Mt Whitney Zone
Posted By: Steve C PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/07/15 07:52 AM
The Pacific Crest Trail Association (PCTA) has posted new rules and regulations on their web site. Here is the link:
          PCT Long-distance Permit FAQ

In the past, they charged PCT hikers a $15 Whitney Zone access fee (which was forwarded to Inyo N.F.), for anyone who might want to hike out to Whintey Portal via the main trail. They have completely eliminated that from their permits, telling hikers that their permit no longer gives them access to hike down the main trail to Whitney Portal. This access fee was often mistaken as a fee to hike to the Whitney summit, which was never the case.

Here is what the new rules say:
Quote:
Can I summit Mount Whitney?

From the west where the PCT is: PCT hikers and riders may go from the PCT to the summit of Mt. Whitney and back to the PCT. There is no fee, nor any additional permits needed.

To/from the east near Lone Pine, Calif.: The PCT Long-Distance Permit does not provide access east from the Mount Whitney summit to Whitney Portal. Additionally, the PCT Long-Distance Permit does not provide access to the trail from Whitney Portal. Access into the Inyo National Forest Mount Whitney Zone and down the Mount Whitney Trail is no longer allowed to holders of the PCT Long-Distance Permit. No permits will be issued for trips originating from Whitney Portal. For information on entering the Inyo NF Whitney Zone, visit www.fs.usda.gov/inyo or contact Inyo National Forest Wilderness Permit Reservation Office, 351 Pacu Lane, Ste 200, Bishop, CA 93514 or (760) 873-2483.

The other change this year is to limit starters at or near the Mexican border to 50 people per day. High number last year was April 1 (>100 starters), while March 31 and April 2 had only a handful, so the 50 person limit should spread out easily.

I spoke to two PCTA staff people and they indicated the Whitney changes were made on their own, to take pressure off the Whitney trail.
There was a question posted about this very issue recently from a hiker planning to resupply at the Portal. The announcement language seems to indicate that Inyo NF was allowing this resupply option, but is no longer doing so.

If they were charging all PCT hikers the $15 access fee, which was then given to Inyo, then Inyo NF just lost about $20,000/yr by this change. That special fee money would be legally required to benefit the Whitney Zone. Considering the low percentage of PCTA hikers that actually go down and back up the MMWT, this was probably a good deal for Inyo financially, while providing some flexibility for some hikers to resupply. I'm guessing there was an incident or incidents that precipitated this change. Or maybe there were just a lot more hikers using this option. Another impact of the "Wild" effect?
Posted By: wbtravis Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/08/15 07:11 PM
It's government stupidity at its finest. This ranks right up there with the exit permit.

How many through hikers per day go over this pass in May-June? Most will go over Cottonwood for resupply and either go back that way or over Trail Crest because of the ease of getting to WP. There will be no $15 fee because these folks are walk ups. Just more dollars spent writing up permits. Just let the folks go over with the permits they have. I can guarantee these few people will not ruin the wilderness experience of the MMWT quota crowd.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/09/15 04:36 AM
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
It's government stupidity at its finest. This ranks right up there with the exit permit.


Might want to read the original story again, there WB: this was the PCTA's decision.
Salty, it doesn't seem that clear cut. The PCTA wrote, "Access into the Inyo National Forest Mount Whitney Zone and down the Mount Whitney Trail is no longer allowed to holders of the PCT Long-Distance Permit." But the PCTA doesn't have any authority to allow, or not allow, access to the Whitney Zone.

Seems like there must be more to this story. Why would the PCTA eliminate this option? Perhaps some people didn't want to pay the $15 and that screwed it up for everyone else, since they probably couldn't differentiate who paid the Whitney fee on the Long-Distance Permit vs who didn't pay. Maybe that's it.
Posted By: Steve C Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/09/15 07:45 AM
The two people I spoke to gave several reasons:

* PCT thru-hikers seldom use Whitney Portal for resupply. Most go from Walker Pass to Kearsarge. It is easier to walk out via Horseshoe Meadows, too.

* Many PCT hikers were paying for the permit thinking they needed it to summit Mt Whitney.

* PCTA felt their hikers shouldn't add to the crowding already on the Whitney Main Trail.

They did not mention any troubling incidents or anything like that.
Sorry about belaboring the point here, but #1 and #3 don't synch up - if few PCT hikers are resupplying at WP (as we assumed), then they aren't really adding much to the crowding. #2 sounds like the PCTA misunderstood the permit requirements until now. To write that "it is no longer allowed" implies a change in regulations or interpretation of regulations, which is beyond the authority of the PCTA. Poor choice of words I suppose. It still leaves open the question of whether or not a PCT hiker has an option to pay $15 directly to Inyo to resupply at WP. I'm guessing that option was never fully legit in the first place.

The end result is that Inyo fee income to manage the Whitney Zone just dropped about $20,000/yr, and we're even less likely to see PCTer's on the east side.
Posted By: wbtravis Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/10/15 01:21 AM
Hmmm...how can an association without the government's permission issue a permit or make a rule? The government is involved...it has to be. Then, there is the enforcement issue, who is going to do the enforcement? The next to non-existent LE rangers.

As for crossing a pass to get into Lone Pine in May or June...that has to be Cottonwood. Getting to a 13,600' with minimal gear and in a lot of cases minimal to zero skills does not make a lot of sense. I have met up with thru-hikers crossing Cottonwood for resupply a few times in June. Even in big snow years this pass in manageable in early June. Something Trail Crest, I am sure, is not.

Again, this is stupid as stupid can get.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/10/15 02:22 AM
WB: As I said: read the post. It plainly states that the PCTA simply stopped offering the WZ resup permit option, on its own, to help take pressure off the zone. Nothing to do with making a rule. And PCTA issues the PCT permits under an interagency agreement.

What's the big deal? You said yourself the Trail Crest is not a great option for resup in June any way. Doesn't affect Cottonwood. Hard to understand exactly what your objection is here.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/10/15 02:29 AM
SN: Where do you get the $20,000 figure? That would be the equivalent of over 1300 PCT hikers resupplying through the WZ. I don't know the actual numbers, but I would be amazed if a tenth that many PCT hikers actually resup through the zone every year.
Quote:
And PCTA issues the PCT permits under an interagency agreement.


Exactly. Some people thought the new 50 person limit per day at the border was the PCTA over stepping their authority but it's the Forest Service that is implementing the changes and the PCTA complies with their regulations when issuing permits.

There will naturally be some over lapping due to no integrated system between the two showing the number of permits issued so if the local Forest Service issues 15 permits to local section hikers and the PCTA meets their 50 then it is what it is.
Originally Posted By: saltydog
SN: Where do you get the $20,000 figure? That would be the equivalent of over 1300 PCT hikers resupplying through the WZ. I don't know the actual numbers, but I would be amazed if a tenth that many PCT hikers actually resup through the zone every year.

That was the assumption that I made - that the $15 fee was mandatory for the PCT Long Distance Permit (PCT-LDP), whether they resupplied or not. There were 1,400 permits issued in 2014. That's $21K based on those assumptions. But are those assumptions valid? I don't know, but I could've stated my assumptions better.

If the Whitney Zone access were an option on the PCT-LDP, then the permit would have to identify who paid the $15 and who didn't. Kind of like getting special tags on your fishing or hunting license, or motorcycle cert on your drivers license. That's why I assumed it was just a fee all PCT hikers paid with the Long Distance permit.

Maybe someone who actually went through the old PCT-LDP process could clarify this. Its a bit of a moot point now with the new rules, but I'm curious.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/11/15 02:15 AM
Not included in the PCTA permit: it was definitely an option. Very clear from the wording on the site. SO it is a small loss to Inyo. Based on the high level of cooperation between PCTA and the agencies it coordinates with, I think there is a high likelihood that this was something worked out with Inyo. Inyo still honors wilderness permits from all other jurisdictions without limits, fees or quotas, and anyone summiting from Guitar can tell you the numbers are considerable.
Thanks for confirming the $15 fee was optional. When you think about it, there should never have been any fee at all. Summiting from the west has always been free. Likewise exiting Trail Crest should also be free and no quota, just like any other hiker starting from outside Inyo. So the $15 fee was a mistake all along as I see it.

But whatever money Inyo was getting by mistake, its over. And now PCT hikers are the only people who can't exit over Trail Crest after starting from outside Inyo NF. Not many did that anyway, but no more.
It was definitely optional when I got my permit a few years ago.

However, most people I knew paid it - it wasn't just an exit fee, it enabled you to re-enter at Whitney Portal. Realistically, most thru-hikers exiting at a point are going to re-enter at the same point, so it was necessary and not a mistake.

Since most thru-hikers apply for their permits several months before hitting Whitney, it was safest to tick the box, just in case you did need to resupply at that point.

The 1,400 permits include long section hikes - my guess would be that perhaps half of those are thru-hikes, of which maybe half ticked the Whitney box, so 350x$15=$5250.
Good summary. I agree, the only reason to pay the $15 fee would have been for access UP the Whitney Trail. People were paying the fee for other reasons by mistake, as reported by Steve.

The other issue not discussed is the people who got the PCT LDP as a work-a-round to the lottery and open pass to climb whenever. That was a dirty little secret I know some people were doing. I suspect that was the "incident" or "incidents" that drew attention to this matter. But again, I'm only speculating here.
Posted By: BobWilliams resupply at Le Conte Canyon - 02/14/15 12:52 AM
Planning on a resupply at Le Conte Canyon on Sept. 17, 2015. Anybody want to share the costs?
Posted By: saltydog Re: resupply at Le Conte Canyon - 02/14/15 02:20 AM
Originally Posted By: BobWilliams
Planning on a resupply at Le Conte Canyon on Sept. 17, 2015. Anybody want to share the costs?


Bob: Have you found the JMT facebook page?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2240988980/

Something like 10,000 members, and a great resource for just the kind of info you are looking for. Lots of through hike planning going on now.

Posted By: BobWilliams Re: resupply at Le Conte Canyon - 02/14/15 03:30 PM
Saltydog
Found the Facebook group.
Made a mistake on my resupply date. It is Sept. 18th, not the 17th.
Thanks
Posted By: wbtravis Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/14/15 04:47 PM
SD, I never said it was a big deal, just at it was a stupid idea...as stupid as the Trail Crest exit permit. If someone wants to climb Mt. Whitney, head down the MMWT into town for bad pizza and to pick up some packages at the post office...no one should impede this.

All anyone has to do is check the permit distribution for May and June to know this is not a problem. However, there is now has a solution. These unfortunate people now have to travel down to the ESIVC and pick up readily available permits rather than just head back up to Whitney Portal.

I said the government was involved, which they are. As the PCTA has acknowledged. That's it.

This was not well thought out.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/15/15 07:42 AM
WB: Where did the PCTA acknowledge that "the government was involved in this", exactly?
Posted By: wbtravis Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 02/15/15 04:45 PM
It's implied. They gave the PCTA agency powers. If the government did not agree with this bit of stupidity, it would have told them to rescind it.
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 03/01/15 06:01 PM
Originally Posted By: wbtravis
It's implied. They gave the PCTA agency powers. If the government did not agree with this bit of stupidity, it would have told them to rescind it.


It may be inferred, but it is expressly wrong:

"I spoke to two PCTA staff people and they indicated the Whitney changes were made on their own, to take pressure off the Whitney trail." Steve Cosner in the OP.

In any case no one who has a stake cares, and its no loss. I posted the question on the PCT FB page a while back, asking if anyone had used the WZ permit and if it will be missed. Onw woman had exited maybe Horseshoe (she wasn't sure) picked up a permit in Lone Pine and reentered Whitney Portal said she might do it again. Others said no way to a Whitney resup. Very few responses so not a statistically significant sample, but I take the non response as meaning so few people ever used the permit that it doesn't matter whether it was cancelled or not.
There may be more to the story, if anyone cares. We all seem to agree that relatively few people resupplied through WP, so it wouldn't take much "pressure off the Whitney Trail." Also, the PCT crowd passes through the southern Sierra fairly early in the season when the trail is not as impacted. Furthermore, PCT hikers are highly unlikely to camp along the trail. So if that's the whole explanation for this policy change, to take pressure off the trail, this change will have very little effect.

The next simplest explanation I can think of (using the principle of Ockham's razor) is that a few people created an incident or incidents that brought attention and resulted in a policy change. Inyo has lost a significant amount of revenue and PCT hikers have lost an exit option that everyone else has who started their hike from outside Inyo jurisdiction (reentry back UP the trail is another matter). Something triggered this change. I'm suggesting there is a little more to this story if someone cared enough to keep digging into it. But that's the big question, who cares enough anyway?
Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 03/03/15 07:51 PM
I don't see how Inyo has lost any significant revenue, or how anything at all has been lost. Few, if anyone, seem to have ever used it. As for Occam's Razor, it requires not only a simpler explanation, but a simpler explanation that accounts for all of the known facts. Such as: let's eliminate the Whitney option: no one loses, because no one is using it, and we gain PR points.
Originally Posted By: saltydog
I don't see how Inyo has lost any significant revenue, or how anything at all has been lost. Few, if anyone, seem to have ever used it. As for Occam's Razor, it requires not only a simpler explanation, but a simpler explanation that accounts for all of the known facts. Such as: let's eliminate the Whitney option: no one loses, because no one is using it, and we gain PR points.

The amount of revenue lost is unknown, but a lot of people were paying $15 per hiker to Inyo for access to the Whitney Zone. I posted the maximum if all 1,400 PCT hikers paid ~ $20,000, but that's not correct because the fee was optional, not required. britonwhit(ney) posted an estimate of 350 hikers paid the fee ~ $5,000.

1. Some amount of annual revenue to Inyo has been lost, I don't care to do the research, but I suspect its a significant amount (probably 1,000's of dollars per year) and it added up over the years.

2. Access has been lost for PCT hikers to legally exit from Trail Crest. They are no longer allowed to even EXIT anymore. Everyone else starting their hike from outside Inyo IS allowed to EXIT.

So with these two negative impacts, I disagree that "no one loses."

Regarding Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation for a policy change involving public agencies is that something happened to create a reaction. Public agencies are by nature reactionary, not proactive. We all agree this new policy will not have a significant benefit for the Whitney Zone. Therefore, its highly UNlikely that the PCTA suddenly decided one day to make a policy change that does almost nothing beneficial, but it negatively impacts hikers and Inyo revenue. And there's no way they would do this without coordinating with Inyo NF who was receiving the permit fees and policing the trail.

So the simplest explanation to me is that the existing system was being abused somehow, and that drew attention, which caused a reaction (the policy change). That a small percentage of people would ruin things for everyone else, well that too is the simplest explanation for our entire system of laws and rules.
It strikes me that the process of potentially substantive change to wilderness access is starting. I wonder where it ends.

Given all the other access changes, its clear that JMT hikers in particular (see the yahoo JMT forum) have put considerable effort into finding legal ways to hike the JMT. The PCT permit simply required an intent to hike 500 miles. It would therefore have enabled a way around the new Yosemite/Donohue restrictions for JMT hikers.

Given that at least one other wilderness area (Hoover) is reportedly no longer issuing what would otherwise be an entirely legal permit for JMT hikers (i.e. to enter Hoover then into Yosemite, then onto the JMT/Whitney) its not surprising that there appears to be a coordinated crackdown on any permit that might provide a loophole. The Donohue pass limits could have much wider implications for wilderness travel.

I reckon that very broadly half the thru-hikers our year had a whitney permit. My wife & I certainly did, even tho' we had no intention to exit that way, but for $15 (in the context of a $5-10k hike) it was a cheap insurance policy in case we needed to. Hence my 350 hikers estimate.
Originally Posted By: britonwhit(ney)
It strikes me that the process of potentially substantive change to wilderness access is starting. I wonder where it ends.

Eventually, something like this, at every trailhead...

Posted By: saltydog Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 03/05/15 05:52 AM
SN: You surprise me.

First, I have done the research, and it shows that the revenue from PCT hikers using the Whitney Zone $15 permit for resup is bupkis. That is of course, an approximation. Your assertion, that "a lot of people" were paying the $15 fee, is admittedly without research. Its speculation. As is Britonwhtny's data.

Second, the fact that no one seems to care that PCT hikers are being prohibited from exiting at Whitney seems to indicate that they are not being allowed to do something that no one was doing anyway. You do not want to get into my dissertation on meaningless abstraction here. As in "Why aren't the rich resentful of the fact that they are not allowed to sleep under bridges?"

So you have successfully established that Inyo is losing no revenue for which there is any evidence, and that zero hikers are being deprived of a route that no one was using.

Now, as an engineer, you should appreciate that Occam's Razor explicitly applies to the known facts, by definition. In its usual form it is stated as follows: of the available explanations of the known facts, the simplest is the most likely correct.

In other words, you don't get to make shit up. Such as "the existing system was being abused somehow". The key word here being "somehow". That's speculation, not known fact.
Originally Posted By: saltydog
SN: You surprise me.

First, I have done the research, and it shows that the revenue from PCT hikers using the Whitney Zone $15 permit for resup is bupkis. That is of course, an approximation. Your assertion, that "a lot of people" were paying the $15 fee, is admittedly without research. Its speculation. As is Britonwhtny's data.


What does your "research" show, "Bupkis" is not a number. It only takes 67 PCT hikers paying the $15 to reach $1,000 for Inyo each year, year after year. There were 1,400 PCT permits last year.

Let's go with your speculation then. So the PCTA suddenly decides one morning, on their own, to stop collecting $15 from PCT hikers for potential access to the Whitney Zone. Denying them access to exit over Trail Crest singles out PCT hikers as the only people who can't exit after starting their hike outside Inyo. That's a net loss in freedom for PCT hikers. And you're saying their motivation for this policy change is to improve their Public Relations since nobody is actually going into the Whitney Zone anyway. And you're also saying Inyo was not involved in a policy change that is inconsistent with their general policy of allowing hikers to exit if they start outside Inyo.

I don't see how this gives the PCTA a PR boost or why they would need a PR boost in the first place. Lastly, its questionable whether or not the PCTA has the authority to even make this change without approval from Inyo NF. The PCTA typically works WITH the permitting agencies, not in isolation.

It seems a lot more plausible that Inyo Rangers have been encountering more PCT hikers on the Whitney trail and that brought the issue to a head. This policy change is a logical result. All PCT hikers are now effectively banned from going up or down the trail.

EDITED typos and to add the last paragraph.
Posted By: Steve C Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 03/05/15 05:17 PM
Hey guys, I don't think anyone else here cares. Let's not turn this into a fight.

You both are correct in several points, and I have some information that I posted early on that I should repeat.

Here is what I know:
The PCTA dropped the Whitney Access fee unilaterally. When I talked with the two people, they did not mention any particular incident or issue that brought them to change the situation. The only things are that:
1. Practically nobody was using the Main Whitney Trail to exit or resupply, so the fee was being charged needlessly.
2. There was a large amount of misunderstanding by hikers thinking they needed to pay the fee to summit Mt Whitney.

The PCTA people I spoke with just felt that it was simply "a good thing" to take some pressure off the Main Mt Whitney trail. They thought they were doing the wilderness a favor.

I also think they were making their own lives easier by not collecting the money and not sending a check to Inyo. Handling money is a big deal for agencies.

On the Inyo side, that office was taken completely by surprise by the change. The money coming in was significant enough that doing without it caused concern.

One of the two people I spoke with implied she was a USFS employee. But we all know different government offices do things without consulting others. I think that is the case here. I think it was a management decision made in a void.
Thanks, Steve, for posting "the rest of the story." The short version you posted earlier just didn't add up completely. I took your early report with a grain of salt, not knowing the source at PCTA.

This is not like the PCTA to act solo without consulting the responsible jurisdiction (Inyo NF). They messed up the entire process. When a public entity is going to make a decision that restricts access to our wilderness, however minor, they should be able to point to a specific problem and explain why their "solution" is necessary. That's basic public administration 101. In this case, there's no problem they can even point to, except PCTA having to collect money on behalf of Inyo. This is bad policy to restrict access in this manner, however minor, and the approach is all wrong. That's just my $0.02 and who really cares anyway.

Contrast that approach to Yosemite NP where they followed a reasonable process with the new Donohue exit permit. Many don't like the solution, but at least they were transparent with the public and the surrounding agencies. And the entire solution will be reevaluated in the comprehensive Wilderness Management Plan. That's how its supposed to work. I think we can agree on that, Salty?
Posted By: Steve C Re: PCTA changes Mt Whitney access rules - 03/05/15 08:54 PM
Regarding Yosemite... Actually, Yosemite people acted without much input from Inyo, too. At least that was the information I was given. Once the process blew wide open with lots of hikers and people giving input, they may have worked with Inyo.

But I think YNP tried to solve the problem from their end, which will result in more JMT hikers hiking northbound, or hiking from Reds/Agnew meadows INto Yosemite, then taking the YARTS shuttle back to Mammoth, and hiking south. Inyo even had a term for this: Just more "hikers on the bus".

Regardless of who is making new rules for whatever reason, my own personal opinion is that hikers are foolish to wish for a "wilderness experience" where solitude is a big part of their definition. There are SO MANY ways to find that wilderness solitude, but they should NOT try or expect to find it on the most heavily traveled trail in the Sierra.
Poor Inyo, they got the short end of both these sticks, losing revenue at one end and gaining overflow hikers at the other end. Ed Dunleavy at YNP mentioned to me they met with Inyo and Toiyabe NF but it was near the end of the process with the decision already made. He said there would be more opportunity for regional planning during the Wilderness Management Plan update. At least YNP tried to work with the adjacent agencies, even if it was very little and very late.

I'm still shocked the PCTA made a move like this without picking up the phone and discussing it with Inyo. That just didn't sound believable to me. But on the up side, I'm glad Inyo didn't initiate this action as a result of problems with PCT hikers on the Whitney trail, as I speculated. I'm glad to be wrong about that.
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