Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Backcounrty Packer Issue.....horse manure at campsite

I am not sure how the manly smell of horse manure has been elevated to some iconic status redolent of a "real America." It's brilliant PR. But I'll cheerfully match my experience and time-on-trail with anyone here and state clearly that the smell of manure and horse piss in a campsite is awful. If packers want to roll around in s**t all day, fine but they should have the basic manners (also required by USFS and NPS regulations) to rake it out of campsites. There was a site in LeConte last year that was occupied by three people for two days. They had 5 head of stock. They wrecked both the meadow and campsite which smelled horrible for 2 weeks after they left as well as being pawed up and chewed up. It was well within what's allowed by regulations.

I don't see people extolling the American virtues of living next to a sewage treatment plant... .

So how would the pro-horse crowd (or anyone else) react if, say, 15 boy scouts did the same amount of damage? Dug holes in the meadow, yanked up grass for beds, crapped and pissed all around the campsite? Why is it ok when horses are involved?

Developed campsites such as the one described are not allowed. My colleagues and I have spent years taking them apart, burning the benches, pulling the nails out of trees, packing out the wood burning stoves and water cans, finding the can dumps scattered all around in the rocks as well as buried. Tons and tons of this stuff. It's mostly gone but there's still major can dumps hidden around the older and less visited packer camps.

The one in Big Pete that Bob talks about (I think) is where we direct stock parties. However, if we're talking the same one, it doesn't have any benches etc. left.

What I'm concerned about is that Paul found a trail crew camp. They're not supposed to, but they do leave "improvements" up and those are scattered around the parks. A new superintendent, so we can only hope your letter was effective.

Even at their best (and there's a lot of very good packers nowadays) the impact of stock users on campsites and, especially meadows, is pretty outrageous. It would never be tolerated -- nor is it -- when humans cause the same level of impact.

And, not wanting to be seen as a "cranky" backpacker, I do have to say that until a critical mass of packers recognizes their actual impact is seriously disproportionate to the number of people they bring into parks and forests -- and works towards mutual solutions -- then I'm going to continue my cranky ways.

g.