as why the long absence here? Her contributions are appreciated by many, so curiosity is natural.

Forgot my boots to climb Williamson via George Creek. Fortunately, had some lightweight boots I was wearing for travel, but they did not survive that trip.

Bob, you can have your opinion, you're entitled. When you start throwing out profanity, you lose my attention and respect.

As for BobR, if you don't consider counting the number of sections of toilet paper (apparently 6 per day) obsession with weight, you don't know obsession...but of course, that was your description. I also consider Bob a friend, whose unending search for ultralightweight solutions I greatly admire.

Bob's title for his pack choices is titled "the Ultralight Pack"---I presume he knows how he wants to be described.

Do you really think he should shut up too, because of his style?
He enjoys discussing his choices and decisions with those interested, but that apparently would not include you.

By the way, the catchphrase of the Ultralight Community is "hike your own hike" HYOH, which means ----do what you prefer, I'm not going to tell you what I do and you MUST do.

Why the absence (Laura)?? Perhaps she has better things to do with her time than partake in the friendly fire that seems to take over these message boards.

People come and go from posting.

Laura's reasons for staying away from some of the more volatile message boards are hers alone, but I don't think Bee's reasoning is far off the mark. My sense is that she's devoting more time and effort into enjoying her adventures rather than reporting/debating them. More power to her.

WF, she's doing fine and is still up to her old tricks in the Sierra. She maintains a blog here . The weekly trip reports many of us looked forward to are no longer in play, but when she has something to say it will usually show up on her blog. She also posts regularly on Facebook.

Laura is currently on vacation, somewhere enjoying wilderness. As far as her reasons for being absent, that is her business, which I respect and understand.

Laura was looking fine when I saw her coming up the Bishop Pass trail backpacking with kids for the 4th of July weekend. She was excited about an upcoming 3-week loop hike in late July South Lake - North with lots of peak bagging. My wife and I were exiting the JMT from Mammoth. No time to discuss forum issues, but I did note that she hadn't posting in a long time. She said she was busy.

Edit: Oh yeah, she was carrying a monster pack like it was a day pack. The kids were little - reminded us of earlier times with our kids before we upgraded our gear. I think I saw a faucet handle sticking out.

SN, my family and I hiked out with her to Kearsarge Pass three years ago for the launch of her planned two-week summer backpack. This was following the near-record snow season and she was having to carry pretty much a full compliment of winter gear. And, of course, she had her ever-present culinary comforts as well.

My daughter was 11 at the time, and I swear Laura's pack was almost as big as her. She's not averse to making use of lighter gear when it makes sense, but she's always prepared and always has serious eats on hand. I doubt she'll ever be accused of going UL.

I saw an ultralight runner doing Whitney 3 days ago. It had been 10 F on the summit that morning. He was in shorts and shirt, no day pack. On the way down from the summit I walked as fast as him, at least net speed. He would run, then stop and tell everyone he met that his (gloveless) hands were cold. someone who knew him said he was an experienced UL from another state. I tried to tactfully point out that there were no 14,000 footers there

I'm not sure how "ultralight" is defined for dayhiking, but shorts, shirt and no day pack is just plain UNPREPARED. There's no "ultralight" gear involved whatsoever. This nut should not be lumped in with responsible ultralight hikers and backpackers.

For backpacking, the common definition of "ultralight" is a base weight of 5-12 lbs of COMPLETE GEAR - all systems included - pack, shelter, sleep system, warm clothing, rain gear, first aid kit, toiletries, navigation, etc. A large percentage of thru-hikers on the PCT, JMT, CDT, and AT carry packs in this range or very near 12 lbs base weight. Food and water might double or triple that right after resupply. Cumulatively, they hike over a 100,000 miles each year between April and November in all kinds of conditions. Very few of them are rocket scientists or millionaires.

A backpacking base weight less than about 5 lbs is typically considered "Super Ultralight." These setups are usually extreme and probably dicey for adverse weather.

Harvey,

I saw the same thing in '05 on between Whitney and Muir. The temperature was in single digits, according to my thermometer, and the wind was at 30 MPH. I had on every stitch of clothes I had...including a pair of shell pants. I walked into Whitney Portal in shorts.

What if he incapacitated up there? How do you keep him warm without putting yourself at risk? Almost no one is prepared for this type of temperature in the Sierra in August.

SN,

As I have said throughout this thread, there are good ul and standard packers and there are irresponsible ones.

This guy who Harvey met is obviously an irresponsible ul guy but still a ul guy. Every group has its good and bad elements.

It has been my experience that most seeking help or assistance seem to have a light to ultralight philosophy.

I have seen people push this philosophy with noobs. I have always felt this philosophy works best for those of us with a high skill level. We have made our mistakes and have figured out to a great degree what works and what does not, whereas the noobs know nada to little.

I am puzzled by the morphing of the title of this thread relating to ULTRA MARATHONERS to ULTRALIGHT MARATHONERS.

Personally, I have done medical work at many, many marathons, and I don't believe in those thousands upon thousands, I've ever seen a marathoner with a full pack.

I guess they are all unprepared. Of course, they compete in the Olympics, and we don't, so perhaps there is something to that.

Ultra Marathoners (100 miles, typically) is a different sport than hiking....so are simple marathons. I can't quite imagine what an Ultralight Marathoner would be----nude, I'd guess.

I'm not sure I'd be quick to criticize them for doing their sport that way it is usually done, because it is not done the way our sport is usually done.

L

Ken, you are quite right to remind us of some definitions. I think the discussion , though, boils down to location, location, location. The guy I saw might have been fine running the Boston marathon three times in a row with lots of available help if needed, but ankle busting trail at 14,000 ft carries more or at least different risks.

I just took an arch-exploring hike around Alabama Hills today with no water, no compass, no itinerary left behind. All I had was a nearly useless book full of GPS coordinates and I don't use a GPS, "just" a map. I could have slipped while scrambling and gone missing. Was I guilty of being unprepared? It all is a matter of degree.

I have some familiarity with the Angeles Crest 100 Km race. For those not familar, it a race in Angeles National Forest from Wrightwood to JPL in Pasdena along the PCT most of the way.

I have seen people practicing for the race, backpacked the crest when it was set up for the race and day hiked during the race itself. This is a lot different that two guys going out on their own. There is support stations every time the PCT crosses Angeles Crest Highway. The trail has surveyors tape marking the route along the course...which stays out there long after the race; and there are blocks set up so the racers do not end up on any of the many peaks along the way...confusing some who are hiking during the race.

An organize backcountry ultra marathon is a lot different than two guys going out unsupported. Since they are on their own and in the High Sierra, don'cha think they take a bit more than a supported runner in the Angeles, Ken?

Pretty much my take, Harvey. No surprise that we agree, again.

WB, I am not a marathoner, and definitely not an ultramarathoner. so I don't particularly have any comment as to what their sport involves.

I just know that they are not ultralight hikers, and should not be confused as such.

I am reminded of BobR's wonderful story of competing with the racers to climb Whitney.....Ultralight hiker vs. trail racers. Very different form, very different outcome.

I was lucky to live in Wrightwood for a year back in the 90's. Best air I've ever smelled, like vanilla most all the time.

Ken, I think there's a difference between running a race vs training for a race. These guys were training in remote wilderness with no support team when they hit their SPOT SOS button.

It seems like it would be helpful to train with a couple extra pounds anyway. Have a survival system during training runs, and then go without it on race day when you have a support team. You feel a couple pounds lighter when it counts. Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Ken,

There is a commonality in the UL hiking and backcountry running, the desire to go very light. This is ok for the ultra distance backcountry runners if they are supported. However, if they choose to go on these long runs without support, as these two did, they are obligated to take enough clothing and gear survive a night out in the conditions they expect to encounter, no different than any other hiker/runner in the wilderness. They did not and hit the free to them helicopter ride button putting others at risk.

WB, agreed. but they are not ultralight backpackers/hikers, who, by definition ARE adequately prepared for most reasonable conditions.

No, they are not by definition. No more than a standard hiker is prepared. Chances that both groups backpackers are prepared and skilled enough are high...but not all. Every group is standard, light and ul have a Bell Curve distribution of great, good and substandard members. The latter category get most of the attention and bandwidth usage.

I agree, WB. All it takes is an accident to level the playing field between UL and non-UL, whether they are prepared or not.

Perhaps we need to define what "prepared" means in regard to mountain travel.

Since this thread started because of ultra-runners being caught unprepared in cold and wet conditions: Simply carrying a garbage bag with holes cut for head and arms could well have prevented the hypothermia that stopped them.

Steve,

A 33 gallon trash bag does not have a hood...the user would have to have a hat to retain some noggin heat. It is been than nothing but not by much.

I carry a few with me all the time give to me people caught betwix and between...since I do not count grams.

Here's how to make a poncho that covers both your head and your pack using a trash bag

trashbag survival tips

Works well until brushed up against a sharp limb, razor-sharp Whitebark pine bark, or a rock, or a swinging hiking pole tip.

May be okay for a limited "3 hour tour" or an emergency kit in the trunk of your car or daypack, but I would not trust it beyond that. Even 6 mil plastic can rip.

I am sure there will be testimonials about the durability, convenience,and lightness, but Murphy is everywhere.

The first order of business is survival - that means staying dry.

A bright orange bag will give you a signalling function with no extra weight.

Just don't try it with a white bag.

Harvey,

Thanks for the picture. I only seen people use them with their head out. I never had the need to use one myself.

For a practice run of this magnitude, I think they should be able to carry more substantial survival gear than a trash bag. Yeah, it's better than nothing, but for 19 ounces of gear like I showed above, they could have a tarp shelter and an insulation layer under an actual waterproof breathable jacket. The 11 oz poncho-tarp Steve uses would be another great alternative to ride out a storm, but difficult to run with.

Ultra-marathon runners could learn a thing or two from ultralight or superultralight backpackers. Now if I could only learn to run that far...

Unless you're doing the AT